Ruminate
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^ The only thing that affects everything is Dexterity. Everything else only affects recovery, including the Monk's Swift Strikes.
For all intent and purposes, Fighter is the class that can achieve the fastest attack+recovery time in heavy armor.
If Swift Strike's attack speed is actually recovery speed (i'm going to test this myself later today), then i'm at a loss on how you think the fighter's -20% bonus can achieve a faster recovery time in heavy armor over the monk's -25% bonus.
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patch 2.03 makes fighters undisputed king of single-target DPS imho
-20% recovery from armored grace
-16% recovery from pilferer's grip
second chance scale mail (thanks eder!)
= 1% recovery time without taking into account any DEX bonuses. Straight up broken! LOVE IT.
gee, i think i'll use my base 1% recovery high deflection / high accuracy / high health / high endurance fighter to dual-wield purgatory and resolution, or hey, maybe i'll use the speed and durgan steel enchanted blade of the endless paths instead just for laughs while he plays Lawnmower Man with his spinning motor-arms.
Sure, the rogue might achieve slightly higher dmg numbers per swing ON CRITS, but he has low deflection / low health / endurance, and with the same gear will have 21% recovery time.
dunno bout you but i know who'll i'll be using.
PS: This also means fighters will make EXCELLENT gunners and bow-men, btw. With 20 DEX (godlike, dex-Land), actually, make that 23 dex once you slap finneah's grace on him, i'm p. sure he's gonna out-DPS a ranger.
Hell, if you can't be bothered to go get pilferer's grip (a TWM unique that doesn't require combat besides killing the initial ogres attacking stalwart), you can just slap a Hide Armor on him and achieve 0% recovery time.
You're overvaluing recovery speed. This post explains it well:
https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/68171-josh-sawyer-visually-explains-attack-recovery/page-3
Pure attack speed modifiers affect everything, so a monk built for DPS is still going to run circles around a fighter built for DPS.
The fighter buffs mainly help shield users. Tanking on par with Paladins, but with a lot more damage potential. (especially noticeable is the buff to Clear Out. The damage doesn't appear to be based on weapons, so a shield user can make full use of it)
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And what are in your opinion the amazing Fighter abilities that no one brings up? What is the sine qua non of the Fighter?
Can't say these are necessarily sine-qua-non, but the abilities I would dearly miss if I played another class are Knock Down, Armored Grace, and the Specialization/Mastery chain. Sundering Blows is also pretty sweet (even though I still have to figure out what the icon is meant to represent.)
Force of Anguish can knockdown more than twice per encounter. Swift Strikes gives 20% attack speed instead of only recovery. Turning Wheel can give up to 50% multiplicative burn damage as opposed to 25% additive weapon damage.
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Before 2.0, my preferred frontline tanks consisted of a fighter and a paladin. After 2.0, my preferred frontline tanks consists of two paladins.
Even if the fighter's Defender was buffed again, i'd still prefer two paladins for the new Immolation ability, post-buff double auras, and 4x Lay on Hands. (frees up the priest to cast other spells like Circle of Protection, which doesn't stack with Vigorous Defense, or knockdown groups of enemies for 10-20 seconds with a single Repulse Seal)
Fighters need a niche. +2 engagements isn't enough of a niche.
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Chanters are also great for scroll use, item casts, and tanking to me. There's so much potential via item use that realistically can't be used by other classes but chanter.
Scrolls scale with might and uses the base accuracy of a class. Best scroll user is a class with max might and starting 30 base accuracy. ....neither of which fit the Chanter.
Other classes suffer from action economy. Chanters before ramping up to an invocation have "realistic" usage of items and tanking ability. Additionally scroll use on a paladin with zealous focus can be a decent opener since the priest cast realization isnt fast enough to be gained for scroll casts.
Priests have 20 base accuracy, so they're irrelevant.
Monks have spare action economy at the start of a fight, during the time when using a scroll is most advantageous. They are most likely to max might and they start with 30 accuracy.
I'm not saying the Priest, Chanter, or Paladin don't have other kinds of advantages, but anything outside of the "best" is irrelevant, no?
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Chanters are also great for scroll use, item casts, and tanking to me. There's so much potential via item use that realistically can't be used by other classes but chanter.
Scrolls scale with might and uses the base accuracy of a class. Best scroll user is a class with max might and starting 30 base accuracy. ....neither of which fit the Chanter.
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Well, tbh 80 damage DoT is not too shabby even if you compare it with druid/priest DoT's. Druid can do more burst, yes, but this is pretty good at wearing down/finishing off big crowds and is free (it also does fully stack with druid DoTs unlike paladin auras and priest spells). It also kinda scales with INT (aoe) and I haven't seen it miss tbh, so I think it actually doesn't have an attack roll (Don't have the game to check it atm). The fact that it doesn't scale with might can be seen as a pro since you can dump it an go full tank stats. Chanter is one of the best solo classes because of this. This is going a bit offtopic however.
DoT stacking or not stacking is irrelevant. You don't use DoTs for the sake of it being a DoT. You use DoTs because it deals damage. Damage removes the opposition. Druids, Wizards, and Ciphers will remove the opposition faster than a Chanter (and at a much earlier level than 9).
Whether you believe it doesn't have an accuracy roll is irrelevant. It does have an accuracy roll. (and because it has an accuracy roll, giving them medium or large shields will also reduce its accuracy.)
Yes, Chanter is one of the best solo classes. Solo plays into their niche: long encounters
....but utilizing their niche in a party means the party wasn't very strong to begin with.
I'm not saying the Chanter is bad. That isn't my position. I'm just using the same logic some people use on other classes.
If certain people, who use this kind of logic, think someone else using it is irrational or misrepresenting the topic at hand when someone else uses it, then....
(not saying you do, but there are certain people in this thread that can't see their own reflection in the mirror)
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A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.
A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.
Is the glass half full?
Is the glass half empty?
Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?
Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot.To sum up:There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though.Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"?
With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks.
Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.
Well, you can have fun with any class composition, but this is a balance thread, so purely from powergaming perspective priest is a better support.
I'm actually making an RP playthrough with a PC paladin. Doesn't mean they are good. Doesn't mean I'm not having fun.
My first playthrough was Priest, Druid, Wizard, Cipher, Chanter, Fighter. Fighter was then switched for a 2nd Cipher or a 2nd Chanter with varying success. Chanters with Dragon Trashed are far from garbage btw, but they are just static aoe dps with no micro, hence quite boring.
From a purely powergaming perspective, anything other than the priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and monk is garbage.
A level 9 ability that does 40 slashing + 40 burning every 12 seconds vs. reflex, with a max accuracy of 70 at level 12, which does not scale with might or INT, is completely eclipsed by the druid, BTW.
From a purely powergaming perspective, thats garbage.
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A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.
A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.
Is the glass half full?
Is the glass half empty?
Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?
Well, I 100% agree with this. The issue is I'd much rather have a Priest than a Paladin and Paladin's array of unique benefits gets much worse if you have both, so its questionable if he's worth his party slot.To sum up:There's NO synergy between level 1 priest buffs and paladin auras (except zealous charge). They make each other redundant. Luckily for him, priest has 5 more levels of buffs though.Why does the conclusion always end up being "id rather have a priest than a paladin"?
With that kind of logic, you might as well make a party consisting of a priest, druid, wizard, cipher, and 2 monks.
Why bother with any other class? Fighters? Garbage. Rogues? Garbage. Chanters? Garbage. Paladins? Garbage. Rangers? Garbage.
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A Paladin does not provide +6 accuracy if the Priest uses Blessing.
A Priest does not provide +5 accuracy if the Paladin has Zealous Aura.
Is the glass half full?
Is the glass half empty?
Is a glass that is half full better or worse than a glass that is half empty?
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I'm finding myself persuaded by the arguments that Sworn Enemy is a valid alternate ability to pick up at level 5 or 7. The only thing seems to be that one-handed weapons with on-hit effects appear to be pretty scarce on the ground, especially before Act 3. Starcaller is a fun weapon, though. Maybe I'm just overly attached to that +1 engagement from Shatterstar/Sheathed in Autumn. What are people's preferred weapons for most of the game on their tanks?
Vile Loner's Lance
+5 accuracy because its a 1h spear
-5 all defense for 5s (modified by INT) when you hit the enemy
Its cheap.
Can be bought at the Salty Mast, Ondra's Gift.
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I also prefer Sworn enemy over Reviving Exhortation and taking advantage of on-hit weapons. While active buffs do not stack with other active buffs that are mechanically similar, there is no other active accuracy buff that is mechanically similar to Sworn Enemy. This means they have the highest ceiling for melee accuracy out of all the other classes.
(Reckless Assault does not stack with Devotions of the Faithful because they both grant melee accuracy, in case anyone was going to mention the rogue)
I was going to mention the cipher with tactical meld. Seems to be on the same level (base 5 lower but +20 vs +15)
Oh, right. Tactical Meld is a unique accuracy buff, too. This also mean ciphers blow away all the other casters in spell accuracy, too.... hmm...
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I also prefer Sworn enemy over Reviving Exhortation and taking advantage of on-hit weapons. While active buffs do not stack with other active buffs that are mechanically similar, there is no other active accuracy buff that is mechanically similar to Sworn Enemy. This means they have the highest ceiling for melee accuracy out of all the other classes.
(Reckless Assault does not stack with Devotions of the Faithful because they both grant melee accuracy, in case anyone was going to mention the rogue)
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While I will concede that duke's video proves a fighter is mostly superior to a paladin, I disagree that it proves that the fault is with paladins. The main thing I gather from the video is that if anything, fighters are far too powerful. After maybe the first 30 seconds of the fight or whatever, it is entirely possible that the person playing the fighter could have afk'd for the rest of the fight, with it bearing no relevance to the eventual outcome. To me, there is a massive problem with that, and this is not directly tied to something simply being an auto-attack class. The breath attacks are avoidable for a reason, and in my video had I not tried to avoid them, and use summons to eat the knock down attacks, I would have died very quickly. This is adherence to the mechanics of the fight, and I think that is the right way a person should have to beat the encounter. How is it that people can watch someone do the fight with a class that can ignore all the mechanics, even the avoidable ones, and basically afk, and then fault the class that had to adhere to them as being the issue? Having only done solo playthroughs I didn't have a chance to experience it, but the wide regard seems to be that with a party the game is entirely too easy on Path of the Damned. If a fighter can trivialize what is supposed to be one of the harder encounters in the game, I would think it isn't much of a stretch to say that a party built around a fighter tank could trivialize most if not all of the fights in the game.
What equipment were you using? What equipment was dukefx using?
What level were you? Was level was dukefx?
How did you build your character? How did dukefx build his character?
Too many knee-jerk reactions.
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Give both Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands at level 1.
Merge Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands under a 1/encounter umbrella. (Using Flames of Devotion will eat into the usage of Lay on Hands and vice versa.)
Call the umbrella "Zealous Flames". (This isn't needed, but think about renaming Lay on Hands to something else befitting the name of the umbrella, like Flames of Perserverance. "Lay on Hands" is more of a religious phrase that seems out of place for PoE's martial zealots)
Increase Flames of Devotion to +100% Burn Damage as a baseline. (Because of the nerf from 2 per encounter to 1 per encounter)
Remove Greater Lay on Hands talent.
Remove Intense Flames talent.
Add a new talent that increases Zealous Flames by an additional +1/encounter.
This is minor buff, a major buff, or a horizontal change depending on how you look at it, but the most important thing is that it increases the amount of thought put into utilizing a Paladin as early as level 1.
You would have to think about bursting an enemy down at the start of a fight (that may not hit at all), or saving it for an emergency heal (that will hit).
Given their dearth of active abilities, I'm not sure combining two of their primary actives and then reducing them to once per encounter (or twice with a talent) is a good idea. When the flames/hands are out, the paladin loses a lot of its flavor and even a large boost to attack will lose it's relevance, at later levels, when compared to abilities that can be used more frequently and/or against more targets.
Paladins are in the same position as most other classes with level 1 per encounter abilities. When a fighter's knockdown or accuracy buff runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor. When a rogue's blinding strike or crippling strike runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor. When a priest's holy radiance runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor(for any battle that doesn't require spells anyways). When a ranger's marked prey or wounded shot runs out, it loses a lot of its flavor. Anytime a class cannot utilize their active abilities for whatever reason, it loses its flavor.
I'm not in favor of giving more attentive maintenance to a class that was built to be low maintenance. My suggestion was to make the class require a little more thought, especially at the start of the game. Using one ability at the expense of another requires thought. Using the exact same ability two times(or more) per encounter, regardless of the situation, requires going through the motions.
I am in favor of giving people the choice to increase the attentive maintenance of a low maintenance class. Hence, why I suggested a new talent that does exactly that. But choosing to take it means doing so at the expense of a low maintenance talent. This requires additional thought on the part of the player.
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When I try to use the secret shortcut, she ends up turning hostile and attacking me. Is that normal?
Did you tell her that you won't harm Raedric?
I told her I would kill Nedmar.
You have to kill Nedmar and she has to be the one to open the passage.
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When I try to use the secret shortcut, she ends up turning hostile and attacking me. Is that normal?
Did you tell her that you won't harm Raedric?
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Give both Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands at level 1.
Merge Flames of Devotion and Lay on Hands under a 1/encounter umbrella. (Using Flames of Devotion will eat into the usage of Lay on Hands and vice versa.)
Call the umbrella "Zealous Flames". (This isn't needed, but think about renaming Lay on Hands to something else befitting the name of the umbrella, like Flames of Perserverance. "Lay on Hands" is more of a religious phrase that seems out of place for PoE's martial zealots)
Increase Flames of Devotion to +100% Burn Damage as a baseline. (Because of the nerf from 2 per encounter to 1 per encounter)
Remove Greater Lay on Hands talent.
Remove Intense Flames talent.
Add a new talent that increases Zealous Flames by an additional +1/encounter.
This is minor buff, a major buff, or a horizontal change depending on how you look at it, but the most important thing is that it increases the amount of thought put into utilizing a Paladin as early as level 1.You would have to think about bursting an enemy down at the start of a fight (that may not hit at all), or saving it for an emergency heal (that will hit).
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Non-unique items are randomized. Loot is generated when you peek in a container. The looting seed used in all areas is changed after every game day. You can manipulate the game into coughing up a pair by knowing the location where it drops and resting 3-4x to change the seed.
For example, there is a pair that can be found on a desk in Raedric's private chambers. It is connected to Osyra's room and you can freely rest there if you side with her.
If you want an easy way to obtain the gloves, do the following:
1.) Save your game in Osyra's room.
2.) Use her shortcut to reach Raedric's private chambers.
3.) Loot the desk.
4.) If you find the Gloves of Manipulation, congrats. You can stop here.
5.) If you don't find the Gloves of Manipulation, reload your save.
6.) Talk to Osyra and rest until a day passes.
7.) Go back to step 1.
To get a better understanding of how the seeding works, if you find the Gloves of Manipulation on Raedric's desk, you'll also find a Blunting Belt in the trapped chest by Raedric's bed 100% of the time. The seed used to spawn the gloves on his desk is the same seed used to spawn the belt in the trapped chest. If you loot the gloves, but don't want the belt, you can go back down to Osyra's room and rest a day to change the seed.
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The base damage in an item description is misleading. The description is adding enchant modifiers to the base damage. The base damage that you see isn't the real base damage.
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A 2H Sword vs 8 DR has 1.70 DPS.
The Shades I believe have 16 DR, as do plate wearing paladins. Against 16 DR a 2H sword does 0.77 DPS.
A level 3 Cipher has 31 accuracy.
I'm not sure of the stats of POTD Shadows & Shades.
You can't really prove a point using made up numbers. Can't take credit for this nor give any, yet...
The damage mod being used is higher than you'll normally have at level 3, but if you include cipher talents 1.44 isn't unreasonable, and it's significantly more dps than 1.7 against 8 DR.
Start at 20 might and you have +30%
Soul Whip adds another +20%
A fine estoc adds another 15%
65% total damage mod.
This assumes there are no grazes are misses, but a blunderbuss with draining whip is going to be even worse against 75 deflection enemies (PotD shadows) at level 3.
I also find it strange that the other guy brought up shadows. Shadows don't care if you're melee or ranged. They'll get up in your face either way. Bringing up shadows is a detriment to their argument about survivability.
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Then you're not good at reading context. I said that in combination of "Binding being the best tactic to spam repeatedly", as if you just need that spell and are in godmode from then on.
But if you just got the spell and melee, focus regeneration is a big problem.
Wouldn't focus regeneration be an even bigger problem for non-melee ciphers at that level?
I mean, is there a sure-fire way to find a blunderbuss at level 3? You have a small chance of obtaining a blunderbuss from a crate next to bandits in Black Meadows, but thats not gauranteed. You also need to pick up Draining Talent at level 2 and suffer the -10 accuracy penalty of the blunderbuss.
There is a sure-fire way to obtain a fine estoc... just pick up Kana Rua. The southwest portion of Magran's Fork has a dead body that carries either a fine pollaxe or fine great sword. You don't need to fight any enemies to get to it either. All of them offer a 14 accuracy advantage over the non-guaranteed blunderbuss. You can also pick up a weapon focus at level 2 instead of Draining Whip for a huge 20 accuracy advantage. Even if Mental Binding misses, you'll still hit more often than the blunderbuss.
You only need to deal 60 damage to generate 15 focus. 60 damage over the course of 14 seconds is ~4.3 DPS. Are you telling me you can't deal 4.3 DPS with a fine 2-handed weapon at level 3?
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The thing we want to see is how well can interrupt reduce the amount of incoming damage, or at least that is what I'd want to see.
With the tweaked character using fists, even crits should not drop the bear in ten hits.
We then run the test for the 100 perception guy. He will interrupt every attack. We count how many times the bear gets an attack off before the bear sustains X amount of hits.
Then we run the test for the 3 perception guy. He will not interrupt at all. We count how many times the bear gets an attack off before the bear sustains X amount of hits.
This test will show the absolute best case for the benefit of an interrupt build for mitigating the number of enemy attacks. Then you can see what you could gain by pursuing a heavy interrupt build and then decide the cost/benefit of doing so.
Trying to find a way to achieve 100% crits with non-monk fists was pretty time consuming. Anyways, here are the logs:
^ There are 6 critical interrupts with fists inbetween each bear hit.
^ There are 5-6 non-interrupted hits with fists inbetween each bear hit.
Since fists seem to have worse action delay than other fast weapons, its difficult to say whether or not crits increase the action delay by 50%.
...but atleast we know fists are horrible for interrupts.
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Here's the test I want you to run:
Scenario 1 - Interrupt 100% of the time
Scenario 2 - Interrupt 0% of the time
I extrapolate that the bear will die in Scenario 1 and that you will die in Scenario 2
How can you extrapolate that i will die in scenario 2 when I already gave you a scenario above where I killed the bear with 19 might and 0 interrupts? You're not making any sense.
Because you moved the goalpost of your own experiment. You changed all of your stats in between rounds, therefore you aren't testing the effectiveness of one thing.
It's called putting your thumb on the scale.
You do realize there is a 97 point stat difference between 3 might, 19 dex, 18 con, 100 perception, and 100 resolve vs. 3 might, 19 dex, 18 con, 3 perception, and 100 resolve, right?
You do realize that letting a fight run its course with those stats is meaningless, right?
Most overpowered builds post patch 2.02
in Pillars of Eternity: General Discussion (NO SPOILERS)
Posted
Yup, you're right. I just tested it. I had previously thought the only difference between dexterity and attack speed was that the latter didn't affect reload speed and armor penalty.
While this doesn't change about what I think about the monk vs. fighter, it does change how I view attack speed vs. damage bonuses.
Its overvalued because it doesn't affect the entirety of the attack like dexterity does, which will often make it worse than pure damage modifiers. And i'm not sure where you got your sources, but dexterity affects everything because it increases action speed. (I tested it)