Baki
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Posts posted by Baki
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@Myrten: no, only Reload Time and Dex affect Reload Time.
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Yeah, me and him.you mean you and hugin? I've done nothing in the ciphers part
BTW
Could you put a link to the spreadsheet into your first post?
somehow i cant edit the first post.
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you mean you and hugin? I've done nothing in the ciphers part
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20 WeaponDmg vs 40 WeaponDmg
10DR
0 Dmg Mods
0 Accuracy Mods
Old Way:
20 Base -> 3.5 Dmg
40 Base -> 17 Dmg
Comparision 17/3.5=4.85 <- The Weapon with 40 Damage is 4.85 times better.
New Way:
20 Base -> 5 Dmg
40 Base -> 18.5 Dmg
Comparision 18.5/5=3.7 <- The Weapon with 40 Damage is 3.7 times better.
4.85/3.7= 1.31 -> the old calculation favors the higher weapon damage by 31% -> 31% inaccurate. thats nearly 1/3. clearly significant imo.
this would get worse if we had a situation with high dmg mods and critchance.
OK, I did this change, formula is monstrous now
gj. thanks!
i think it would be better to show dps values in the big damage table.
i'm more interested in dps values vs certain DRs than pure dmg values. the one cell with avg dps is just not enough :/
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probably, yes. we don't know for sure yet. it might be even lower because some minor parts of the animation might not be affected by dex at all.
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20 WeaponDmg vs 40 WeaponDmg
10DR
0 Dmg Mods
0 Accuracy Mods
Old Way:
20 Base -> 3.5 Dmg
40 Base -> 17 Dmg
Comparision 17/3.5=4.85 <- The Weapon with 40 Damage is 4.85 times better.
New Way:
20 Base -> 5 Dmg
40 Base -> 18.5 Dmg
Comparision 18.5/5=3.7 <- The Weapon with 40 Damage is 3.7 times better.
4.85/3.7= 1.31 -> the old calculation favors the higher weapon damage by 31% -> 31% inaccurate. thats nearly 1/3. clearly significant imo.
this would get worse if we had a situation with high dmg mods and critchance.
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but you use total dmg mod?
what we currently do is: BaseDmg*TotalDmgMod-DR
and we should do
ChanceGraze*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModGraze-DR + ChanceHit*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModHit-DR + ChanceCrit*BaseDmg*TotalDmgModCrit-DR
Let me do it with numbers:
10 Weapon Base Dmg, no Dmg Mod (Dmg Mod=1), No Accuracy Mod, DR 3
currently we calculate the total dmg mod first. 0.35*0.5+0.5*1=0.675
Then we calculate the Dmg: 10*0.675-3=3.75
But what we should do is:
0.35*(10*(1-0.5)-3) + 0.5*(10*(1+0)-3) = 4.2
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i think we should change how we handle accuracy in the sheet
lets say we have these stats:
Avg base weapon damage: 10
Dmg Mod from might etc: 100%
DR of the target 10
5% Miss
35% Graze
50% Hit
10% Crit
then the avg dmg would be
0.35*10*(1+1-0.5)-10
+0.5*10*(1+1)-10
+0.1*10*(1+1+0.5)-10
We cant just calculate an accuracy mod of 0.685 and use that as a factor like we currently do.
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im not so sure about that. but its the closest we have so far.
this is so frustrating. i will never understand why devs do not reveal this stuff.
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next time please come up with a theory that works for all cases before declaring it valid
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Can we really be so sure that MaximKat's formula is correct?
-Does not work for Attack Speed: 52/1.24=42 and not 44 as expected
-Does not work for Reload Speed: 98/1.24= 79 and not 81 as expected
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Looks like the Dex bonus is applied as AttackTime/(1+Bonus), instead of AttackTime*(1-Bonus) as the chant does. E.g., 74/1.24=57.67 - matches observed.
For the ALL case, REC = 74*(1+0.2+0.5-0.2)/(1+0.24)=89.5 - also works.
57.65 is too far from 60 imo.
~2.35/14=16.8% deviation
Edit: oh, 74/1.24 is actually 59.68
GJ MaximCat!
also, you are welcome to do the data cleanup yourself
fraps and virtualdub are everything you need.
Another edit: i added MaximKat's attack speed findings in the sheet. Also edited Melee Fast and Arbalest Dmg (Patch)
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okay, this time with locked framerate
Base
AT 52
REC 74
REL 98
Only Chant (Rec x1.2, REL x2)
AT 52
REC 60 -> 74*(1-0.2)=59.2
REL 51 = 98*(1-0.5)=49
Only Armor (Rec -50%)
AT 52
Rec 112 -> 74*(1+0.5)=111
Rel 98
Only Dex (AT, REC, REL 24%)
AT 44 -> 52*(1-0.24)=39.52 <- wrong
REC 60 <- 74*(1-0.24)=56.24 <- wrong
REL 81 <- 98*(1-0.24)=74.48 <- wrong
Only Pen Shot (Rec -20%)
AT 52
REC 89 -> 74*(1+0.2)=88.8
REL 98
ALL
AT 44 -> 52*(1-0.24)=39.52 <- wrong
REC 90 -> 74*(1-0.24+0.2+0.5-0.2)=93.24 <- wrong
REL 43 -> 98*(1-0.5-0.24)=25.48 <- wrong, maybe multiplicative stacking?
Any suggestions?
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the only thing i could think of that might cause this is fraps or virtual dub.
do you have the "lock frame rate while recording" option on ?
because if your game runs at say 45 and you record at 30 it will be highly inaccurate
so either lock it in fraps or in drivers
yep
EDIT: wait.. i had the videop capture settings on 30 fps but the framerate was not locked.. okay, all again :D
@kmbogd: nope, ill try to figure out the ranged stuff first
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Base
AT 48-53
REC 74-75
REL 98
Only Chant (Rec x1.2, REL x2)
AT 49
REC 60 = Base x (1-0.2) <-works Base / (1+0.2) <- does not work!
REL 51 = Base x (1-0.5)
Only Armor (Rec 50%)
AT 48
Rec 112 = Base x (1+0.5)
Rel 97
Only Dex (AT, REC, REL 24%)
AT 41 <- can't explain
REC 60 <- can't explain
REL 78 <- can't explain
Only Pen Shot (Rec -20%)
AT 48
REC 90 = Base x (1+0.2)
REL 97
ALL
AT 41 <- can't explain
REC 91 <- can't explain
REL 41 <- can't explain (Base/1.5/0.76=37)
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the only thing i could think of that might cause this is fraps or virtual dub.
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created a new char to do the tests. female human chanter
1st try, base stats, no mods
AT 48
REC 75
REL 98
2nd try, base stats, no mods
AT 52
REC 75
REL 98
third try, base stats, no mods
AT 53
REC 74
REL 98
fourth try, base stats, no mods
AT 52
REC 75
REL 98
i don't now why but the attack speeds seem to vary. doesnt make much sense to go any further. i won't do 10+ tests every time to get an average.
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I've made some changes to make it more clear and closer to game mechanics
:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit?usp=sharing
explain the speed mods please.
In game increasing speed - for example doubling reload speed is described as "Reload Speed x2", or bonus to ranged speed is "Ranged attack speed x1.25"
To make it closer to in-game descriptions I've modified the spreadsheet so that frames are divided by matching speed modifier. It also works great for recovery time - if you take Plate Armor's -50% recovery time just write 0.5 in recovery mod and recovery frames will be doubles as in game.
please explain this then:
Crossbow Speed without modifiers is
Attack: 53
Recovery: 76
Reload: 101
Now i used a buffed Chanter.
Dex: 30% -> Attack+Recovery+Reload?
Penetrating Shot: -20% Recovery
Chant: x1.2 Rate of fire, x2 reload Speed
Armor: -50% Recovery
Test Results:
Attack: 40
Recovery: 89
Reload: 41
i also thought i knew how it worked but i just cannot explain these test results. i've triple checked the frames, the test is accurate.
with only 1 modifier it works pretty well. as soon as we get multiple modifiers i cant explain the results.
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I've made some changes to make it more clear and closer to game mechanics
:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit?usp=sharing
explain the speed mods please.
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Hey Daemonjax,
Noticed you mentioned the disparity between dw fast 1h weapons and just using 2h weapons. Were my rough calculations in that other thread accurate?
To summarize:
1) Attack frequency 1/44 frames for dw and 1/84 frames for 2h --> dw attacks 2x as often as 2h
2) Damage 8-12 dw (avg 10) and 20-29 2h (avg 24.5)
Therefore 2h does more DPS since it does 2.45x the damage and attacks half as often, yielding (2.45/2) = 1.225x the damage of dw.
Target's DR has a major effect on your effective DPS.
he's a screenshot of my excel dps calc (unfinished)
Edit: 2h base damage is 14-20 and not 20-29?
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demonjax, thanks for the virtualdub tip
i am double checking my results with virtualdub and i am getting minor differences.
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i remember this from my tests... i double checked one weapon.. i think it was crossbow.. created 2 different characters for it, male and female and i got different attack frames. one was 2 frames faster than the other.
maybe different models have different animation lengths.
about VLC: but you have to click and count every frame manually? isn't there some software out there that does that for you?
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i'll just copy my tests again. how are you counting frames btw? i used fraps to make the vid in 30 frames and then i used SolveigMM AVI Trimmer to get the times in seconds. always had to convert them back into frames.
:
Combat Mechanics? Attack Speed, Recovery
in Pillars of Eternity: Characters Builds, Strategies & the Unity Engine (Spoiler Warning!)
Posted · Edited by Baki
Myrten, could you please explain demonjaxs findings exaclty? why is there only "attack + recovery mod"? i thought our earlier tests had shown that these are different things affecting different stats.