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Dual Endurance Drain weapon Rogue?


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#21
Blades of Vanatar

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Pets don't die... there just beginning of the fight meat shields that only get knocked out. Just set them to Aggressive AI and ignore them once the fights start. That's what makes them awesome. They're great distractions while you rain death.
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#22
Lampros

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Pets don't die... there just beginning of the fight meat shields that only get knocked out. Just set them to Aggressive AI and ignore them once the fights start. That's what makes them awesome. They're great distractions while you rain death.

 

But don't Rangers get debuffed to uselessness when pets get knocked out? That was my understanding...



#23
JerekKruger

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But don't Rangers get debuffed to uselessness when pets get knocked out? That was my understanding...

 

Uselessness is going a bit far: it's -10 Accuracy (bad), -2 Might (bad, but not that bad) and -2 Resolve (usually irrelevant) which goes away if the pet is brought back to consciousness. If the Ranger takes the Vengeful Grief ability then as well as those penalties, they get the following buffs for a short while (I can't remember the duration): +20% Damage (outweighs the -2 Might by far), +1.3 Move Speed (situationally useful) and +20% Attack Speed (very good unless your recovery is already zero).

 

All in all I'd say that, even without Vengeful Grief, the penalty for a pet being knocked unconscious isn't a big deal so long as you're already on top of your Accuracy buffing game. On top of that, in fights where it matters you could always resurrect the pet to remove the debuff.


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#24
Lampros

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But don't Rangers get debuffed to uselessness when pets get knocked out? That was my understanding...

 

Uselessness is going a bit far: it's -10 Accuracy (bad), -2 Might (bad, but not that bad) and -2 Resolve (usually irrelevant) which goes away if the pet is brought back to consciousness. If the Ranger takes the Vengeful Grief ability then as well as those penalties, they get the following buffs for a short while (I can't remember the duration): +20% Damage (outweighs the -2 Might by far), +1.3 Move Speed (situationally useful) and +20% Attack Speed (very good unless your recovery is already zero).

 

All in all I'd say that, even without Vengeful Grief, the penalty for a pet being knocked unconscious isn't a big deal so long as you're already on top of your Accuracy buffing game. On top of that, in fights where it matters you could always resurrect the pet to remove the debuff.

 

 

Ah, ok. That's a pretty huge Accuracy debuff though. And can Rangers do decent damage without the pet - relative to other bowmen I can use instead (e.g. Chanter, Cipher, or even Rogue)? My understanding was that a significant portion of the Ranger's DPS come from the pet.

 

And which pet is the most durable and the least micro-management-intensive?



#25
JerekKruger

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Ah, ok. That's a pretty huge Accuracy debuff though. And can Rangers do decent damage without the pet - relative to other bowmen I can use instead (e.g. Chanter, Cipher, or even Rogue)? My understanding was that a significant portion of the Ranger's DPS come from the pet.

 

10 Accuracy is fairly big, but in the mid to late game the only fights where your pet should be dying at tougher ones, and in those you should really cast every Accuracy buff available to you (as well as Deflection debuffs on your enemies), at which point that -10, whilst still bad, becomes much less of an issue.

 

And which pet is the most durable and the least micro-management-intensive?

 

 

To be honest there isn't all that much difference between the pets when it comes to durability. Antelopes and Bears have innate abilities that make them a little tankier (+7 to all defences for the Antelope and +2 Damage Reduction for the Bear) but they'll all be roughly equivalent at tanking (pretty good off-tanks, but definitely not main tank material).


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#26
Lampros

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Ah, ok. That's a pretty huge Accuracy debuff though. And can Rangers do decent damage without the pet - relative to other bowmen I can use instead (e.g. Chanter, Cipher, or even Rogue)? My understanding was that a significant portion of the Ranger's DPS come from the pet.

 

10 Accuracy is fairly big, but in the mid to late game the only fights where your pet should be dying at tougher ones, and in those you should really cast every Accuracy buff available to you (as well as Deflection debuffs on your enemies), at which point that -10, whilst still bad, becomes much less of an issue.

 

And which pet is the most durable and the least micro-management-intensive?

 

 

To be honest there isn't all that much difference between the pets when it comes to durability. Antelopes and Bears have innate abilities that make them a little tankier (+7 to all defences for the Antelope and +2 Damage Reduction for the Bear) but they'll all be roughly equivalent at tanking (pretty good off-tanks, but definitely not main tank material).

 

 

Antelopes being so tanky - sounds so counter-intuitive! ;)

 

In fact, why are they even a ranger (a sort of hunter?) pets? They are the hunted! ;)



#27
draego

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Ye i find the wolf to be sturdy enough. You just need to pick your spots. Let the pet hit soft targets, flanking, or hold back several ticks while your frontline companions engage. Or just go full ranger melee and flank with both pet and ranger fun stuff if you like lots of micromanagement. The melee version comes around once you get stunning shots which works in melee. 


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#28
Blades of Vanatar

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Bears are sturdiest imo. As long as the pet is alive your Ranger will pour damage into the enemy. I always add DR to my bear early on. Love to park my moon wells next to my pet.
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#29
firkraag888

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Rangers won't dish out damage like a rogue.

A dual weilding rogue glass cannon optimized for crits, sneaks and death blows will severely out damage a ranger.

#30
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No, he will not.

 

Because of:

 

- the ranger doesn't need to run to his target and thus doesn't lose dps while moving (or doing Shadow Step or Escape)
- will have +100% "real" damage (not base! - this is way better than Deathblows) via Twinned Arrows all the time without the need for afflictions
- he will have perma-stun which leads to a lot of crits as well (usually rangers have the same hit/crit ratio as rogues by the end of the game )
- he will have Driving Flight (2 * 60% "real" - not base - damage with Twinned Arrows)
- he will have +10 accuracy and +20% damage via Stalker's Link and Stalker's Torc (a bit like Reckless Assault but without drawbacks)

- he will not get disabled or killed that often because he doesn't have to run around and get near melees and/or catch disengagement attacks in order to reach the enemies.

And on top of that comes the pet that can crit around 80-100 dmg if you can utilize Predator's Sense (which you should - easy with Wounding Shot or Env. Strike or Persistence).

 

A rogue most of the time can't dish out that much damage in a given time because he simply can't stack that many multipliying damage bonuses. He only has additive ones. Even with Sneak + Deathblows he's not close. He has the advantage of attack speed if the ranger has not yet reached 0 recovery, but the fact that he has to move a lot in order to apply damage negates this advantage.

I presume you never played a high level ranger?


Edited by Boeroer, 10 September 2017 - 04:40 AM.

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#31
draego

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No, he will not.

 

Because of:

 

- the ranger doesn't need to run to his target and thus doesn't lose dps while moving (or doing Shadow Step or Escape)
- will have +100% "real" damage (not base! - this is way better than Deathblows) via Twinned Arrows all the time without the need for afflictions
- he will have perma-stun which leads to a lot of crits as well (usually rangers have the same hit/crit ratio as rogues by the end of the game )
- he will have Driving Flight (2 * 60% "real" - not base - damage with Twinned Arrows)
- he will have +10 accuracy and +20% damage via Stalker's Link and Stalker's Torc (a bit like Reckless Assault but without drawbacks)

- he will not get disabled or killed that often because he doesn't have to run around and get near melees and/or catch disengagement attacks in order to reach the enemies.

And on top of that comes the pet that can crit around 80-100 dmg if you can utilize Predator's Sense (which you should - easy with Wounding Shot or Env. Strike or Persistence).

 

A rogue most of the time can't dish out that much damage in a given time because he simply can't stack that many multipliying damage bonuses. He only has additive ones. Even with Sneak + Deathblows he's not close. He has the advantage of attack speed if the ranger has not yet reached 0 recovery, but the fact that he has to move a lot in order to apply damage negates this advantage.

I presume you never played a high level ranger?

 

Ye the ranged ranger is a beast. Definitely a mistake by obsidian to not include pet damage in rangers overall damage numbers. It seems to give people a false since of true damage compared to other classes especially the rogue who is in direct competition for single target dps. 


Edited by draego, 10 September 2017 - 05:41 AM.

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#32
Lampros

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No, he will not.

 

Because of:

 

- the ranger doesn't need to run to his target and thus doesn't lose dps while moving (or doing Shadow Step or Escape)
- will have +100% "real" damage (not base! - this is way better than Deathblows) via Twinned Arrows all the time without the need for afflictions
- he will have perma-stun which leads to a lot of crits as well (usually rangers have the same hit/crit ratio as rogues by the end of the game )
- he will have Driving Flight (2 * 60% "real" - not base - damage with Twinned Arrows)
- he will have +10 accuracy and +20% damage via Stalker's Link and Stalker's Torc (a bit like Reckless Assault but without drawbacks)

- he will not get disabled or killed that often because he doesn't have to run around and get near melees and/or catch disengagement attacks in order to reach the enemies.

And on top of that comes the pet that can crit around 80-100 dmg if you can utilize Predator's Sense (which you should - easy with Wounding Shot or Env. Strike or Persistence).

 

A rogue most of the time can't dish out that much damage in a given time because he simply can't stack that many multipliying damage bonuses. He only has additive ones. Even with Sneak + Deathblows he's not close. He has the advantage of attack speed if the ranger has not yet reached 0 recovery, but the fact that he has to move a lot in order to apply damage negates this advantage.

I presume you never played a high level ranger?

 

Ye the ranged ranger is a beast. Definitely a mistake by obsidian to not include pet damage in rangers overall damage numbers. It seems to give people a false since of true damage compared to other classes especially the rogue who is in direct competition for single target dps. 

 

 

As well as not including Chanter Phrases in the damage calculation - or any DoTs for that matter.



#33
firkraag888

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No, he will not.

Because of:

- the ranger doesn't need to run to his target and thus doesn't lose dps while moving (or doing Shadow Step or Escape)
- will have +100% "real" damage (not base! - this is way better than Deathblows) via Twinned Arrows all the time without the need for afflictions
- he will have perma-stun which leads to a lot of crits as well (usually rangers have the same hit/crit ratio as rogues by the end of the game )
- he will have Driving Flight (2 * 60% "real" - not base - damage with Twinned Arrows)
- he will have +10 accuracy and +20% damage via Stalker's Link and Stalker's Torc (a bit like Reckless Assault but without drawbacks)
- he will not get disabled or killed that often because he doesn't have to run around and get near melees and/or catch disengagement attacks in order to reach the enemies.
And on top of that comes the pet that can crit around 80-100 dmg if you can utilize Predator's Sense (which you should - easy with Wounding Shot or Env. Strike or Persistence).

A rogue most of the time can't dish out that much damage in a given time because he simply can't stack that many multipliying damage bonuses. He only has additive ones. Even with Sneak + Deathblows he's not close. He has the advantage of attack speed if the ranger has not yet reached 0 recovery, but the fact that he has to move a lot in order to apply damage negates this advantage.
I presume you never played a high level ranger?

You are making a lot of assumptions there. You have just painted rangers in a shining light and rogues in a dark one because you don't like rogues. just like I don't like barbs or monks.

1. A rogue doesn't always have to walk over to enemies sometimes they come to them.
2. 100% real damage via twin arrows. Guess what rogues dual wield. Dual weilding fully enchanted and durganized butternut x2 deals more damage then any arrow can.
3. He will have perma stun? Oh really? I thought it was called stunning shots that can stun based on failed save.
4.driving flight is driving flight. Real not base who cares what the hell are you on about
5. Stalkers link gives flanked. If the pet makes it to the front line and if the pet doesn't die within 2 seconds
6.the ranger will not get disabled or killed? You have an immortal ranger?

Rogues have pros and cons rangers have pros and cons. One thing I am certain of is that rangers DO not out damage rogues

Edited by firkraag888, 11 September 2017 - 03:56 AM.


#34
JerekKruger

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1. A rogue doesn't always have to walk over to enemies sometimes they come to them.

 

That doesn't really change the argument. Whether the enemy walks to the rogue, the rogue walks to the enemy, or both, it takes time. That's time the Rogue isn't attacking and, hence, doing damage.

 

2. 100% real damage via twin arrows. Guess what rogues dual wield. Dual weilding fully enchanted and durganized butternut x2 deals more damage then any arrow can.

 

Against a single target sure. Against two I'd be less certain. Against four (with driving flight) I'd be very surprised.

 

4.driving flight is driving flight. Real not base who cares what the hell are you on about

 

Anyone who actually cares about maximising damage cares about the difference between real and base damage as it's quite significant.

 

5. Stalkers link gives flanked. If the pet makes it to the front line and if the pet doesn't die within 2 seconds

 

Not any more it doesn't. It gives +10 Accuracy whenever the Ranger attacks an enemy already engaged by their animal companion. There's nothing stopping the enemy also being flanked for -10 Deflection.

 

As for the pet dying within 2 seconds hardly. With Resilient Companion the pet has DR 27 (29 for a Bear) against all sources at level 16, Legendary Plate Armour has DR 20. Pets aren't going to compare to a Paladin built for tanking obviously, but their job isn't to tank the big heavy hitting enemies. They're plenty resilient enough for their actual job.

 

6.the ranger will not get disabled or killed? You have an immortal ranger?

 

Did you read Boeroer's actual point 6? Because you're not responding to it. 
 

One thing I am certain of is that rangers DO not out damage rogues
 

One thing I'm certain about is that Boeroer knows this game like few others, and whilst he is occasionally wrong it's rare.


Edited by JerekKruger, 11 September 2017 - 04:39 AM.

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#35
firkraag888

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Wow. I got a headache after trying to read that.

#36
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At the end of the game the ranger does more damage than a rogue (just a rough calculation against 0 DR with 20 MIG/DEX and 50/50 hit/crit):

The Rain of Godhag Field:
  • Base damage: 13‑20 (average 16,5 )
  • Stalker's Link: +20% base damage
  • Apprentice's Sneak Attack: +15% base damage
  • Legendary Enchantment: +55% base damage
  • MIG 20: +30% base damage
  • crits with Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver: +90% base damage
  • resulting hit damage: 36+9 lash, crit: 68+17 lash per arrow
  • Twinned Arrows: hit: 45*2 = 90, crit: 85 * 2 =170
  • Driving Flight: I will leave this aside for now
  • ~40 frames per attack with DEX 20 and 0 recovery
  • in 500 frames you will deal 1125 hit damage or 2125 crit damage
  • if hit/crit is 50:50 you will deal around 1625 damage against 0 DR
  • on top come the pet and Driving Flight 
Dual Bittercut:
  • Base damage: 11-16 (average 13,5 )
  • sharp: +20% base damage
  • Spirit of Decay: +20% base damage
  • Reckless Assault: +20% base damage
  • Sneak Attack: +50% base damage
  • Deathblows: +100% base damage
  • Legendary Enchantment: +55% base damage
  • MIG 20: +30% base damage
  • crits with Merciless Hand and Dungeon Delver: +90% base damage
  • resulting physical hit damage: 53 + 16 lash , crit: 65 + 20 lash  per swing
  • ~23 frames per attack with DEX 20 and 0 recovery
  • in 500 frames you will deal 1518 hit damage or 1870 crit damage
  • if hit/crit is 50:50 you will deal 1694 damage against 0 DR
You see that the damage output is nearly the same without Driving Flight and without the pet's damage. I assumed that the ranger only has a 25% lash and the rogue a 30% lash by the way. This calculation is already in favour of the rogue because I assumed that there are always two afflictions on the target. I assumed that he can attack without pause/without moving, too.
I left aside armor penalties and DR just to show the direction this is going.
 
So one can safely assume further that the ranger is the better damage dealer once he has Stunning Shots, Driving Flight and Twinned Arrows.

But the advantage of the dual wielding rogue over a bow ranger is that he starts with Sneak Attack and higher attack speed - also and gets Deathblows at lvl 11. While the best abilites of the (bow) ranger come at lvl  7, 11 and 13. So for a good part of the game the rogue will be able to deal a bit more dps if things run smoothly (affliction setup, not getting knocked out and so on).
 
However my point was to show that the general statement
 

Rangers won't dish out damage like a rogue.
A dual weilding rogue glass cannon optimized for crits, sneaks and death blows will severely out damage a ranger.


is not true.

I like rogues over rangers by the way. But that doesn't influence their performance.

Edited by Boeroer, 11 September 2017 - 09:07 AM.

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#37
bigwillystyle

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Good to see that twelve year olds are playing this game as well.  Bodes well for the future of isometric RPGs.



#38
firkraag888

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@boerer

You haven't taken into consideration that rogue consistently crits. With his super high accuracey , the highest in the game with the right talents, and his crit increasing talents. A rogue will crit about 40% of the time then sneaks and deaths get applied above that also.

#39
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I have. But it's hard to tell.

As I said, rangers and rogues usually end up with the same hit/crit ratio in the end - mainly because of Stunning Shots I guess.

You might not know that Stunning Shots causes stun on hit(!) and crit. This leads to perma-stun (with ok INT and attack speed) as soon as the pet engages and that leads to a lot of crits from ranger and pet alike.

Rangers start with the same ACC as rogues by the way.

But yeah, hard to tell. I would need to dig out several old saves with high level rangers and rogues and compare the hits and crits.

I don't think this can outweigh the pet's damage, Driving Flight's damage and the dps loss from movement though.

Edited by Boeroer, 11 September 2017 - 10:03 AM.

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#40
Blades of Vanatar

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I have. But it's hard to tell.

As I said, rangers and rogues usually end up with the same hit/crit ratio in the end - mainly because of Stunning Shots I guess.

You might not know that Stunning Shots causes stun on hit(!) and crit. This leads to perma-stun (with ok INT and attack speed) as soon as the pet engages and that leads to a lot of crits from ranger and pet alike.

Rangers start with the same ACC as rogues by the way.

But yeah, hard to tell. I would need to dig out several old saves with high level rangers and rogues and compare the hits and crits.

I don't think this can outweigh the pet's damage, Driving Flight's damage and the dps loss from movement though.


Don't forget all of the time the Rogue spends unconscious in the early game. If you tank him up early his DPS drops off. Ranger will always be firing from the get go while their pet is dishing out damage as well.

I have created customized parties with multiple Rangers and others with multiple Rogues. The Ranger brigade absolutely dominates the game. My fav was 3 Rangers with Bears, 2 Druids, 1 Barb.

The Rogues struggled a bit against the bounties/bosses.
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