[Spell Mastery for casters in 3.0]

Chill Fog is the MVP of the early game, when the enemy's tactics are basically 'swarm you with a bunch of dudes'. Then you just make a line with your dudes, toss a Chill Fog in front of it, and everything takes crazy damage and loses 20 acc/def. Just a single cast of that is enough from a Wizard to decide a fight in Act 1.

 

It's not as useful later though, as generally the enemies have nasty stuff they do beyond 'run at you at a shambling pace'. Chill fog won't stop them from doing the nasty to you, casting those CC's or nukes or whatever stuff you'd rather them not doing. That's why Slicken's so good; it gets out quick and stops them from doing anything. And at this point, a caster has more than just 2 to 7 spells, so it's okay it doesn't last that long; it's job isn't to win the fight by itself, but slow the nasties down long enough for the bigger guns to win the fight.

 

And Chill Fog still works great with it. Slicken them down, drop a fog on them, then Slicken them again with their now 28 point nerfed reflex score, as well as taking damage from the Fog. Used to be the old standby when they were all per-encounters. Tactic has to be used a bit more sparaingly now, of course, but it's still there. Can even take both as a per-encounter, if you want, as Wizzy level 2 spells aren't super impressive.

[So I just take apprentice sneak attack on everybody, right?]

Not sure there's enough damage talents to not take this if just going for max deeps. You've got focus, stance, and style of whatever weapon type at a min. Chanter+Flame lash makes Scion of Flames a no brainer as well. Leaves four talents.  For general talents, there's Vulnerable for those focused builds that already get more than 100% speed. Bloody Slaughter, which best case is a bonus .5 mod active for 20% of a mobs hp, which comes out to less overall, so that's out. Gallant Focus will need to be on at least one person. Maybe Outlander Frenzy for some class that isn't tanking Int? After that it's just various 0.25 racial mods, and I'd rather get a .15 mod that works against all 7 any day of the week.

 

So, even the weird outlier case will still have 1 talent spot open, and more likely two or three spots, so can't push it off the table with just general talents. It would have to be knocked down out by class ones in that case. Not a ton of classes have two damage talents to compete with it. Some classes though clearly won't want it. Ranger's the easy one, it has so dang many nice Pet talents to take it won't have room for this. Cipher's another, it has at least two, if not three class talents it wants.  Druid, Wizard, and Priest are casters and have better things to do with their time than maximize auto attack. Rogue can't take it, of course.

 

So, those 6 classes will probably  never take it. For the rest.....Fighter has a talents that's worse, and a questionable bonus knockdown. It'll probably take it. Barb has accurate carnage, but that's really it, so it's another. Pld I guess could have two FoD pumping traits if you really want it DPS for some reason, but it'd probably take it anyways as it helps maximize said FoD. Chanter could easily take it, it has nothing in it's class that mods damage, so worth it if Chanters roll is damage during those long waits between Invocations. Chanters do make nice guys to carry Galant's Focus, but that probably won't get in the way. Last is Monk who has one must take it Lightning Strikes, but pretty clear schedule after that, so it'd probably take it.

 

Of course, this is just if you want a class to focus just on damage. If you ever want something else, like double Save bonus on a char already maxxing both a saves attributes to own that save, this'll be the first knocked off the ledge. So, I guess to answer the initial question, less than half the classes will actually want this talent, and then, only if they're focused just on doing max damage.

[So I just take apprentice sneak attack on everybody, right?]

Hmm..well, I've not tested to make sure it's working as written, but I don't think it works for spells. So, might lay off it for a Wizard. And early on you might not be able to have 100% uptime on a sneak attack if you're in a non-flanking situation. And tanks might want to get their defensive talents early.

 

About 3rd is the earliest I'd take it. And since we have 8 talents to take nowadays, any class not going pure caster or tank will likely be taking it at some point. I think my last run, only Pallegina didn't take it, as she had to spend hers on defensive talents.

[Does Aloth spoil the twist or am I missing something?]

I remember seeing that on first playthrough, (only one I've used Aloth), and just skimming over it. So, even though it spoiled the 'twist', I didn't even notice it. Which I think it's sorta the problem. Unlike say, DA:I spending much of it's time subverting the in-game lore, in PoE we haven't been submerged in the lore long enough something like that to seem like a big deal.So, when he said 'oh, gods aren't real.' I was just, 'ah, cool, kthx'. I was still in the 'I don't know anything about this game, so just accepting everything I hear as truth' mode.

 

If this comment had come in the middle of a 3rd game, after two games of dealing with Gods and all that nonsense, I would seized on it an instant as it woulda been a big deal. Instead of just picking the hilarious 4th option.

[Zauhua or Eder? (using SoEP)]

Yeah, it depends on how you're playing. A non-caster play through I imagine it'd be easy to rack them up. A caster play through my alpha strike generally CC's the entire enemy front line and they quickly lose from there. Heh, a big reason I hadn't used a caster team since my initial run of the game almost a year ago.

 

But that's a good point on the fists; Durgan Steel is up pretty dang limited considering each character would like to use 3 ingots of it ideally. Having one char being just fine not using two on the weapons is a big boon.

 

But really, a Monk's just a better fighter when it comes to dealing damage. That issue I had where Zahua wasn't getting wounds? If your problem is the poor enemy isn't doing damage to your team, I think we're at the point where it doesn't much matter what generic dude is swinging weapons at things that can't fight back.

[Zauhua or Eder? (using SoEP)]

If your monks getting wounds, he'll surpass the fighter. Fighter's DPS boost come from a .25 bonus mod, and 20% speed boost passive. Also has some CC and movement through Knockdown and Charge, but both only have two shots, so they not great for the few longer fights.

 

Monk can get a +25% post mod damage boost, and 25% speed boost from lightning strikes, pretty much surpassing fighter with just one move. Then they can toss out some CC and +50% damage CAoE so long as they get wounds, adding up to a lot more damage than a fighter will do.

 

Though, I cracked out my original team that I hadn't touched since April to do WM1+2 with, to knock it down with new companions. That team had Aloth and Durance in it, and with them CC and debuffing the enemy, and buffing the team, as well as 2 barbarians with CC weapons, most fights poor Zahua wasn't getting hurt. I guess I could have Devil start off with a shot to his back, but that kinda seems a bit on the power-gamey side for my taste.

[WTH invincible mercenary]

Does sound like Unbending. It's surprising how much that heals. I think one of the Mercs in the early Shipment quest in the Meadows can do it, too. Kinda surprised we don't see it more often throughout the game, as I imagine much of the Kith we fight are, well, fighters.

[Teach Me How to Barb My Fellow Pillarites]

I agree that Barbs are a one trick pony, and that trick is Carnage. Pretty much the entire rest of their Kit is very underwhelming. But that one trick alone makes them just fine, and probably the best non-caster class at high levels of optimization. There's a reason half of Boer's posts about nutty game breaking things involve carnage. And this is even after Carnage took a big a hit too its cheese!

 

As for how to use, just need to work the accuracy and attack speed formula's, same for any class. Difference is, if you do it right, anything caught in Carnage's AoE is immediately taken out of the fight. Still can't deal well with casters at range, and has no real special ability to not get owned by CC, but everything moving towards your side of the field just runs into a blender.

[Spell Mastery for casters in 3.0]

 

One thing I've noticed about myself is that the more times I play through the game, the less I'm interested in the role-playing and the more I try to turn it into a purely tactical game. That's because I've heard the story already. I think we compulsive re-players just have to remember that this isn't supposed to be a purely tactical game; it is a role-playing game, and the design is appropriately focused around that. If we treat it as a purely tactical game, some things which are designed to feel like failures won't feel like failures to us (like abusing resting). But that's a problem with us, not with the game.

 

I get that way too, to the point where I've frequently wished their was some sort of 'arena' option. Something that would just have the fights in a rough order of how you run into them, with breaks every so often between them heal up, choose gear upgrades, and level. Just speed through the game with soley the tactical parts. Be much easier to balance a mode like that, as well.

 

Also completely pointless to design, as I bet less than 1% of folks who get these games replay it the 5+ times needed to reach that state of mind.

[Too much text ......]

I mean, I'm not arguing that it's the only genre that has limitations placed on it's concept that aren't inherent to the medium itself. I'm just saying, for Japanese VN's, that limitation is it's got to have little girls in it.

 

And I could totes see JP PS:T VN; pre-teen Ravel (ugh, could even fill the tentacle spot without breaking lore), gender flip and de-age Dakkaon, make fireboy a fire girl and clearly Modron is now a robo girl. Heck, Morte's already a perfect Bromatic Foil too! Wouldn't have to alter the story a great deal, just add the mandatory teasing and away we go.

[Too much text ......]

Yeah, the Nitro Plus stuff is pretty much what I mean when JP VN try to be more than just romancing little girls. It's still gotta have those little girls, but it'll try to do something not entirely insipid with them. Just a fact in JP, if you want a VN, you can't still start fresh; it has to have at it's core the dating sim element. Some folks, like NP, build some decent stuff on that, but they're not free to start wherever they want.

[Act 3 difficulty?]

I agree with liking games that let you hit the max, then let you take a good third of the game or so to use that power. Not so much games that only let you hit the cap right at the end, or worse, force you to go grind or something to get abilities you'll never need.

 

That said, while the scaling helps, it doesn't quite go far enough. Act 3 scaled up when I went that at level 10 was pretty rough in Elmshroud, Dragon fight, and Simoc. (I don't remember anything else in there being tougher.) If I had down WM first, rolled in at 16? Woulda been a joke. So I tend to save WM for last, as WM2 still has some tough fights, even on 16. Of course, the issue there is the whole, 'best gear in the game, but since I saved this for last, I only get to use this to hurt Thaos'.

[Triggering Durance and Grieving Mother]

I've gotten them all just by spamming rest at Caed Nua, even when I otherwise never used them. You have to progress a certain amount through the game, of course, so you can't just rest spam and get it done right away, but definitely by the time you've spoken with the Gods you can rest spam to finish them.

[Spell Mastery for casters in 3.0]

Yeah, me neither. I dislike having to 'self police' and make my own rules for what seems to be 'fair'. I tend to do it all of my games (no supply crawlers in SMAX, SCC in FFT, etc), but it's waaaaay more fun to have to push it to the limit and work the system to its bones, rather than sit there and decide how much of this meat I need to leave on it before I get too fat. I'd really enjoy a strict per rest system; sadly, Pillars doesn't (or any CRPG, really) offer that. But now I should really take my own advice and be quiet, heh.

[Spell Mastery for casters in 3.0]

I think the big issue with a 'rest' system, is it depends on, well, there being some defined interval for what a 'rest' is. Every (that I know of) game to employ a 'rest' system hasn't really done that. Leading to what Braven posted, where the distinction between 'per rest' and 'per encounter' can only be manually enforced by the player. His attempt to say the 'time' is a punishment to the player, and thus Pillars restritcions is actually there, doesn't really hold water. Instead, while it's not quite as bad as Braven said (every encounter is tech per rest), it can get close enough to not be a meanigful distinction, especially later in the game where you have so many resources at hand, you can go Nova multiple times per rest.

 

I mean, I love the idea behind per rest. I'm all about some resource management. I'd rather be forced to win fights well, than something like Dragon Age, where you just have to be able to win somehow.

 

But I doubt we need yet another thread rehashing this debate, especially somewhat deep in a thread, so we probably shouldn't get too much into it.

[WM II items]

Guys this Morning Star is just insane. It not only steals spells but you can also spam cast them. It's not like you steal one spell, cast it and it's gone - no. It's like the Grimoire Imprint: you steal a spell and then can cast it as often as you like in a certain amount of time (which is very long). I just ran into a horde of Ogre Druids with a barb and hit them with this morning star. At once I had Calling the Worlds Maw and two other spells. I then started casting Calling the World's Maw and never stopped doing it. The Ogres never stood up again. Great Synergy with Blood Thirst by the way: because of the offensive spells you will kill a foe now and then. That will nullify your recovery. This weapon is great on every sturdy frontliner with good ACC and good INT and decent attack speed. I imagine dps Caster-Paladins with all those on-kill-effects. 

 

 

Well....that's just nutty. Also has one of the two DPS enchants, making it a solid beatstick against non OP classes. Hmm...can't think of a class that could better advantage of it than a Barb off the top of my head. As you said, Blood Thirst for spells is pretty sick, and I bet most passives for other classes don't work well with spells. Maybe a Fighter, to Charge to the mage of choice, Knock Down so he can't cast while you steal his spells with extra armored fighter attack speed, Charge out when you got what you wanted, and activate Fighter Acc boost (which I think is unversial), then begin the spell spamming?

 

Can you steal spells from you allies by chance? That could be interesting.

[is Guardian Stance any good?]

Generally, no, It's pretty terrible. Maybe with some sort of Deflection stacking plan, it could be useful. But for the overwhelming amount of situations, it's a bad call.

[Too much text ......]

 

Did...I see PS:T compared to a JP VN? I guess if one looks at what the medium could be, and not how it's actually implemented, I could see it. But off the top of my head, I'm not thinking of a great many that even get close to trying to do something like that. The genre is pretty overwhelmingly geared in a more...physical direction? Even the ones that try to more than that still have to start with that premise as it's core, as that's just how things are done in the land of Japan.

 

But as for the Text in Pillars, I've never had a problem with it at all. It's not like Hong Kong was, with the most pointless NPC's would yammer on about things both boring and unconnected to anything.

 

I do agree though that the demo that likes PS:T isn't exactly the same demo that would like something like IcewindDale.

 

It's funny, I would actually pay big bucks for a PS:T visual novel. Hmmm... Maybe something to look into.

 

Oh, I could def see PS:T, or something similar, making a kick ass VN. The medium is perfectly capable of excelling at telling that kind of story. I'd honestly prefer it; what gameplay there is in Torment just gets in the way.

 

It's just Japan has chosen to use the VN medium has led to a genre with a rather...different..focus. Ugh, now I'm thinking of a pre-teen Really 700 Years Old Ravel in some weird love rhombus with Anna, Grace, and TNO. These are not good thoughts.

["Glass Tsunami" - The Unbreakable Glass Cannon (preview fighter build)]

I completely agree. I always argue for rule changes on higher difficulty, rather than just tuning numbers up (similar to what Bioware tried a few times), to encourage more complex strats on higher difficulties, while not trying to find a middle ground with those who just want things easy-breezy. I like making time a factor in this game; we Watchers are apparently going crazy, but outside like one Eder conversation, that never comes up. It'd be nice if the resting was the terror it's supposed to be for the Watcher, rather than a way to make large parts of the game a joke.

 

The only other answer I have is a Souls style resting, or old school WRPG, where you basically lose all progress if you rest, and have to fight your way back to where you were all over again, so resting is more a 'restart' than a 'refresh'.

 

Sad thing is it's so easy to 'abuse' resting. Anytime it's time to zone transition, it's easy to click on Caed, rest, then click where you want to go. The only cost is two load screens, which depending on your Rig, are very minor, or a good excuse to alt-tab for a bit. Combined with almost every zone having at least one camping supplies (and many have even more), every zone is at least two full health of the party, with 2 more in reserve. (Which, those in reserve are a little more annoying to replenish, as it's not just all alt-tab'n). Two per zone is plenty to never have any issues with anything, assuming the player is familiar with the game.

 

As to Wound Binding being useful in rest restrictions, yeah, it's great there, especially for someone like me who avoids the casters due to them being OP, even with restrictions. That means Health's what makes take a knee, and 40% goes a long way.

["Glass Tsunami" - The Unbreakable Glass Cannon (preview fighter build)]

I guess 'needed' is an imprecise term. More, for most compositions, it literally does nothing, which is why folks have disdain for the talent at first glance. App. Sneak Attack, while that .15 mod might not be 'needed' to beat any fight, at least it does something. And it generally gets added to a pool of mods, that while not 'needed' individually, the collection of them makes a large difference, so some certain threshold is required.

 

With how easy resting is in this game, unless restricting oneself, health dropping below 50% without resting to reset everything just doesn't come up ever. So, the talent just ends up literally doing nothing.

 

Of course, it's different for this build, which literally depends on tapping into health to fuel a strange character idea. I'm not saying it's bad for this build (I think it's pretty amazing for this build), just explaining why most folks think the talent is horrible, despite being sorta like +8 Con, where App. Sneak is like +5 might.

[Too much text ......]

Did...I see PS:T compared to a JP VN? I guess if one looks at what the medium could be, and not how it's actually implemented, I could see it. But off the top of my head, I'm not thinking of a great many that even get close to trying to do something like that. The genre is pretty overwhelmingly geared in a more...physical direction? Even the ones that try to more than that still have to start with that premise as it's core, as that's just how things are done in the land of Japan.

 

But as for the Text in Pillars, I've never had a problem with it at all. It's not like Hong Kong was, with the most pointless NPC's would yammer on about things both boring and unconnected to anything.

 

I do agree though that the demo that likes PS:T isn't exactly the same demo that would like something like IcewindDale.

[Okay, but seriously now, why isn't Bash a talent?]

At the very least, I'd have given Bash a very high interrupt effect, 1.5 sec or something. Make the reason you want to use bash is for the tank to lock down it's target, not for damage.

["Glass Tsunami" - The Unbreakable Glass Cannon (preview fighter build)]

Like Con itself, Wound Binding usefulness largely depends on how you feel about resting. If you rest as much as the game throws at you, even with back tracking, it's not super amazing. Might still be okay for a later talent, as a lot of builds don't have a great choice from that last one or two picks. Outside of maybe trying to face tank a dragon or something, for a single fight, I've rarely found my health pool to be much of an obstacle. (That said, I myself play with heavy rest restrictions, so I really like any source of con and health. One reason I always make sure to feed Durance to the Blood Pool. Also he deserves it for being a horrible person.)

[Fun Ability Synergy: Sacred immolation and Aegis of Loyalty]

Yeah, I like it. Charming is one of the (many, to me) bleh tactics in the game, and this pretty much shuts it down for as long as the Flames last. Which, I think is plenty long for any of the charm based fights I can think of. I also just take both Will save talents and wear a +15 Charm defense item on the Pld to make sure it works.

 

Priests are pretty amazing, of course, but it's really just casters who are amazing. I'd say frequently going through the game with none of the casters would be surprising, but if taking along druids and Wizzy's but no Priests, it's just fine. Priest do OP things to your team, the others do it the enemy.

 

On that note, Sig is funny illathid. I guess Wizards don't -need- to be That Dude, but certainly doesn't mean they weren't going to make him that Dude anyways, heh.

[Grieving Mother might be the best written NPC character I've seen in an RPG game]

I really loved her in the initial conversation, and thought she'd be one of my faves, and another great MCA char. By the time I had beat the game, I'd soured on her, and while I still took her a lot, that was largely because it was either her, or take one of the OP casters, who I avoid.

 

She never really goes anywhere past that first convo, and it really feels like she was written for a different way the story was going to go, and they sorta just cut out and mashed together enough to keep her in the final game. I mean, I don't find her unbearable to have in the party, like the new Maneha char, but her story either doesn't sync up with how the rest of the game presents it's lore, or she's just non-existent it in.