[Numbers for (almost) automated Dorudugan fight]

11 hours ago, yorname said:

Probably I'm the last one to know it, Dorudugan isn't immune to knock up. During test with 35 INT and Arkemyrs wondrous torment the effect from Mule Kick lasts 3s. Not as long as petrification but weapon accuracy is also way easier to stack than spells. Unluckily it's not technically a interrupt so tactician doesn't get auto refund.

Skyward kick should work, regaining 3 wounds should be doable. (Hylea's Talon, Voidwheel, Nalzpaca, Enduring Dance...) 

[How make Barbarian better at single target?]

Also remember that Barbaric Retaliation has an intresic +16 accuracy and +4 Penetration compared to normal attack (nothing exceptional, most similar abilities have similar bonuses, albeit lower cause they are from lower tier). 

It might be useful if building upon axes, because they deal only splash damages which can be limited vs some bosses. 

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

7 hours ago, SenSx said:

Ok thanks.

Do you plan to make other changes that will only be effective on new characters ? 

I'm hesitant to start a new game or wait.

Only Serafen Wild Mind

[Classes that needs minmaxing more than others]

3 hours ago, thelee said:

konstanten is especially inefficiently distributed for precisely that trade off, sacrificing some choice stats (int and dex and perception) and investing way too much in constitution and unnecessarily in resolve (barbarians have a deeeep deflection hole to crawl out of so the 13 resolve feels like a waste). honestly his skald or howler options are real uninspiring (bad int, slow attacks, no perception to help crits). barbarian is at least workable since while he might be lame, at least he can be lame for a very long time with 17 con boosting a massive health pool.

At least a Skald Barbarian has to be on front row so its tanking stats are not wasted. 

But yeah, when thinking about poorly allocated stats, Konstanten is indeed the first to come to my mind. (Geomancer Maia has bad INT too, but at least has a Smart self buff). 

There is a reason why BPM raised all companions and si de kick stats by 2 (in total) and why I gave 1 of the points to Konstanten Intellect. 

[Classes that needs minmaxing more than others]

I think Intellect is probably the most important stat for min maxing.

Any build requiring Intellect have major issues when not having it.

Might is paramount for a healer. Might be less important for a damage dealer caster since high Perception instead can somewhat replace it. A few builds absolutely require high PER.

Keep in mind that a lower stat means another stat will be higher. And all stats are somewhat useful, even if more than a couple points of CON/RES on a backrow character can feel a waste. 

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

On 2/6/2024 at 5:32 PM, Elric Galad said:

SW/BW 0.625 focus per damages

BW generates 75% of DW focus vs full penetration without further lashes.

SA damages increased with BW, but only x1.33 :

With BW :        primary_weapon_final_dmg + [10 + (focus - 10) / 3] * [1 + 0.05 * (pl - 1)] * (1 + damage_bonuses + weapon_damage_bonuses)

BW generates 75% focus from DW so multiplicating by 1.33 will ensure similar damages for the raw damages part.

 

On 2/6/2024 at 5:32 PM, Elric Galad said:

Final (I hope) nutshell :

- BW does x1.2 weapon damages from DW
- BW provides x0.75 focus for spells from DW when full PEN (better ratio when underPEN, slightly worse with other lashes)
- BW does the same damages as DW for SA raw damages part with similar previous attack (the weapon attack part will do x1.2 weapon damages)

OK, I'm happy to announce that I haven't changed my mind again for about 48h, so I'm quite comfortable to implement this solution.

That said, BW may only increase SA damages by 1.33 when active (technical constraint, can't do otherwise). Which means it won't work at full focus.

That said, this isn't too much illogical since the bonus will be said to come from BW so it makes sense if it works only when active. Also SA is already a bit worse at full focus since missing the +20% Bonus damages for both the weapon and added raw damages, and CP raw damages lash for the weapon attack part. 

(so use BPM Tenuous Grasp or whatever)

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

11 hours ago, Ivanfyodorovich said:

I'm experiencing what seems like a bug, and wanted to check with folks before I do further testing. I'm playing a solo Corpse Eater on Normal, trying out all of the BPM updates. 

What I'm seeing is that my Corpse Eater food buffs are being cleared arbitrarily (not forced rests, as far as I can tell). I've at least observed it in Neketaka, but it may be happening other places, as well. This is annoying, slightly, but moreso, because I'm trying to maintain an injury to use Rekvu gear and the updated Vengeful Defeat passive. 

I need to test if this applies to any food buffs, but before I do, I wanted to see if other folks have observed similar behavior. 

My current run is with a Corpse Eater and his joyful companions. 

I think I have seen food buff cleared unexpectedly, but I have no idea if it's related to a forced rest because I have never been paying too much attention to that. All food buffs cleared, not just Kith Food. I'm pretty sure I have seen it with Inn bonus too (rested at Luminous Bath before the Quest... After a while there was only Adra Glow bonus, but not the rest one). 

I didn't care cause I love RP my party resting and having a good meal. 

 

Now for related BPM changes : all food was set to stacking but how could this be related? Also inn bonuses were already stacking and weren't modified by BPM so it can't explain why they went away too.

 

Possible theory : this is a vanilla bug, but the reason no one every spotted it was because once a food bonus was transformed into a stacking passive, it somehow becomes immune to the bug. 

Have you ever noted that inn bonus mysteriously go away in Vanilla game ? 

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

18 hours ago, yorname said:

But I agree the lash can't be too high because the AoE applications you mentioned. I'm still rooting for your 0.625 SW/BW solution

I changed my mind again cause I feared Cipher could become too much of a martial damages dealer, and I'm going to pick this solution you were rooting for.

 

SW/BW 0.625 focus per damages

BW generates 75% of DW focus vs full penetration without further lashes.

But I will still pick something from my previous solution, SA damages increased with BW, but only x1.33 :

With BW :        primary_weapon_final_dmg + [10 + (focus - 10) / 3] * [1 + 0.05 * (pl - 1)] * (1 + damage_bonuses + weapon_damage_bonuses)

BW generates 75% focus from DW so multiplicating by 1.33 will ensure similar damages for the raw damages part.

 

This is the safest solution cause it does not create raw lash monsters, but ensure DW does not provide a better raw lash than BW by the magic of SA.

 

Final (I hope) nutshell :

- BW does x1.2 weapon damages from DW
- BW provides x0.75 focus for spells from DW when full PEN (better ratio when underPEN, slightly worse with other lashes)
- BW does the same damages as DW for SA raw damages part with similar previous attack (the weapon attack part will do x1.2 weapon damages)

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

21 minutes ago, yorname said:

I was thinking maybe something can be done with SA too, but wouldn't it be extra complicated to describe, since SA is a core ability? I guess you need to make another version of BW for soulblade? Saying "does more damage with a tier 3 upgrade" in SA description at lv1 is weird.

Yes, just a note for soulblade BW. 

The actual effect will be coded within SA though, but you won't get indication it is there, only by SB BW.

 

Not entirely sure about setting BW to 25% raw lash. Feels a bit powercreeping.

But the SA change part would fix a big part of the issue.

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

10 minutes ago, SenSx said:

Thanks Elric for the update.

You confirm that some class specific changes (trickster nerf) and racial traits don't work on existants saves ?

It depends but they may not if they are always active.

Trickster nerf shoudn't work unfortunately.

10 minutes ago, SenSx said:

It has to be on new created characters ?

Yop, can't do better

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

13 hours ago, yorname said:

with *2 multiplier and 25% raw lash, the difference is 8%. IDK, if BW is "overall" 8% more damage it's probably worth considering, but we're only looking at a very specific use and the advantage is still so small that if we just occasionally cast a spell it disappears.

But I agree the lash can't be too high because the AoE applications you mentioned. I'm still rooting for your 0.625 SW/BW solution

Okay, after thinking about many solutions, I have the first proposal I feel satisfied about.

 

First why simply rising the focus gain for SW/BW does not satisfy me :
- low level power creep (minor)
- to be honnest, this one has a relatively high risk of introducing bugs and is annoying to fully test
- Major game design flaw : it would make BW / DW much closer in term of gameplay. Which isn't the point of mutually exclusive committing abilities.

 

So my idea : a big part of the issue comes from Soul Annihilition providing benefit as Biting Whip with additional flexibility. Soul Annihilation with DW will always be pretty equivalent as Soul Annhilation with BW but more flexible.

So why not just adjusting Soul Annihilation formula to ensure BW is always the better choice with it ? It makes sense after all that an ability used to increase weapon damage improve the unique weapon-based subclass ability of Soulblade.

 

Proposal :

1) Soul annihilation formula :
With SW/DW : primary_weapon_final_dmg + [10 + (focus - 10) / 4] * [1 + 0.05 * (pl - 1)] * (1 + damage_bonuses + weapon_damage_bonuses)
With BW :        primary_weapon_final_dmg + [10 + (focus - 10) / 2] * [1 + 0.05 * (pl - 1)] * (1 + damage_bonuses + weapon_damage_bonuses)
So Soul Annihilation would always be better since it generates 0.625* focus (with full PEN)

2) *Round up BT to +25% raw lash damages. This value ensure BT being strictly better than DW in case of full underpenetration (without further lash, but even with other lash, BT feels like way better in this case) .

 

Consequences for subclasses :

- Psion : meditates on the subject

- Soulblade : wanna do more weapon damages (including SA) ? Easy. Pick BW. Wanna be more versatile ? Pick DW.

- Ascendant : BW benefits a lot from subclass bonus focus generation. BW Ascendant would be doing x1.2 damages (counting the minus -10% additive damages as minus -5% multiplicative) and generates about 90% focus compared to vanilla cipher. Also once ascended (a bit harder to achieve, but you have tools to do so), BW is strictly better (cough cough Wall of Draining, Salvation of Time, etc...)

- Beguiler : Beguiler is quite a lot about casting. That said, if using a lots of cheap/AoE deception spell, Beguiler may need less focus. So it could make sense with a damage oriented multiclass to pick BW (Shattered Pillar, Rogue). This would create a versatile character, very focused on weapon attacks, but with backup deception spell (this would probably never be the most likely choice, but the important is that it could work)

- Vanilla : a bit like Beguiler without the benefit of other focus sources. Probably the worst pick for BW, but overall the worst pick for Cipher as a whole.

 

Note that the Soul Annihilation focus to damages ratio is around 0.25 * 2 (bonus damages) * 1.35 (PL) = 0.675 damages

BW "not-gained" focus to damages ratio for other class would be 0.25 / [0.5 - 0.25 * 0.5)] =  0.6667

We are at similar order of magnitude (when full PEN and without further bonuses benefitting more to Soul Annihilation such as lashes/sneak attacks). That's a bit "non-deactivable" "potentially ranged" soul annhiliation for everybody. I think it's OK when it comes to balance.

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

25 minutes ago, yorname said:

Can you make the shield from old "cannot die" effect visible, at least the duration?

I think the duration is visible. Granted that the shield only becomes active while Near Death. Before that, duration is infinite.

25 minutes ago, yorname said:

Also priests' resurrection still has cannot die effect, is it intentional that only they have access to it?

Yes, but it can't be extended and can only be cast from knockdown. So for each 30s of unkillability, you have to pay "1 wound".

Potion of final stand also has a non extendable cannot die effect. But since it is a consumable, number of uses per encounter is limited.

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

15 minutes ago, yorname said:

did a quick test, it's indeed 5%, and weapon part also benefits from PL.

the corrected result would be M<376/(108+135L), so even with a lash, DW needs a ~300% multiplier to match BW.

still, with 250% multiplier and no lash, the difference is very small:

DW 153.0625 vs BW 158.3625, a 3.46% difference

if change BW to 30% lash the difference is 10.7%, slightly more visible but probably not good enough

2.5 multiplier is super hard to get with anything but a mindstalker. 

x2 multiplier is a reasonable assumption I guess. 

 

Currently, I feel like 25% raw lash could be enough. Without further lash, it also has a strict advantage when missing 3 PEN or more (double damages, equal focus) . This is something. Underpenetration does happens, especially when using mortars or rods (and those are very optimal weapons for a cipher). 

Also the damages benefits is neat is certain cases. Such as when using big Active AoE from weapons or when multiclassed with Shattered Pillar. 

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

I think the main idea is to use a big weapon AoE such as thunderous report, then an empowered attack. 

 

I think it's fine if the class has more upside than downside since it's a companion class (looking at you Maia). Also the random part is so unpopular (even with more upside) that a little help won't hurt. 

 

3) isn't even a strict advantage since it force depleting your focus pool on an empowered ability, which one may not like. But since it's predictable, one can play around. 

 

Finally, Cipher subclasses tend to have more upside than downside IMHO. 

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

New try for Wild Mind : all following effects

 

 

1) 50% chance of +2 PL for 3s extended by INT on cast (most likely works as (1-50%)² for spell with dual attacks such as Mental Binding)

Roughly equivalent to a wizard specialization, doesn't not work every time but works on all spells.
+2PL 100% chances is a bit strong and not ideal vibe fluff wise. That is still +1 PL on average, with okay variance.

 

2) 20% chances of an additional effect, each with 2% chance

- -2 PL for 3s (extended by INT, reduced by RES not PL) (the +2PL version has 50% chances of happening)

- +2 Empower Point 

- -1 Empower Point 

- Foe Random Tier 3 Affliction for 8s vs Will (+2 Accuracy per PL beyond 0)

- Foe Random Tier 3 Inspiration 8s

- Push Target

- Echo Spell cast

- Foe set invisible for 15s (extended by INT, not PL) until next attack (note that it is on average 3 times less than current)

- Give Full focus

- Miscast :

     - 2.5 radius, Hostile only

      - Electricity Keyword 7 PEN elecricity damages

      - Empty focus, set to 0.75 base damages per focus lost 

      - Added PL Scaling (considered as Tier 0 ability) : +2 Accuracy, +0.5 PEN, %5 Multiplicative damages (a bit more generous scaling than usual)

 

3) Empowered Spell 100% chance of triggering miscast effect (basically Empowered spells are Soul Annihilation in an AoE).

Because I like the Miscast effect.

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

2 hours ago, yorname said:

from here

I think I probably saw PL affecting the weapon part when doing tests earlier today (20.3 roll with a sabre). Not sure as I'm not on computer right now.

Ok, but I suspect it is wrong for this part because I checked the code and it shows standard PL progression. And Standard PL progression is 5% multiplicative per PL above ability level.

(can't check in game now)

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

54 minutes ago, yorname said:

That's a pretty elegant solution. Other lashes will still make the end result favor DW a little bit, but with reasonable amount of lashes it's at least 15% more damage and 70% focus gain, not bad at all.

Still, such a solution would reduce the gap between both options... which is not ideal for dedicated playstyles.
 

Two considerations :

- the very existence of Soul Annihilation converting focus into damages basically makes Draining Whips provide similar benefits as Biting Whip but with flexibility since you can keep you focus. It is almost a design flaw. 

- 20% raw lash is already a big bonus. It can lead to degenerate situations if made too strong.

 

So my mind is really not set up about these.

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

3 hours ago, yorname said:

trying to get it clear from the basics:

set M = (1 + all_weapon_and_damage_bonuses), L = all_other_lashes_ratio, let a PL8 cipher do the alternative attacks with a sabre with average base damage of 16, look at 2 attacks:

OK

3 hours ago, yorname said:

DW: 16*M*(1+L) + 16*M*(1+L) + [4*M*(1+L)+7.5]*1.7*M

BW: 16*M*(1.2+L)+ 16*M*(1.2+L) + [2*M*(1.2+L)+7.5]*1.7*M

What is this 1.7 ? PL ? PL is 5% per level beyond 1 (or 0 ? not sure which level is soul annhiliation). So it should be 1.35.

Also don't PL multiplicative bonus applies to the physical part of Soul Annihilation as well ? (that's a real question. Note sure but it should)

 

That's just details but thanks you for the maths. 

3 hours ago, yorname said:

If we want DW < BW:

32*M*(1+L)+6.8*(1+L)*M^2+12.75*M < 32*M*(1.2+L)+3.4*(1.2+L)*M^2+12.75*M

M < 160/(68+85*L)

 

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

The other option is to give SW/BW a base focus ratio of 0,625.

Draining whip would only need to be +60% to match the previous value.

Ascendant bonus would be limited to +40%. Note that ascendant would get exactly as much added focus with this value. 0,625x40% = 0,25 (exactly what they get before).

 

Some stuff to check with Beguiler.

 

BT would provide 20% more damage and 25% less focus. (0,625x1,2 = 0,75). Seems fair.

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

I think my analysis is a bit biased by the fact that a non ascended ascendent has just better overall numbers than a normal cipher.

 

It deals about 5% less multiplicative damages while generating 1.5x0.95 time more focus. Even after DW, it is still 1.25x0.95 time more focus. The -1PL really isn't big here. It is intresically better. 

People tend to overlook that and just want to ascend, but in truth it is a very very solid subclass and the penalty is just that you have to manage your periodical focus depletion. 

 

I feel that BW having so much trouble to prove it is the better DPS option is an issue. Soulblade should really want to pick it because it fits their playstyle. 

Maybe 25% raw lash would ease the decision. It also perfectly compensate for 1 point of missing PEN. 

 

And in my experience BI is great but tend to make you loose momentum because it costs time and focus. So I would not count it as strictly mandatory. Especially since BW is a bit about getting a better momentum since you get some benefits one action sooner. 

 

By the way, do CP BW works with weapon active ability such as kitchen stove cone and Amira's wing Writting Wind? 

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

There are a tons of ideas there, and I thought about a modal too. Modal shall have a very clear gameplay related intention though, not just random mode / non random mod.

I also thought about a systematic PL increase upon casting but with a random value. Like +1-3 PL. So something random, but not too much, with 100% chance and only positive outcomes. The issue there is that with spell with mutliple attack loops it would proc at least twice and the game mechanics would make it stacks (and Cipher spells really love to have a separate attacks for main target and for AoE) .

Another idea would be to make the miscast AoE 100% chances on empowered attacks, like a desperate measure. Could be fun in addition to regular proc but might overcomplexify the subclass. It would go well with the tweak granting more Empower points than average.

Also I can't technically have more than 1 ability, so it's either passive, active or modals (with possible multiple effects and different proc chances but a single nature). Because technical reasons.

 

But many things are still possible. I just have to keep in mind the low enthusiasm about random negative effects but I always try to keep the original fluff of abilities. 

 

Let me think (but you can still suggest ideas).

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

I wonder about the passive being the cast of miscast AoE based on current focus, but without losing all focus and with obviously lesser values. 

Like your cipher untamed power always damages nearby foes. 

Sounds like a cipher spell version of carnage, maybe appropriate for a witch? 

 

Edit : which probably won't work very well cause spell with multiple "launch" would probably proc it multiple time. 

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

Expect a wide Wild Mind overall for next version.

Previously I put the Shock miscast AoE to Hostile only and divided its damages by 3. This was kind of bare minimum to make the subclass playable without big risk, but not really good either.

 

Wild mind has 20% chance to trigger 11 effects with equal probability. Here are their detail and my proposed changes. The idea is that positive effects shall be better advantages than their (corresponding) drawbacks. So even if random, the benefit would be more obvious. As a Companion subclass, it might be a bit better than average.

- +5 PL for 3s (extended by INT, not PL)

- -3 PL for 3s (extended by INT, not PL)

- +1 Empower Point -> rised to +2 (this is especially aimed to favor SC Wild Mind who can pick BPM Empower Talent more easily)

- -1 Empower Point 

- Foe Random Tier 3 Affliction for 8s vs Will (no direct change but gets +2 Accuracy per PL beyond 0)

- Foe Random Tier 3 Inspiration for 20 -> reduced to 8s

- Push Target

- Echo Spell cast

- Foe set invisible for 15s (extended by INT, not PL) or for next 2 attacks -> Set to 1 attack only (game sometimes consider some attacks to count for 2 anyway - strikes will afflictions and deep wounds sometimes count for 2, so this would give more consistent behavior)

- Give Full focus

- Miscast :

     - 2.5 radius, BPM already made it Hostile only

      - Add Electricity Keyword 7 PEN elecricity damages

      - Empty focus, set to 0.75 base damage per focus lost (vanilla : 1.5 but non-friendly, current 0.5)

      - Added PL Scaling (considered as Tier 0 ability) : +2 Accuracy, +0.5 PEN, %5 Multiplicative damages (a bit more generous than usual)

     => Overall big bad explosion which can turn the tide of a battle if you stay at melee range, have a bit of luck and store a lot of focus.

 

Basically Full Focus, Miscast and Echo Spell cast are quite powerful effects. The rest are more beneficial, but probably slightly annoying.

The thing is each effect has only 20% x1/11 to proc... which makes them a bit difficult to play around. That's why, after all these changes, I propose to set the effect chance to 55%. So each effect has 5% chance to proc. I thing this would make the subclass much more fun to play around, and even a bit powerful.

Note : The probability part shall be included in the nerf/non-buff package cause it could be annoying for players.

[Balance Polishing Mod Release 1.0]

10 hours ago, phanhaiminhkun said:

I just added experience with console commands to my character to test some builds. I played around a little bit with no cheating, and I still encountered this bug, so it's probably a game bug.

OK there was 2 ways of adressing the issue :

1) Correcting the progression table so picking Rapid Recovery would remove Constant Recovery. This is the cleanest. The issue is that only 1 mod can interact with the progression table (for exemple a  mod changing the Tier of 1 single ability would not work). Which means BPM would not have been incompatible with any of such mod.

2) The ugly one that involved tweaking BJ Rapid Recovery Values so having both Constant and Rapid Recovery active at the same time match the intention for BJ Rapid Recovery. 

 

I tried 1) but it didn't work somehow. So I did 2) and it's not so bad because of the absence of conflict. So in next BPM version, you'll still have both icons, but the overall effect would match the description (4 + 1/5 level with Constant and Rapid Recovery). 

[I slept on Sundering Blow done with a mortar]

7 minutes ago, NotDumbEnough said:

Hold a melee weapon in offhand to fool the game. But it doesn't work everywhere, you're not allowed to Mule Kick with a ranged weapon.

It does not work with normal primary attacks. It works with AoEs : Clear Out and Whirling Strikes (you'll get an attack from both melee and ranged hands.