Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Dual Endurance Drain weapon Rogue?


  • Please log in to reply
129 replies to this topic

#41
Kaylon

Kaylon

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 797 posts

A few comments about ranger vs rogue damage potential. If we don't consider the pet, then a ranger with Twinned Arrows and a rogue with death blows do similar ranged damage (by the way Persistence gives always the best ranged dps and if durganized, in combination with the Gauntlets of Swiftness and a potion of alacrity you have nearly 0% recovery). While the ranger shots twice he also faces twice the DR and in the end the damage is similar with what the rogue does with deatblows.

 

Now, for melee, the highest dps is done by a Tidefall rogue (durganized, Gauntlets of Swiftness, potion of alacrity) with death blows. The rogue attacks as fast as the ranger but has 36% higher base damage and much higher damage bonuses/accuracy (than his ranged version) - all these make his dps far superior to what a ranger can do. Of course he has to move to do the damage (unlike the ranger) and that's why the melee damage should always be superior to the ranged damage...

 

The pet has very high damage potential if you pick his offensive talents but his attacks are slow, he has low accuracy and defenses which means his damage isn't very reliable (he misses often, can be disabled/killed easily). In a perfect world however I'm expecting Persistence ranger + pet = Tidefall rogue with death blows.


  • Lampros likes this

#42
firkraag888

firkraag888

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 277 posts

I have. But it's hard to tell.

As I said, rangers and rogues usually end up with the same hit/crit ratio in the end - mainly because of Stunning Shots I guess.

You might not know that Stunning Shots causes stun on hit(!) and crit. This leads to perma-stun (with ok INT and attack speed) as soon as the pet engages and that leads to a lot of crits from ranger and pet alike.

Rangers start with the same ACC as rogues by the way.

But yeah, hard to tell. I would need to dig out several old saves with high level rangers and rogues and compare the hits and crits.

I don't think this can outweigh the pet's damage, Driving Flight's damage and the dps loss from movement though.

no you haven't. there are two talents the rogue can pick that the ranger cant that increase hit-crit ratio by 25%



#43
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 6586 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

The pet has very high damage potential if you pick his offensive talents but his attacks are slow, he has low accuracy and defenses which means his damage isn't very reliable (he misses often, can be disabled/killed easily). In a perfect world however I'm expecting Persistence ranger + pet = Tidefall rogue with death blows.

It's hard to miss for the pet once the target is stunned and you have Stalker's Link... And if you take Persistence it's 100% Predator's Sense.
Concerning "getting killed": let's leave this out of the discussion because then we'd also have to guesstimate how often the rogue gets knocked out.
Furthermore we assume that there's two afflictions all the time so that the rogue can have his Deathblows for 100% of the fight. If this is the case for the ranger, too then it's very hard to miss even for a blind rascal as pet.

Let's not forget that firkraag888 stated that a dual wielding rogue will "severely outdamage" a ranger. We first would have to convince him that Tidefall is the no. 1 dps choice... ;)

Dirty Fighting + Vicious Fighting do +20% hit to crit by the way, not 25%.

Once you have a very high crit rate they are less powerful. If you have a hit/crit ratio of 50:50 and do 100 attacks (no misses, no grazes) then only 10 of your attacks will get converted. The more you crit the less this conversion will get triggered.

Edited by Boeroer, 11 September 2017 - 07:48 PM.


#44
firkraag888

firkraag888

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 277 posts

the rogue will gave a higher base accuracy then a ranger due to reckless assault that will also contribute to more crits. So the higher base and dirty fighting + viscous does make a noticeable difference.



#45
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 6586 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Did you understand what I was posting above? Conversion gets less and less effective the higher your accuracy and therefore your natural crit rate is.

Besides that: rangers start with 30 as do rogues. Rangers get Stalker's Link, rogues get Reckless Assault. The difference is 10 accuracy. Now the rogue gets conversion while the ranger and his pet will attack a perma-stunned target. Do you really think that the crit rate of both will be so much different? And that this will let the rogue severely outdamage the ranger and his pet?

Edited by Boeroer, 11 September 2017 - 08:06 PM.


#46
firkraag888

firkraag888

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 277 posts

again your basing all that on assumptions. Stalkers link...blah....you have to coordinate your squishy pet to make that work.........perma stun?.......it stuns on a hit or crit and they get a save vs fortitude on top of that

 

and yes trust me the extra 8 accuracy plus the 20% hit to crit increase for rogues is extremely good even at higher levels. I don't no what you are trying to achieve by attempting to discredit it. every ability diminishes returns if you look at it the way you are tying to sell it.  As you get to higher levels enemies get a higher deflection aswell remember? you obviously forgot about that


Edited by firkraag888, 11 September 2017 - 08:41 PM.


#47
Blades of Vanatar

Blades of Vanatar

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 615 posts
  • Location:Khatovar
Plus the Ranger's Accuracy will bumped up by Marksman and most likely Wood Elf racial ability. That about evens the Accuracy score, no?

#48
firkraag888

firkraag888

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 277 posts

ok if you want to take race selection into it the rogue is a hearth orlan with another 10% hit to crit. No?



#49
Kaylon

Kaylon

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 797 posts

The accuracy is basically the same for both. The ranger has Distant Advantage + Marksman which will compensate the loss from Twinned Arrows; then it's Stalker's Link vs Reckless Assault. 


  • Lampros likes this

#50
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 6586 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

again your basing all that on assumptions.

Yes, while you played high lvl rangers and rogues a couple of times - and then provide us with some calculations, statistics and good examples...

Sure - the enemies will have higher deflection. But your accuracy will grow, too. At the end of the game the difference between ACC to deflection gets bigger and bigger towards ACC. Crits are more common in the late game than in he early game. Grazes and misses are less likely. If the ranger can stun once it's perma-stun (no talk about dragons please).

I would also argue that the pet will hold out longer than the "glass cannon" melee rogue you advertised. In case both go down the ranger still does decent damage on his own while the rogue does 0. But as I said: we should leave dying aside (which the rogue is an expert in) because it makes things even more complicated.

So - as others also pointed out the accuracy and crit rate (Dirty/Vicious Fighting vs Stunning Shots) will be roughly the same. Damage of bow and dual wielding melee is comparable as my example above shows. The rogue is a bit better - if he's facing double-afflicted targets all the time and doesn't have to move a lot.

Now the pet's damage and Driving Flight get added to the damage comparison - and you still want to stick to the statement that a melee dw rogue will severely outdamage a ranger? How does he do it?

Edited by Boeroer, 11 September 2017 - 09:17 PM.


#51
firkraag888

firkraag888

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 277 posts

none of that even makes any sense.

 

@kaylon that is assuming its a wood elf then you should take the rogues racial bonus into consideration aswell, so another 10 hit to crit for the rogues as hearth orlan. Then you have to burn an talent selction to get marksmen witch the rogues doesn't have to do. Twin arrows is NEGTIVE 10 ACCURECY!!!!!!!! wow I forgot about that that is HUGE!!!!!!!!

 

then we are back to positioning the squishy pet to get the stalker link and don't forget you have to burn another talent point to get stalkers link witch I never do when I roll a ranger because it is a complete waste of a talent because the chances of your pet making it alive from one target to the next are next to none


Edited by firkraag888, 11 September 2017 - 10:03 PM.


#52
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    (12) Mage

  • Members
  • 1935 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
It all seems to make perfect sense to me. What are you having trouble understanding firkraag?
  • draego and Boeroer like this

#53
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 6586 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
What you personally do and don't do with a ranger is not important if you want to discuss max dps ranger vs. max dps rogue.

I also don't argue that I never take Reckless Assault because it sounds funny and makes the rogue die more quickly und thus it shouldn't be part of this comparison. Because it's not expedient.

The rogue also needs to pick talents like Two Weapon Style and such to develop his dps. There is no point in complaining about the ranger taking more talents - every char can pick the same amount of talents as abilities.

ACC difference is not huge, it's only 10:

Distant Advantage + Marksman + Stalker's Link - Twinned Arrows = +10 ACC (stacks with every ACC buff)
Perma-stunned target: -30 deflection or the equivalent of +30 ACC

Reckless Assault = +20 ACC (doesn't stack with general ACC buffs)
Hit-to crit conversion of 30% (via Minor Threat and Dirty/Vicious Fighting) more than the ranger. With no misses, no grazes, 50% hits and 50% crits that's 15% more crits at maximum. This conversion doesn't crank up your crit rate by 30%.

Edited by Boeroer, 12 September 2017 - 12:16 AM.

  • Lampros likes this

#54
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    (12) Mage

  • Members
  • 1935 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
It's quite possible that firkraag doesn't realise that crits aren't multiplicative, given he said earlier 'real (damage) not base who cares what the hell are you on about'. Fifteen percent extra crits would be a lot better if that were the case.

#55
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 6586 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Sure. That would be better.

Sadly crits only add a base damage bonus which in this case is 13,5 (sabre base) * 0.9 (with all the crit talents unlocked) = 12 more damage per hit. If we assume only 15% more crits via conversion (which is very generous to assume I think) that's only an increase of 13.5% base damage - equivalent of roughly 2 points of damage per hit without DR through conversion. Meh... Better bring Deep Wounds into the discussion. ;)

Edited by Boeroer, 12 September 2017 - 12:36 AM.


#56
Kaylon

Kaylon

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 797 posts

A few points that weren't mentioned: 

- the rogue can stack Galant's Focus with Reckless Attack for a total of +12acc

- the rogue has also Deep Wounds which adds (1+might bonus) dmg/s

- if we consider the pet dmg, Stunning Shots and Stalker's Link bonuses we also have to consider the time used by the pet to move from target to target, just like for the rogue

- in theory, under Defensive Mindweb, the rogue can also add more damage via Riposte

- the rogue can also stun (Sap) or further lower the defenses (with Persistent Distraction or by applying other afflictions)

- the rogue can do 2 types of damage

 

All that being said here are my results:

 

I considered a wood elf ranger with 30mig/20per using a durganized legendary Persistence (with lash) and his pet VS a hearth orlan rogue with 30mig/20per and a durganized legendary Tidefall (with lash).

 

Both are using the Gauntlets of Swiftness and potions of alacrity for nearly 0% recovery.

 

On top of the 60% dmg bonus from might and the 55% from legendary they have:

- ranger - 20% dmg from Stalker's Link, 15% dmg from Apprentice Sneak Attack, 40% dmg from flanking (resting+boots), 12% dmg from hit to crit conversion 

- rogue - 20% dmg from Reckless Attack, 15% dmg from Two Handed Style, 50% dmg from Sneak Attack, 100% dmg from Death Blows, 30% dmg from flanking (resting+boots), 30% dmg from hit to crit conversion

 

They both have 120% crit damage (durgan+merciless hand+dungeon delver).

 

The ranger has 20% hit to crit (and since 50% of the attacks are hits he will have 10% more crits overall, ie 0.1*120%=12% more dmg), the rogue has 50% hit to crit (and since 50% of the attacks are hits we will have 25% more crits overall, ie 0.25*120%=30% more dmg) .

 

The rogue deals 1.6 raw dmg/s with Deep Wounds.

 

The ranger has 116 accuracy with Stalker's Link, while the rogue has 118 with Reckless Assault and Galant's Focus. Both of them attack every 1s.

 

The wolf pet deals 16-23 base damage,has 8DR penetration (base+Vicious Companion) and a total of 212% dmg bonuses (72% level bonuses, 15% Vicious Companion, 30% Merciless Companion, 50% Predator's Sense, 15%might, 30% flanking). His accuracy at lv16 is 105. He attacks roughly every 3s.

 

The rogue will do on average every 1s: 

17*(1+.6+.55+.2+.15+.5+1+.3+.3)=78.2 slash/thrust dmg (weapon), 19.5 elemental dmg (lash), 31.3 raw dmg (wounding), 1.6 raw dmg (deep wounds) for a total of  (130.6dmg - 1.25*DR)

 

The ranger will do on average every 1s:

25*(1+.6+.55+.2+.15+.4+.12)=75.5 thrust dmg (weapon), 18.9 elemental dmg (lash), 30,2 raw dmg (wounding) for a total of (124.6 - 2.5*DR)

 

The pet will do every 3s:

19.5*(1+2.12)=60.8 thrust dmg (fangs) if the target has less than 9DR and a total of (68.8-DR) if the target has at least 9DR

that also means the pet will do on average every 1s: (20.3 dmg) if the target has less than 9DR and (22,9 - .33DR) if the target has at least 9DR

 

Both the ranger and the pet will do on average every 1s: (144.9 - 2.5*DR) dmg if the target has less than 9DR and (147.5 - 2.88*DR) if the target has at least 9DR

 

Conclusions:

- without the pet the ranger is always outdamaged by the rogue (higher dps, faces less DR, dual dmg type)

- ranger+pet outdamage the rogue if the DR<9; if DR>=9 the rogue gains again the upper hand because he faces less DR and has 2 types of damage

 

If the ranger has an accuracy advantage then he can gain the upper hand at higher DR too... And if the rogue uses 2 weapons he will be outdamaged even more easily.


  • Dr <3 and Lampros like this

#57
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 6586 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Thanks a lot. Very thoroughly done.

We could add Driving Flight as well. In that case the ranger will outdamage the rogue all the time if there are enemies behind the initial target (20° arc). Stunning shots also works on them by the way. But of course that's not single target damage - but damage nonetheless.

As I said, the rogue gains most of his awesome stuff earlier and that's an advantage.

I only wanted to oppose the genral statement that a dw rogue will severely outdamage a ranger.

This comparison doesn't take into account the movement that has to be done. Even if the pet has to move as well - the ranger doesn't. I think we can assume that the ranger can place one shot while melees are running from foe to foe.
  • Lampros likes this

#58
Blades of Vanatar

Blades of Vanatar

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 615 posts
  • Location:Khatovar
I live it when you guys argue 'best' scenarios. It brings out all of the juicy math into the argument. It always makes me restart with a character build of who I think is winning the argument. Of course I just end up restarting again when the next thread pops up, but at least the new build excitement last for a day or two. So.... thanks for disagreeing. 👍
  • JerekKruger, Boeroer and Dr <3 like this

#59
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 6586 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Hehe. :)

By the way: I just loaded up a savegame where I had two similar lvl 12 rangers. One with Persistence and one with Stormcaller.

The latter got Stormcaller a lot later obviously but still did 40% more damage overall (char sheet - so without wounding damage(?) and pet damage). I didn't play them that differently and they almost have the same talents and abilites. Items are also not that spectacularly different.

Surly Persistence does the highest single target dps with a high MIG ranger on paper, but maybe Stormcaller is not that far off and the better dps weapon overall? The damage of Relentless Storm and the -6 shock DR as well as the dual damage type seems to be as good as wounding, if not better (pet's Predator's Sense aside for now). You can have a proc chance of 19 (Twinned Arrows) up to 35% (+Driving Flight) with every shot. What do you guys think? Or how do you explain those numbers?

Edit: oh wait - Stormcaller is already superb while Persistence only has exceptional, oops. But still...?

Edited by Boeroer, 12 September 2017 - 06:34 AM.

  • Lampros likes this

#60
Kaylon

Kaylon

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 797 posts

Without the legendary enchantment and the wounding (also depending on might) you cut easily 30-40% of the Persistence damage...


Edited by Kaylon, 12 September 2017 - 06:49 AM.

  • Lampros likes this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users