British soldiers beat Iraqi kids

[Walsingham]

http://www.break.com/index/britishiraq12.html

 

I think it is worth looking at the original material.

 

On the one hand I can't possibly condone what they are doing. But on the other hand it looks to me like they simply got fed up with being pelted with crap. Your average squaddie takes violence directed at them personally. You could argue they are just applying basic punishment.

[Nartwak]

I'm using a dial up, could you sum it up?

[Petay]

Basically Nartwak, you see a picture of lots of kids throwing things at people, then shortly after the British soldiers come running after them and grab a few of them. They bring them back inside the base/headquarters/whatever, and beat them to the ground, then stick handcuffs on them.

 

I think I'm with you on this one Walsingham, I do find it quite disgusting that they can just beat these kids up quite so brutally, I mean, couldn't they just arrest them and hold them up somewhere to teach them a lesson?

 

The kids may have been pelting them projectiles and whatever else, but I see that as no reason to beat them senseless.

 

Edited for spelling.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Petay

[jaguars4ever]

I'm using a dial up, could you sum it up?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

A group of British soldiers round up some Iraqi punk kids before going Rodney King on their collective asses. Normally I'd disapprove, but the commentary was golden!

 

Oh yes, oh yes - you're gonna get it!

 

Yes, naughty little boys!

 

HaHaHaHa!

 

Yes, yes, YESSSSS!

 

Oh please! Don't hurt me!

 

HaHaHaHa!

 

You littel ****ers! Shoot at us? You gonna ****ing die!

 

 

--> --> --> :ph34r:

[Walsingham]

It just occurred to me to wonder how normal corporal punishment is in Iraq.

[SteveThaiBinh]

The video starts with a crowd of young males dispersing to the sound of an occasional gunshot - it seems they'd been throwing rocks at a British army compound and the soldiers were firing warning shots to make them stop.

 

As the crowd is running off, a wave of a dozen or so British soldiers come out and chase after it. There's some editing of the film, because next we see British soldiers leading/pulling three rioters in through the door of the compound and pushing them down onto the ground in the yard. At this point the commentary starts: "Oh yes, oh yes, you're gonna get it, naughty little boys" as the soldiers start beating and kicking the rioters as they lie on the ground.

 

This continues for about a minute or so, with the commentator getting more excited and using more expletives (which are bleeped out). The violence seems to tail off as a larger group of soldiers return through the gate and see what's happening, but no-one appears to be directly intervening to stop what's happening.

 

I listened to an former soldier discussing the video yesterday - up until the rioters are brought into the yard, this was all standard tactics, apparently. You disperse a crowd of rioters, then send in a wave of troops to try and catch the ringleaders and bring them in. It's only the violent attacks on the (now helpless) rioters that are objectionable.

 

The BBC says it got the video - up until just before the abuse started - two years ago and broadcast it together with an interview with the guy who shot it. He's apparently been arrested or questioned by the police already. They showed their version, and there was a soundtrack - Wagner, I think.

Edited February 14, 2006 by SteveThaiBinh

[kirottu]

Civilized rules are quickly forgotten in war.

[Nartwak]

Thanks Petay, jag, SteveThaiBinh. I feel sort of sick when I wonder if this is going to be taken worse or more lightly than the Mohammed cartoons.

[jaguars4ever]

It just occurred to me to wonder how normal corporal punishment is in Iraq.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point, Wally. Assuming the soldiers actions were punitive measures against the kids, we can't discredit their actions on general principle. We're not subject to a consensus unless we understand the accepted morality of the region. Justice is subjective, as its precursor, the concept of fairness. Here, punk kids receive juvenile hall - there, they receive the butt end of a stick. Each to their own I guess.

 

And besides, anyone who can say Oh please! Don't hurt me! with such a degree of variance in both timbre and pitch is okay in my book. :D

Edited February 14, 2006 by jaguars4ever

[Walsingham]

I think it will be taken as fuel to the fire. I do feel obliged to point out, however, that such treatment is nothing more than typical for every Arab country.

 

Question: should the kids have been throwing stuff in the first place? Ignoring the question of troop misbehaviour.

 

 

EDIT:

 

BBC give the video some context, including an interview with the cameraman. It sounds like the soldiers were pretty strung out, by riots during the day, and firefights at night. Cpl. Webster states they had more 'contacts' than a normal warzone.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3681938.stm

[Nartwak]

No, but kids will be kids.

[Walsingham]

'kids will be kids'

 

In what way, precisely?

[Moose]

Those kids needed a good beating. It's just too bad it had to come from a British solider and not their own parents (hey maybe their parents were dead).

[Nartwak]

Throwing rocks, being dangerously obnoxious, that sort of thing.

[Kaftan Barlast]

I think the beatings and definently the cheering is despiccable. Unfortunantly it is quite typical of people who have some authority like policemen, security guards, soldiers etc. to go way over the top when they feel that they are being challenged. Everything from subway security taking graffitti kids to the back room and beating them to cops stopping midway to the arrest in order to teach the arrested a little lesson. And thats just Sweden.

 

 

What we are seeing here is, unfortunantly, just normal human behaviour. But to take such malignant pleasure in suffering as the cameraman obviously does is just downright sick.

[SteveThaiBinh]

...couldn't they just arrest them and hold them up somewhere to teach them a lesson?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yes, that's what they're supposed to do, and what I suppose soldiers do across Iraq every day without attracting media attention. I appreciate that serving in Iraq is a nightmare, but what about all the soldiers who do their job without abusing local civilians? If the conditions were as bad as they say, that's important for understanding why this happened and how it can be avoided in future, but it's never an excuse for the individual soldiers involved. They must be prosecuted.

 

When we're discussing local cultural norms, it's important to distinguish between what's common and what's right. It may be very common for Iraqi police or soldiers to beat their prisoners, but that doesn't mean that the majority of Iraqi people would see that as acceptable behaviour any more than they would see the actions of these soldiers as OK.

 

Though I have little knowledge of the military and am happy to be corrected, my guess would be that if local cultural norms are to be taken into account by foreign troops, they would be incorporated when the rules of engagement are drawn up, not at the level of an individual soldier deciding to beat someone up because he thinks the locals would do the same.

Question: should the kids have been throwing stuff in the first place?

Palestinian kids throw rocks at Israeli soldiers. If you're going to accept local norms of corporal punishment, you have to accept local norms of protest.

Edited February 14, 2006 by SteveThaiBinh

[Walsingham]

My reading of this so far from you guys is

 

Kids breaking stuff is human nature and OK.

 

Soldiers beating up kids who break stuff is human nature ...and sick and evil.

 

 

Kaft, in particular, I think you might want to ease up a little. Watch the interview with the cameraman. Try to imagine the pressure the soldiers were under. It's still wrong, but sick and evil? I'm not comfortable making that judgement.

[Judge Hades]

What is wrong is the soldiers being there in the first place.

[Jorian Drake]

Civilized rules are quickly forgotten in war. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You mean occupation...I could sing a lot about that <_<

[Nartwak]

Children generally get a degree of special dispensation.

Edited February 14, 2006 by Nartwak

[kumquatq3]

I wonder how long, much like all the marches on American bases in the Middle East over those cartoons, till this becomes our fault....

[Moose]

I think the most striking and interesting thing about the video is it's got one of those little white plastic mold chairs in it.

 

I saw a programme the other day that said that millions of these were manafactured and that it's the most common chair seen all over the world. Guess this video only goes to prove it.

[Walsingham]

I think the most striking and interesting thing about the video is it's got one of those little white plastic mold chairs in it.

 

I saw a programme the other day that said that millions of these were manafactured and that it's the most common chair seen all over the world. Guess this video only goes to prove it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You are special like a butterfly.

[Kaftan Barlast]

I would like to say that we shouldnt even have to say that its wrong for kids to break tuff and throw rocks at people, OF COURSE its wrong! But we already know that it is wrong and so we focus on the main issue which is soldiers venting frustration and rage by beating up kids.

 

 

 

Kaft, in particular, I think you might want to ease up a little. Watch the interview with the cameraman. Try to imagine the pressure the soldiers were under. It's still wrong, but sick and evil? I'm not comfortable making that judgement.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I tried watching the video but the link just goes to the BBC "help with the BBC news video player" or some such. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3681938.stm

 

 

And I still say that the way the cameraman taunts and ridicules the helpless children being beaten is beyond an outlet for stress and in the territory of sadism.

[Ichabod7]

You could argue they are just applying basic punishment.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I think so.