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What's on the idiot box?


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343 replies to this topic

#41
algroth

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Varys lost his touch.

He did lose his birds...



#42
HoonDing

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Tyrells were supposed to have a huge army even without Tarly, no? That Lannister army that supposedly took Highgarden was maybe 1,000 men?



#43
Guard Dog

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http://deadline.com/...ica-1202139504/

 

I see Amazon is copying off HBO's paper here. Both series sound highly improbable. In Confederate slavery could not have survived the industrial revolution or the revulsion of the European trade partners the CSA would have had to rely on. The cause of Civil Rights however would have been set back decades... or longer. That would have made a more interesting premise IMO. This idea Amazon has would have caused the Civil War to be extended for years. The South would have literally fought to the last man rather than lose their homes altogether. That's not saying this won't be a good show. But the premise s seriously flawed and good things don't usually spring from that.



#44
Gfted1

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Preacher

 

Herr Starr does not mess around when it comes to career advancement. :lol:



#45
TrueNeutral

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Although I'm surprised the Necromonger way worked. I wouldn't think the entire organisation would suddenly accept him just like that.
 

Tyrells were supposed to have a huge army even without Tarly, no? That Lannister army that supposedly took Highgarden was maybe 1,000 men?


Well damn, I completely forgot about that. You're right. According to show information, Lannisters at their best can raise about 60k and they're not at their best and likely had to leave sizeable contigents to defend the capital among other things, while house Tyrell fields 100k. How the hell did the Lannisters beat them? I don't remember their fancy army being decimated in the plot. From the show's Wiki:
 

House Lannister can raise approximately 60,000 men in a relatively short period of time. As the richest house, the Lannisters' forces are among the best-equipped in the Seven Kingdoms, though House Tyrell commands larger numbers. However, the strength of House Lannister has been badly depleted due to the War of the Five Kings, between the Battle of Blackwater and the battles with Robb Stark, such as the Battle of Oxcross. Nevertheless, It is clear that House Lannister is still able to field tens of thousands of men, even after the losses suffered against Robb Stark. Casterly Rock alone has a garrison of 10,000 Lannister soldiers, showing that the Lannisters still command a considerable amounts of men. Lannister soldiers seem to be well-equipped than any army that Westeros could muster.

 

The Reach is the most fertile and populous region of Westeros, allowing House Tyrell to gain immense wealth (through taxation of the large population) and also to muster an enormous army of 100,000 men. The Tyrells can typically raise and equip almost twice as many soldiers as any of the other Great Houses in Westeros. This makes the Tyrells formidable enemies but excellent allies. In the Battle of the Blackwater, the Tyrell Calvary alongside their Lannister allies defeated Stannis' army, therefore making them and the Lannisters, the most powerful player during the war. The Tyrell army was also responsible for delaying Robb Stark's army from attacking the capital. Their armies marched on the capital to rescue, Margaery Tyrell from the Faith Militant.

Unless the Tyrell's were somehow incredibly damaged by that march, I don't get it. I doubt the defection of House Tarly closed a gap of 40k.

 

EDIT: Hold on, wasn't the Tyrell army deployed to siege the areas supplying King's Landing under the belief the Lannisters would be defending Casterly Rock? That could make up the difference, and I suspect a portion of them were lost while being carried by Yara's fleet. Still, incredibly unclear and unlikely, especially since we saw the Lannisters march upon Highgarden without siege weaponry.


Edited by TrueNeutral, 02 August 2017 - 07:24 AM.


#46
Rosbjerg

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There's a number of things in play here, that did not get conveyed in the show. Speaking from historically comparative point of view.

 

First of all, it's a feudal soceity, so 100k is summoned and not a standing army - many being busy harvesting or preparing for winter. Second, in a feudal society a house rises and falls on it's ability to produce heirs and alliances, in this respect House Tyrell was a losing house and Lannister allying themselves with Tarly would very quickly cause the other local houses to fall in line. After all, the Tarly's could easily continue buisness as is and prevent a very devastating power struggle.



#47
majestic

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There's a number of things in play here, that did not get conveyed in the show. Speaking from historically comparative point of view.

 

First of all, it's a feudal soceity, so 100k is summoned and not a standing army - many being busy harvesting or preparing for winter. Second, in a feudal society a house rises and falls on it's ability to produce heirs and alliances, in this respect House Tyrell was a losing house and Lannister allying themselves with Tarly would very quickly cause the other local houses to fall in line. After all, the Tarly's could easily continue buisness as is and prevent a very devastating power struggle.

 

That's sort of the point. Except Euron's fleet having stealth capabilities (and that could be explained away with general incompetence if one is willing to push it that far) nothing that got shown on the show couldn't happen - the reduction in episodes and streamlining of the storylines however does reduce the time to properly set these things up, in a stark - no pun intended - contrast to the earlier seasons that could draw from more source material.



#48
Hurlshot

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I'd imagine House Tyrell was also still in quite a bit of disarray after losing so many people in the Sept bombing.



#49
Gfted1

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Although I'm surprised the Necromonger way worked. I wouldn't think the entire organisation would suddenly accept him just like that.


I missed a piece of information and was too lazy to go back...
Spoiler


#50
TrueNeutral

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Spoiler


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#51
majestic

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I'd imagine House Tyrell was also still in quite a bit of disarray after losing so many people in the Sept bombing.

 

That's one of the strangest things about GRRM's houses in Westeros. They all seem to have been dying out for a while before the books began. The highborn in Westeros trace their ancestry back at least a hundred generations (or more, depending on the source) yet each house has only a handful of heirs at best - and the Houses in the show have, for casting and budgetarian reasons, even less family members.



#52
Rosbjerg

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Not historically uncommon either - very powerful houses sometimes didn't want to marry off younger sons or daughters too soon, in order to limit the number of potential future claimants.

 

That and it seems there's a tradition in Westeros for 'Cadet branching', like the Karstarks - meaning any family member not directly in line of succession or from the main family, would either seek different means of income and prestige or adopt a different name and start a new smaller house.



#53
majestic

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Not historically uncommon either - very powerful houses sometimes didn't want to marry off younger sons or daughters too soon, in order to limit the number of potential future claimants.

 

Maybe not, but they tended to make heirs by the bunchload. Queen Victoria had what, nine children and Empress Maria Theresa even 16. Having one or two viable heirs and no branches to pick up the slack seems terribly risky in a medieval society like Westeros.



#54
Zoraptor

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The 'typical' medieval noble family was a bit different from Victoria in the 19th century or Maria Theresa in the 18th though, while not modern they were far more advanced than 12th-15th century Europe where childbirth was frequently deadly to the mother and a majority of children died while young even in noble houses. Then you were very lucky to have three sons live to majority ('heir and a spare' was lucky) and if you did have more than two the tendency was to stick any extras into careers where they wouldn't breed- well, wouldn't legitimately breed at least- like the church. In a world without proper medicine even scratches could lead to death from infection so you could very easily lose the heir or spare, and then you did have a linear line. The history of the english royal family has a deviation from direct line on average about every 4 monarchs, and even if you amalgamate cadets like York/ Lancaster to Plantagenet you still get the longest run only being around 300 years.

 

The GoT/ ASOIAF situation is certainly not realistic though except in not having massive families, only nobility I can think of that can trace its roots directly anywhere near even a thousand years are the Percys at ~950 years. Some of the talk in the books about the animosity between the Boltons and Starks makes it very unlikely that one or the other would not have been wiped out earlier, though presumably you just don't hear about the houses that did get historically roflstomped unless they were important to the narrative like the Raines of Castamere.


Edited by Zoraptor, 03 August 2017 - 06:17 PM.

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#55
algroth

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Holy ****, that new GoT episode.



#56
ShadySands

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3 or 4?



#57
algroth

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3 or 4?

4. Got convinced by some friends to watch it because they couldn't stop hyping it up. I'll definitely be watching it again on Sunday though, it was great.


Edited by algroth, 04 August 2017 - 06:24 PM.


#58
HoonDing

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I want to be a dragon.



#59
majestic

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The 'typical' medieval noble family was a bit different from Victoria in the 19th century or Maria Theresa in the 18th though, while not modern they were far more advanced than 12th-15th century Europe where childbirth was frequently deadly to the mother and a majority of children died while young even in noble houses.

 

Point taken, probably shouldn't have used medieval here. I mean society and technology in Westeros seems to be stuck on a medieval level but the Maesters have much more in common with more modern scholars than medieval guesswork, especially when it comes to medicine. No antibiotics of course but hey, Sam just cured GRRM's version of leprosy by following instructions from an old book. Quite a feat.

 

Besides if I recall correctly childbirth remained pretty dangerous until well into the 19th century when Ignaz Semmelweis figured out that proper hygiene helps to prevent childbed fever.

 

Anyway, uhm, Dany really has the most incompetent military commanders ever. Did she buy them from Jon?



#60
Chilloutman

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Bronn my man, still the best guy on the show. Hope next time he will impregnate that b*tch properly

Edited by Chilloutman, 06 August 2017 - 11:55 PM.

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