Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Dual Endurance Drain weapon Rogue?


  • Please log in to reply
216 replies to this topic

#81
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7287 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I think your points were answered correctly and in a decent manner and not "slandered" by any means.

 

You shouldn't turn to sarcasm if you get proven wrong. Just try for once to accept and acknowledge that somebody was right with a detail while you weren't. It's no big deal. You don't need to agree wholly to my opinion, but making snarky comments when somebody just clears things up (while a short "Oops, got the Driving Flight/Twinned Arrows thing mixed up" would be more appropriate) doesn't show grandeur.


  • JerekKruger and draego like this

#82
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2089 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise

 

Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.


  • draego and sendart like this

#83
firkraag888

firkraag888

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 318 posts

 

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise

 

Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.

 

maybe if you tried intelligent communication instead of arguing like you yourself just admitted then you would have more success next time



#84
sendart

sendart

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 5 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I think your points were answered correctly and in a decent manner and not "slandered" by any means.

 

You shouldn't turn to sarcasm if you get proven wrong. Just try for once to accept and acknowledge that somebody was right with a detail while you weren't. It's no big deal. You don't need to agree wholly to my opinion, but making snarky comments when somebody just clears things up (while a short "Oops, got the Driving Flight/Twinned Arrows thing mixed up" would be more appropriate) doesn't show grandeur.

I think they are simply unable to wrap their heads around the idea that other classes have abilities/talents that lead to them doing comparable if not more damage than a rogue's. Much like the person who did not believe that spirit shift druids had better single target dps than rogues, except I think that person changed their mind when presented with the math.


  • draego likes this

#85
firkraag888

firkraag888

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 318 posts

and yes I mixed up the driving flight/ twin arrows. but I think you no what I meant.

 

It will be intersteing to see if kaylon did allow for driving flight or not



#86
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7287 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I think they are simply unable to wrap their heads around the idea that other classes have abilities/talents that lead to them doing comparable if not more damage than a rogue's. Much like the person who did not believe that spirit shift druids had better single target dps than rogues, except I think that person changed their mind when presented with the math.


:lol: That person was actually me. :) Nowadays I'm a huge fan of boar druids.

Edited by Boeroer, 13 September 2017 - 04:27 AM.

  • grausch, draego, Dr <3 and 1 other like this

#87
Lampros

Lampros

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 670 posts

 

I think they are simply unable to wrap their heads around the idea that other classes have abilities/talents that lead to them doing comparable if not more damage than a rogue's. Much like the person who did not believe that spirit shift druids had better single target dps than rogues, except I think that person changed their mind when presented with the math.


:lol: That person was actually me. :) Nowadays I'm a huge fan of boar druids.

 

 

But the difference is that someone changed their mind after being shown wrong, it looks like! ;)


  • JerekKruger, draego and Boeroer like this

#88
mosspit

mosspit

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 482 posts
  • Deadfire Backer

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise

 
Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.

maybe if you tried intelligent communication instead of arguing like you yourself just admitted then you would have more success next time


Sorry just wanna chip in that JereKruger didn't deserve that comment for his detailed breakdown. Not that it matters, but it's the internet and I can post what I feel.
  • Boeroer and Lampros like this

#89
Kaylon

Kaylon

    (7) Enchanter

  • Members
  • 822 posts
Of course Driving Flight wasn't included in my calculations. I also considered a party situation where the rogue/pet are assisting a companion which is something normal if you want them to stay alive as long as possible. My post wasn't made to support Boeroer or somebody else, I just tried to show the potential of each class. (In fact most of the things I pointed were in the favor of the rogue).If you think the rogue has higher accuracy please post your numbers, maybe I missed something.
  • JerekKruger likes this

#90
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2089 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Sorry just wanna chip in that JereKruger didn't deserve that comment for his detailed breakdown. Not that it matters, but it's the internet and I can post what I feel.

 

Thanks. To be fair, whilst I stand by the content of my posts in this thread perhaps my delivery could have been better.



#91
firkraag888

firkraag888

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 318 posts
I have trouble wrapping my head around a ranger doing comparable damage to a rogue because I have done over 1000 hours of gameplay and from that experience of playing both rangers and rogues ( two classes I love btw)'you can tell there is a huge difference between a rogues effectiveness and a rangers effectiveness. I just dont believe that a ranger can dismantle a battlefield like a rogue can.

One thing I have noticed is that a rogues crits are not represented properly on this debate and maybe it is the rogues affliction capabilty that is also not adequately presented. Trust me , rogues, if built properly are one of the most powerful classes in the game. Why do you think obsidian gave them no late level abilities ththat are any good? Thats because they thought they are overpowered.

I completely wreck the game with a rogue for the simple fact they can lock down enemies one by one and kill them quickly. Unlike barbs who spread there damage out thinly over multiple targets who stand around the barb and hack him down.

Edited by firkraag888, 13 September 2017 - 08:48 AM.


#92
Lampros

Lampros

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 670 posts

Why do you think obsidian gave them no late level abilities ththat are any good? Thats because they thought they are overpowered.
 

 

This is almost never a good argument. Game devs may know actual mechanics of the game better, but they are seldom better players or better judges of game balance than the top players - in part because they seldom spend enough time actually playing the game at high levels than the most dedicated players (who often try to find ways to break game or find exploits). While I may be a neophyte at this game, I've played enough games to know at least this much. In fact, I have been part of high profile raiding guilds across several MMORPGs (including one that consistently was among the earliest guilds in the world to down the initial WoW bosses) and recall devs had to patch stuff constantly, because bosses were being downed in a manner that was never even foreseen. Heck, I recall encounters where multi-stage bosses were essentially put down almost instantly in the first stage, because the top DPS-ers in top guilds were able to achieve DPS numbers that the devs thought "impossible."

 

Long story short: Devs are not only infallible but usually more fallible than the top players.

 

Edit: A rather telling story about how a lot of WoW Warriors quit and re-rolled even before the game went live (!). Initially, Warriors were envisioned by the devs to be a "tanking" class - while Hunters and Rogues were supposed to be the single-target DPS specialists. But we beta Warriors knew in practice this wasn't true, and that there was a less popular build that could stack a lot of unpopular talents to achieve the type of DPS that would blow anything Rogues or Hunters could achieve right out of the water. Unfortunately (for us Warriors), one of the beta Warriors insisted on fixing this issue and kept telling devs that Warrior DPS was OP and certainly not working as devs intended. The devs kept telling him that he is wrong. So the guy made a video that went viral and showed his Warrior two-shotting the entire (then) end-game outdoor content.

 

So Warriors got nerfed before the thing went live, and a lot of Warriors got angry (though the nerf was obviously needed). And devs were publicly embarrassed for being blind.

 

Needless to say, it wasn't the first time WoW devs would mis-diagnose end-game balance.


Edited by Lampros, 13 September 2017 - 09:10 AM.

  • JerekKruger and draego like this

#93
Lampros

Lampros

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 670 posts

 

I don't think people will understand how crazy this was unless you played WoW beta or at least the first few months. This guy is basically clearing an entire end-game group area solo, without any end-game gear, and without even freaking resting.

 

That was beta Warrior DPS, and the devs kept saying Warrior DPS was far below those of Rogues and Hunters.

 

Sure, devs know what they are talking about. LOL.


Edited by Lampros, 13 September 2017 - 09:26 AM.


#94
Natures Bounty

Natures Bounty

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 33 posts

One thing I have noticed is that a rogues crits are not represented properly on this debate and maybe it is the rogues affliction capabilty that is also not adequately presented. Trust me , rogues, if built properly are one of the most powerful classes in the game. Why do you think obsidian gave them no late level abilities ththat are any good? Thats because they thought they are overpowered.

I completely wreck the game with a rogue for the simple fact they can lock down enemies one by one and kill them quickly. Unlike barbs who spread there damage out thinly over multiple targets who stand around the barb and hack him down.

 

All classes are overpowered, especially from Level 11 on. So yeah, rogues are overpowered too. There has been several threads about power comparisons and there has been consent, that the answer depends on your play style as well as playing and party mode. There has also been quite some (although not perfect) consent among the experienced players, that rogues are among the weaker classes in the game (in relative comparison to other classes) because they lack AoE Damage and AoE CC effects (plus some consider them squishy).

 

I still like playing rogues over many other classes although I consider them the weakest class by far (or should I say I like them BECAUSE I don't consider them as overpowered - but still overpowered - as the other classes). It does not make you a bad person if you love a class that many others consider weaker than other classes (but still overpowered). It's totally fine to say that. 

 

So please continue to love the rogue - it's about enjoying the game and liking your characters, not about relative power. 


  • draego, Dr <3 and Lampros like this

#95
mosspit

mosspit

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 482 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
Actually the thread kind of digressed into a Rogue vs Ranger after this
 

A dual weilding rogue glass cannon optimized for crits, sneaks and death blows will severely out damage a ranger.


Calculations provided via various posters were aimed at shedding some light on this. Maybe hyperbole is applied? Or maybe you never expected to be proven the contrary, and by contrary I meant that the ranger maybe isn't "severely outdamaged" by a rogue.

Personally when the issue of pet is described along lines of dying too easily I struggle to understand if it is the reality of the situation or is it another case of hyperbole. Pets have enjoyed many fixes and buffs since vanilla days. Really all you need is Resilient Companion and level scaling takes care of the survivablity issue. Don't expect pets to tank boss dragons but they can handle 2 normal type enemies whacking on it no problem. At least in my experience.

Just to be clear, I have nothing against Rogues. In fact, the one and only build that I created on this forum was for a Rogue.

Edited by mosspit, 13 September 2017 - 09:26 AM.

  • draego and Lampros like this

#96
bigwillystyle

bigwillystyle

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 122 posts
  • Steam:willdorris

I tried the high CON Rogue build and liked it.  Finished a Triple Crown run with it.  I ended up following the Tidefall + Alacrity route rather than dual Edge of Reason, mostly b/c I didn't want to do the Endless Paths again.  Very sturdy, high damage build.  



#97
Dr <3

Dr <3

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 776 posts
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
There is a link to the high con build? Just curios

#98
grausch

grausch

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 65 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer

Trust me , rogues, if built properly are one of the most powerful classes in the game. Why do you think obsidian gave them no late level abilities ththat are any good? Thats because they thought they are overpowered.
I completely wreck the game with a rogue for the simple fact they can lock down enemies one by one and kill them quickly. Unlike barbs who spread there damage out thinly over multiple targets who stand around the barb and hack him down.


My Frozen Crown Solo was done with a rogue so I can appreciate what Rogues do well. Insane single-target DPS with the ability to perma-stun or perma-prone single opponents and the best escape button in the game. The DPS math cannot account for different playstyles and party composition. My Frozen Lance build controlled the battlefield in a way that allowed him to survive almost unscathed, but the rogue would do more single target DPS. My rogue took out single opponents like taking candy from a baby, but he could easily be overwhelmed when fighting crowds.

So, in conclusion - the game is pretty balanced amongst most classes I have seen, but each one needs to be adapted to their specific strengths. DPS is great, but there are other factors that make my builds survive - strategy being number one and tactics being number two.

#99
Blades of Vanatar

Blades of Vanatar

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 664 posts
  • Location:Khatovar

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise


Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.
maybe if you tried intelligent communication instead of arguing like you yourself just admitted then you would have more success next time

Pot...kettle...black. Hil-ari-ous!
  • draego and Lampros like this

#100
Lampros

Lampros

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 670 posts

 

 

 

Wow. Every single point i raised is slandered by one of boerers mates. What a surprise


Sigh... believe whatever makes you happy firkraag, I'm done with arguing with you over this.
maybe if you tried intelligent communication instead of arguing like you yourself just admitted then you would have more success next time

Pot...kettle...black. Hil-ari-ous!

 

 

Hey, that's being unfair to Jerek. I've yet to see him ever behaving in an "unintelligent" fashion - or unnecessarily argumentative.


  • draego likes this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users