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Walking Part 2


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#21
Wormerine

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I promise: If I'll ever make a game, this will be the first feature that will be implemented.
 
Wait...
 
I once made a game and it was the first feature that was implemented. Too bad that it never got finished.


Unless it was a walking simulator then you should have started from implementing and developing core game mechanics which would make the base for the rest of the experience ;-P

#22
Osvir

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That was dumb.

 

Well I'd rather talk about walking then that other nonsense topic which everyone can't seem to stay away from.

 

I love going for a good walk, oh yes! I could go for a walk right now... When's the last time you walked?

 

edit: I really feel like playing Suikoden now... great avatar!

Gosh how could I miss the second post in the thread?? xD

I walk around 11'000+ steps a day (between 0.8 and 1.0 metric miles a day). It has to do with the job (construction). It's funny to look at my step meter during the weekends xD (I average between 1 to approximately ~20 steps on weekends :p). Mostly because I don't carry my phone with me just to go to the fridge and back :p hmm, might do that next weekend, just to see how many steps it actually is.

EDIT: And Suikoden is probably one of my favorite game series of all time. Interesting, didn't think about it but... but you can "Hold Button" to run ;P
EDIT2: Wrote 8 and 10 metric miles when it was a lot less xD (10 kilometers = 1 metric mile ~ 0.6 miles/36000 feet)
 


Edited by Osvir, 09 September 2017 - 12:42 PM.

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#23
Lephys

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It's something your character does all the time. A person walks unless he has a reason to run.

 

This. People probably hear "walk" in regard to movement speed and think "THOSE A-HOLES WANT TO SLOW OUR CHARACTERS DOWN!", but your characters don't actually have an inherent speed that's getting "slowed down." PLUS, even if you didn't slow the actual movement speed down any, the characters could still have walking animations until something in the game had them actually run (maybe some escape sequence, or a sprint ability, etc.). It's kind of like... if one shouts all the time, how does that person easily emphasize sudden concern, anger, etc.?

 

Thinking back, there are a lot of JRPGs and such that had characters animatedly walking/trekking around, but they still moved pretty quickly (probably abnormally so, but who really cares when it comes down to it?). Regardless of whatever animation your character is performing, they're either moving at a reasonable speed or they aren't. There's either a reason for it to take X amount of time to traverse an area, or there isn't. Hence the birth of fast travel. It often gets misused, but the purpose of fast travel is to skip travel when it's unnecessary. The reason you usually can't take advantage of it until you've cleared an area or reached a certain checkpoint is because the game is designed for you to actually reach that checkpoint at less-than-instant speeds. Kinda like how the purpose of level 10 is for you to have to progress to level 10, rather than immediately possessing all of the qualities of a level 10 character.

 

TL;DR -- walking animations as the default, even with maybe unrealistically fast movement speed, would be fantastic, with sprinting/running/fast-stepping-during-epic-combat-maneuvers actually standing out and impacting things a lot over the course of an entire game.


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#24
Baltic

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No one actually has a problem with the idea of a walking toggle. They likely don't see it as essential for realism seeing as there will be countless other breaks from reality in game. Always joggging in a break most people can cope with which is why some people feel other things should be prioritised first.
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#25
grumpymoose

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I don't see it as a must, but I don't really see a problem if it's in either. I honestly couldn't be more neutral on the topic. Whatever happens is fine, really, even if nothing happens at all.



#26
Sedrefilos

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Others have taken approaches on this. DOS 1&2, for example, have characters walk if you click at a close destination and they pick up speed and run if they have to go far. Dynamic and neat. Others games have a walk-to when you click once to the destination and they run if you double-click. Not that I care much about walking, but this are two simple ways to implement it imo.


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#27
algroth

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I might be mistaken, but I assume that most players who want walking in Pillars do so so as to slow down world exploration and to aid in their immersion as roleplayers and so on - at least this is what I recall reading on the subject. The video on the OP goes about a pretty different matter, and that is the character design and personality as seen through their own unique gait. I'm personally not a big fan of the Street Fighter example linked since I honestly find its sexualization a tad juvenile, it almost borders into teen smut. I do, on the other hand, love Ivern's gait from League of Legends and have heard countless people comment on it:

 

giphy.gif

 

This argument can also be used with regards to running, or animation in general. For the companions and other important NPCs the gait, whether walking or running, could have custom animations such that they better reflect who the characters are or what they are carrying. Some of that does seem to be making its way into Deadfire already, going by the way Xoti holds out her lantern before her while running, but it could be translated onto other characters as well. Edér could have a more relaxed jog to him, being a fairly athletic and robust person, while Serafen, being of a smaller race, could be trying more frantically to keep up with the pace of the longer-legged characters. All of this doesn't really speak in favour of a walk toggle so much as animation and attention to character detail, though.


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#28
Lephys

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No one actually has a problem with the idea of a walking toggle. They likely don't see it as essential for realism seeing as there will be countless other breaks from reality in game. Always joggging in a break most people can cope with which is why some people feel other things should be prioritised first.

 

It's objectively no less necessary than a non-combat stance in addition to a combat one. Everyone could simply jog around everywhere with their weapons out. Why waste animation resources on a non-combat stance?


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#29
rjshae

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From time to time while walking, characters should make an easy Reflex save or randomly trip and fall onto their faces. If combat starts before they can stand up, they begin prone. :teehee:


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#30
Wormerine

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No one actually has a problem with the idea of a walking toggle. They likely don't see it as essential for realism seeing as there will be countless other breaks from reality in game. Always joggging in a break most people can cope with which is why some people feel other things should be prioritised first.

 
It's objectively no less necessary than a non-combat stance in addition to a combat one. Everyone could simply jog around everywhere with their weapons out. Why waste animation resources on a non-combat stance?

I was never bother by my character running with their weapons out, just as I am not bothered that my character is more fit than I am and runs everywhere. I am also not bothered that I don't need to wait in a line to buy stuff, and that shops are open 24/7 and that traverns always have a free room even though I never book them. The stash was a very welcome addition, even though it doesn't make much sense and it is nice to have a quest log to remind me what I was doing after 2 weeks of not playing.
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#31
daven

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Others have taken approaches on this. DOS 1&2, for example, have characters walk if you click at a close destination and they pick up speed and run if they have to go far. Dynamic and neat. Others games have a walk-to when you click once to the destination and they run if you double-click. Not that I care much about walking, but this are two simple ways to implement it imo.

I believe the same thing happens in Shadowrun Returns/Dragonfall/etc. That's a pretty good way to do it I reckon.


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#32
Wormerine

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Others have taken approaches on this. DOS 1&2, for example, have characters walk if you click at a close destination and they pick up speed and run if they have to go far. Dynamic and neat. Others games have a walk-to when you click once to the destination and they run if you double-click. Not that I care much about walking, but this are two simple ways to implement it imo.


I believe the same thing happens in Shadowrun Returns/Dragonfall/etc. That's a pretty good way to do it I reckon.

Oh yes they did. It annoyed me a lot. I would much prefer walk/run toggle.

#33
Baltic

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No one actually has a problem with the idea of a walking toggle. They likely don't see it as essential for realism seeing as there will be countless other breaks from reality in game. Always joggging in a break most people can cope with which is why some people feel other things should be prioritised first.

 
It's objectively no less necessary than a non-combat stance in addition to a combat one. Everyone could simply jog around everywhere with their weapons out. Why waste animation resources on a non-combat stance?
I'm not entirely sure if you're referring to the combat stance or the lack of sheathing weapons in Pillars 1. If you are referring to the stance it has some minimal use in informing you if the start and end of combat. If you are referring to the lack of sheathing they didn't need to change that, people were able to accept it in the first Pillars. Also the main difference is that Obsidian has already added those. We are not arguing that they should have put a walking toggle in instead of something else. Instead we are asking them to put something extra in the game. The features already added have no baring on this discussion unless it changes to a request to swap them out for a walking toggle.

#34
Lephys

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The features already added have no baring on this discussion unless it changes to a request to swap them out for a walking toggle.

 

A feature having been already added has no bearing on its ability to pertain to this discussion. Especially as it depends on how someone is using said feature.

 

Also, I feel like you've misunderstood me, because you seem to think I'm arguing against walking being in the game, when it is quite the opposite.

 

Allow me to elaborate: Combat-vs-noncombat stance = a distinct set of character animations that is already in "the game" (was already in the first game, so it's probable that it will be in Deadfire). What does this mean? That a line of reasoning was already followed leading to a "second" animation set being deemed worthy of their time and resources. What is walking? A "second" animation set for the characters, which we are arguing in favor of being deemed worthy of the developers' time and resources to add to the game.

 

So... total bearing being had there. :)



#35
Baltic

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The features already added have no baring on this discussion unless it changes to a request to swap them out for a walking toggle.

 
A feature having been already added has no bearing on its ability to pertain to this discussion. Especially as it depends on how someone is using said feature.
 
Also, I feel like you've misunderstood me, because you seem to think I'm arguing against walking being in the game, when it is quite the opposite.
 
Allow me to elaborate: Combat-vs-noncombat stance = a distinct set of character animations that is already in "the game" (was already in the first game, so it's probable that it will be in Deadfire). What does this mean? That a line of reasoning was already followed leading to a "second" animation set being deemed worthy of their time and resources. What is walking? A "second" animation set for the characters, which we are arguing in favor of being deemed worthy of the developers' time and resources to add to the game.
 
So... total bearing being had there. :)
I very clearly presumed you had the same stance as me, pro walking toggle. I find the point I am trying to make very articulate so sorry. As I mentioned earlier combat stances have a very minor use in signalling the beginning and end of a fight. The current request in this thread is for Obsidian to add the toggle alongside everything else in the game. It has been their decision to (so far) not spend any money or time on this feature. This suggest to some degree that they do not see it as worthy of their resources. Everything else in the game they have already decided is worthy of them. Unless we are trying to request that they put the funds for one feature towards a walking toggle instead, the mention of other features add nothing as their existance does not give Obsidian the resources for the toggle or the popularity to make it worth adding.

#36
Daemonocracy

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I personally have skipped many games for this only reason, tyranny included. I can play games ignoring little annoyances because I don´t have any OCT, but this is a annoyance you see 99% of the playtime. It´s not the lack of drinking potion animations or any other stupid thing. It's something your character does all the time. A person walks unless he has a reason to run. I think it's not that hard to understand. Some game developers or hardcore players fail to see this point of view because they don´t play like normal persons, they are always testing things or running to the next point of interest. Not all people play like that. For me, the game is in the journey, not in the achivement.

 

It's not necessary for me to enjoy the game, but as the OP mentioned it is one of those little things which I do miss when gone. The SFV video was perfect because it highlights how much personality walking has over running (though I would to have a Dwarf that runs with two limp wrists flapping about). I guess I'm old fashioned and like every little detail I can to roleplay my character.



#37
Wormerine

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The SFV video was perfect because it highlights how much personality walking has over running.

 

Well, no, it shows how character can be characterized via dedicated animation. If they used same walking animation for every character it would be just generic. And if it was a runner and they would put the same about of money into animating each individual character's run I am pretty sure they could achieve a similar effect. 

I am pretty sure the original request was to include an option to walk, not to create unique walking animation for each character. 


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#38
Daemonocracy

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The SFV video was perfect because it highlights how much personality walking has over running.

 

Well, no, it shows how character can be characterized via dedicated animation. If they used same walking animation for every character it would be just generic. And if it was a runner and they would put the same about of money into animating each individual character's run I am pretty sure they could achieve a similar effect. 

I am pretty sure the original request was to include an option to walk, not to create unique walking animation for each character. 

 

 

I was thinking more along the lines of specific walking animations that could be selected for different characters. Running could also have its own personality for each character, but I was thinking of my observations while people watching, where everyone seems to have their own walk however subtle it might be.

 

I don't expect anything to be changed in the game.



#39
Karkarov

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It's objectively no less necessary than a non-combat stance in addition to a combat one. Everyone could simply jog around everywhere with their weapons out. Why waste animation resources on a non-combat stance?

Well that's a bad example, as there is a great reason why you need an "at ease" stance and it's gameplay based.  Simply put, it's a indicator to show you are locked in / out of combat. 

 

Example:  A fight goes poorly, your team is getting beat down, you decide to take the better part of valor.  How do you know when you have run far enough away that you escaped combat?  Easy: Your characters switch to their "at ease" stance.

The reason I have a problem with walk toggle is this.  For a feature to be included in a video game it needs to meet one of two requirements.

 

1: You need it for gameplay reasons, your game will just be missing some feature or function it requires without this thing.

Example: The earlier thing about at ease versus ready for combat stance.

 

2: It is a really cool, fun feature, that may not be needed for gameplay, but it adds something fun that is worth the investment.

Example: Bif the Understudy.  Thanks to Bif you could kill critical NPC's without the plot being broken.  You could have done this by simply making those characters unkillable, but Bif is funnier.

 

A walk toggle does neither of these things.  It isn't needed for gameplay, and like I said somewhere before, player metrics are going to tell you the vast majority of players want to move faster in top down RPGs.  So moving slower is not considered "fun" by most players.

PS: Why is someone comparing a league of legends character who is huge to anything in Eternity?  Your characters will be too small on screen to make out much detail of any movement animation they have, much less how they hold their wrists, or expression.  Also now you want, not just walking animations, but unique walking animations for specific characters????


Edited by Karkarov, 10 September 2017 - 08:11 AM.

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#40
4ward

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i believe Lephys is asking for walking being the default and not for a walk toggle. Which is what i‘d like to have as well. As mentioned, someone running to catch up to a walking char as in BG2 is more effective than characters running with different animations. When animations are slower they‘re more recognizable than when the movement is faster IMO, also i would bet there‘s more walk animations than run animations. But again, the simple trick in BG2 is at least equally effective. Then there‘s immersion and there‘s people out there who care about that. Then slowing down combat movement speed would IMO be cool; i don‘t want to be forced into playing in slow mode. Running is cool, i get that. But as Lephys mentioned, if you make it appear only occasionally then it gets even more cool and special. I did suggest tying it to endurance, you toggle to move faster and it affects your endurance, you take a talent let‘s call it ‚condition‘ and that char can move faster for a short time without losing endurance. So yeah, it‘s not likely that‘ll change for deadfire, but it‘s fun discussing it IMO.


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