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Politics 2017 Act 6

Politics 2017

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#21
Guard Dog

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jeez Grom, that was just an example. But I could (and have in the past) make an argument on who human medical care can and should work like Veterinary care where market forces and competition do help keep prices down. Particularly in routine care. Now, my pups get the best treatment I can find as I know yours do too. But that is a choice I make. I'd rather low cost/ low service places like Banfield exist to offer lower income families vet care than have the Government screw the whole thing up with program and price regulation that ruins the free market economics it does have. Without reduced cost clinics some family pets would, by necessity, get no vet care at all.

 

But as for drug prosecution I think education is great. I'm even in favor of using Federal money if it would help. But at the end of the day, teenager or adult, we are all solely responsible for the guy/gal in the mirror. I've never used any unprescribed drug stronger than Motrin or bourbon. And if it were legal today I still wouldn't use. But i would never presume to make that choice for someone else. If a teenager, against all better advice and teaching, wants to throw their life away on drugs, well it was their life to throw away. It always was.

 

The logic of the government makes no sense to me. To "save" said teenager from ruining their life with drugs we'll lock them up for 10-20 years and then send them back at age 30 with no education and a felony conviction. But hey... saved them from drugs.

 

They ought to make me the AG. No victim = No prison time.



#22
Ben No.3

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"I'd rather low cost/ low service places like Banfield exist to offer lower income families vet care than have the Government screw the whole thing up with program and price regulation that ruins the free market economics it does have"

Do you realise what you are saying? You just justified giving low-income-households, so the largest amount of the population, worse medical treatment. And you justified this based on a vague mathematical model. Do you really consider that humane treatment?

#23
Sharp_one

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"I'd rather low cost/ low service places like Banfield exist to offer lower income families vet care than have the Government screw the whole thing up with program and price regulation that ruins the free market economics it does have"

Do you realise what you are saying? You just justified giving low-income-households, so the largest amount of the population, worse medical treatment. And you justified this based on a vague mathematical model. Do you really consider that humane treatment?

 

And how's that different from now? You will always have worse/cheaper products for lower income and better/expensive products for high income.

That's not even the question, and if you think it is you don't know life. The question is - will the "worse medical treatment" on free market be better than "worse medical treatment" in socialistic model. The answer is and always will be - free market is better.

 

Is this humane? Considering that humans are the only species that have medical treatment and incomes. Yes it is humane. It's even fundamentally humane to get what you pay for in a quality correlated to the amount you paid. 



#24
Gromnir

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But as for drug prosecution I think education is great. I'm even in favor of using Federal money if it would help. But at the end of the day, teenager or adult, we are all solely responsible for the guy/gal in the mirror. I've never used any unprescribed drug stronger than Motrin or bourbon. And if it were legal today I still wouldn't use. But i would never presume to make that choice for someone else. If a teenager, against all better advice and teaching, wants to throw their life away on drugs, well it was their life to throw away. It always was.

 

obviously we got a different notion 'bout how well privatization has worked for keeping vet costs down? if we were less well off, there is numerous times we woulda' had to consider euthanizing pets for relative minor problems. 

 

*shrug*

 

as to drugs, we complete disagree with you 'bout responsibility.  our time working at juvenile hall is the reason we will never have kids, but it also inspired us to do a fair bit o' reading 'bout childhood development, particular kiddie brain development.  perhaps gd recalls what he were thinking 'bout during teenage years, but you cannot genuine reflect 'pon how you thought.  the brain you got now is substantial different than the one you had in junior high and high school.  complex morality choices ain't possible 'til relative late puberty.  as adults we often see teenagers and is baffled by their immaturity, but the immaturity is not only the norm, it is a result o' brain development. bad parenting and/or lack o' experience is what most o' us is gonna point to when we see kids do wrong. ain't that simple.  good parenting teaches kids to suppress their natural immaturity until their brain develops enough so they can actual make enlightened choices. 

 

we got a few folks on this board with med backgrounds, and hurl is a teacher who must needs have taken numerous childhood development classes to get his credential.  is so difficult for us to recall how we were using our brains when we were teens.  sure, we likely look back on moments o' teenage stoopidity and probable chalk it up to our inexperience, but your brain were genuine different during those years, and even good parenting cannot complete overcome brain development issues. you were inherent irresponsible as a teen, even if you were able to suppress immaturity.

 

opioids is also blurring the lines o' responsibility.  random guy is prescribed opioids by a doctor.  after all, the vast majority o' opioid addictions begin with dr. prescriptions.  random guy works +50 hours a week doing construction or law enforcement or some other job.  the only way he can work is with the aid o' painkillers.  private contractor roofer guy don't work and his family don't eat.  so, he takes opioids as directed by his doctor, and becomes addicted.  roofer guy's pain ain't going away, but as with any such medicine, he is needing increase dosage to get similar/same relief. so, when roofer guy wakes up one morning and realizes he is addicted to opioids, who is responsible?  the roofer?  of course he is responsible, but he is also an addict, which again, by definition, means he is no longer able to act reasonable and responsible regarding his drug use.

 

just don't take the drugs in the first place, eh?  is not a viable option for many. "for there was never yet philosopher that could endure the toothache patiently."-much ado about nothing, shakespeare.  roofer guy or cop or (ironic) dentist needs to work.  even if one willpowers self though pain, the capacity to do work at a high level will be diminished.  our hypothetical dentist with a toothache could likely will himself to endure pain, but no doubt gd would be concerned if he were getting a root canal from a white-knuckled and pale dentist who were sweating profusely.

 

dunno.  as we said already, we got no answers, but am thinking gd is oversimplifying.

 

HA! Good Fun!


Edited by Gromnir, 15 May 2017 - 09:56 AM.


#25
Ben No.3

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"I'd rather low cost/ low service places like Banfield exist to offer lower income families vet care than have the Government screw the whole thing up with program and price regulation that ruins the free market economics it does have"

Do you realise what you are saying? You just justified giving low-income-households, so the largest amount of the population, worse medical treatment. And you justified this based on a vague mathematical model. Do you really consider that humane treatment?

And how's that different from now? You will always have worse/cheaper products for lower income and better/expensive products for high income.
That's not even the question, and if you think it is you don't know life. The question is - will the "worse medical treatment" on free market be better than "worse medical treatment" in socialistic model. The answer is and always will be - free market is better.

Are you claiming that the poor in a strictly capitalist economy has better healthcare than the poor in a strictly socialist economy? My friend, history seems to prove you wrong: hardcore conservative Bismarck had to implement some degree of free health care in order to not have the poor support the communists. Adam Smith himself, if I remember correctly, supported governmental healthcare (or welfare generally, I'll have to search through the texts when I'm home).

Is this humane? Considering that humans are the only species that have medical treatment and incomes. Yes it is humane. It's even fundamentally humane to get what you pay for in a quality correlated to the amount you paid.

Your line of thought is: "Humans have produced free market health care, therefore, free market healthcare is humane".

Following your logic:
Humans have invented torture, therefore torture is humane.

Do you see the problem? Or is there something I'm missing? Because that seems fundamentally wrong.

Edited by Ben No.3, 15 May 2017 - 10:12 AM.


#26
Sharp_one

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Are you claiming that the poor in a strictly capitalist economy has better healthcare than the poor in a strictly socialist economy? My friend, history seems to prove you wrong: hardcore conservative Bismarck had to implement some degree of free health care in order to not have the poor support the communists. Adam Smith himself, if I remember correctly, supported governmental healthcare (or welfare generally, I'll have to search through the texts when I'm home).


Historically, people in socialistic countries rise money to be treated in capitalistic countries. Not the other way around.
You are right that conservatives used to implement some government health care systems because communists PROMISED the poor a good and free health care, but they never HAD one, not once not ever. The result of their promises are millions of dead people. Mostly, you guess it - the poor and the sick.
I know you live in LaLaLand, but here down on Earth my employee was loosing sight and needed surgery asap or be blind forever and got a term for operation in government healthcare system in 7...years. We (company) paid for his surgery and the same doctor, in the same hospital made his surgery in 4 days after the payment. That's all I need or care to know about public healthcare.
 

Your line of thought is: "Humans have produced free market health care, therefore, free market healthcare is humane".

Following your logic:
Humans have invented torture, therefore torture is humane.

Do you see the problem? Or is there something I'm missing? Because that seems fundamentally wrong.


Homo sum; humani nihil a me alienum puto.

I found it hilarious when people call inhumane something that is strictly practiced by humans. I found the concept of something being humane or not ridiculous.

Edited by Sharp_one, 15 May 2017 - 11:45 AM.

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#27
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...my employee was loosing sight and needed surgery asap or be blind forever and got a term for operation in government healthcare system in 7...years. We (company) paid for his surgery and the same doctor, in the same hospital made his surgery in 4 days after the payment.


That just blew my mind.

#28
Sarex

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That just blew my mind.

 

That is the sad truth. While everyone does have a right to free healthcare, people have to take a number... Almost every doctor in the government healthcare system has a private clinic and that private clinic lets you skip the ticket machine (they even use government facilities to do the procedures).

 

Usually, the people who have an urgent issue get pushed up the line, but that again depends on how old you are and other factors.


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#29
Azdeus

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...my employee was loosing sight and needed surgery asap or be blind forever and got a term for operation in government healthcare system in 7...years. We (company) paid for his surgery and the same doctor, in the same hospital made his surgery in 4 days after the payment.


That just blew my mind.

 

 

My friend got his treatment in 24 hours, the problem lies not in public healthcare but where they've chosen to put their funding.

 

 

 

 

That just blew my mind.

 

That is the sad truth. While everyone does have a right to free healthcare, people have to take a number... Almost every doctor in the government healthcare system has a private clinic and that private clinic lets you skip the ticket machine (they even use government facilities to do the procedures).

 

Usually, the people who have an urgent issue get pushed up the line, but that again depends on how old you are and other factors.

 

 

This is mindblowing to me, they're using government facilities for their private clinics? Sounds more like a scam to me.


Edited by Azdeus, 15 May 2017 - 12:55 PM.


#30
Sarex

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This is mindblowing to me, they're using government facilities for their private clinics? Sounds more like a scam to me.

 

They just write it up as if they examined you in the government institution, it's basically just skipping the line for cash.

 

 

 

My friend got his treatment in 24 hours, the problem lies not in public healthcare but where they've chosen to put their funding.

 

The problem lies in the population of the country, the economic state of the country and the level of corruption.


Edited by Sarex, 15 May 2017 - 01:13 PM.


#31
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This is mindblowing to me, they're using government facilities for their private clinics? Sounds more like a scam to me.

 
They just write it up as if they examined you in the government institution, it's basically just skipping the line for cash.
 
 

My friend got his treatment in 24 hours, the problem lies not in public healthcare but where they've chosen to put their funding.

 
The problem lies in the population of the country, the economic state of the country and the level of corruption.

 
I'm genuinely having a hard time wrapping my brain around that wait time. To me, blindness ranks pretty high up there on the "urgency scale". And Poland only has a population ~10% of the US. My government cant find its ass with both hands, this type heath system would be a total catastrophe here.

#32
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I found it hilarious when people call inhumane something that is strictly practiced by humans. I found the concept of something being humane or not ridiculous.

 

 

This isn't how words work.



#33
Gfted1

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Ok, so lets assume those two wait times (24h and 7y) represent extreme outliers in each direction. Can some of you guys from across the pond give me some more examples of typical wait times for various procedures?

#34
Elerond

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https://www.washingt...m=.b1e7bb6fb436

 

"President Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said that Trump’s disclosures jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.

The information Trump relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said.

The partner had not given the United States permission to share the material with Russia, and officials said that Trump’s decision to do so risks cooperation from an ally that has access to the inner workings of the Islamic State. After Trump’s meeting, senior White House officials took steps to contain the damage, placing calls to the CIA and National Security Agency.

“This is code-word information,” said a U.S. official familiar with the matter, using terminology that refers to one of the highest classification levels used by American spy agencies. Trump “revealed more information to the Russian ambassador than we have shared with our own allies.”"

 

Trump seems to go by old saying "keep friends away and enemies closer" 



#35
Azdeus

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Ok, so lets assume those two wait times (24h and 7y) represent extreme outliers in each direction. Can some of you guys from across the pond give me some more examples of typical wait times for various procedures?

Iirc my father had to wait two months to get his cataract surgery, my mother got her chemo for arthritis pretty quickly aswell.
 
Also
http://vantetider.se...seradOperation/ Specialist surgery (Section "Hur länge har man väntat"=How long did they wait; Dagar=Days)
http://vantetider.se...ialiseradBesok/ Specialist treatment


Edited by Azdeus, 15 May 2017 - 01:45 PM.

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#36
Volourn

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So.. a black woman  who happens to be a scientist won mIss USA.... and the liberals SJW nazis are hating on her.... why? she isn't a feminist... she's an equalist.

 

 

Talk about hating on someone because you fialed to brainwash them.LMFAO


Edited by Volourn, 15 May 2017 - 01:54 PM.


#37
Sarex

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Azdeus, dude that's Sweden, that's the ideal of how things should be.

 

Ok, so lets assume those two wait times (24h and 7y) represent extreme outliers in each direction. Can some of you guys from across the pond give me some more examples of typical wait times for various procedures?

 

It really depends. It's not really as hopeless as Sharp_One has shown, tbh I never heard of someone waiting for any procedure for longer than a year. Maybe if there is only one place to get it in the whole country, but even then... For the usual stuff it goes from a few days to 6 months. For an example it takes a few days to get an appointment with a general practice doctor for an examination (or you can go the same day but you would have a lower priority then those who have an appointment), but it could take up to 6 month to get an ultrasound for you kidneys. All this changes if it's an emergency, ie. you are at an immediate risk of dying, then you don't have to wait of course.


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#38
majestic

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Ok, so lets assume those two wait times (24h and 7y) represent extreme outliers in each direction. Can some of you guys from across the pond give me some more examples of typical wait times for various procedures?

 

 

Ok, so lets assume those two wait times (24h and 7y) represent extreme outliers in each direction. Can some of you guys from across the pond give me some more examples of typical wait times for various procedures?

 

You could poke around the data collected by the OECD.

 

http://www.oecd.org/...iting-times.htm

 

It's comparing waiting times for three specific elective surgical procedures. It's by no means perfect but much better than simply gathering a couple of anecdotes here and there.

 

Doesn't say anything about the quality of emergency procedures though.


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#39
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Ok, so lets assume those two wait times (24h and 7y) represent extreme outliers in each direction. Can some of you guys from across the pond give me some more examples of typical wait times for various procedures?

I'd take the 7 years one with more than a grain of salt. That's definitely an elective wait time, not an urgent one. Either it's a made up anecdote or Sharpie got scammed by the employee andor their doctor, trying to get a private op fee rather than a (lower) public one.

 

For more scientific data. Again, none of those ops are urgent, they're all elective. Urgent stuff gets done, well, urgently eg my dad severed a tendon once and had an operation within an hour of getting to hospital. It's different for carpal tunnel say, which my mother had. A 6 week wait for someone who is retired and doesn't really 'need' the op is pretty good really, if she wanted it immediately she could always have gone private.


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#40
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https://www.washingt...m=.b1e7bb6fb436

"President Trump revealed highly classified information to the Russian foreign minister and ambassador in a White House meeting last week, according to current and former U.S. officials, who said that Trump’s disclosures jeopardized a critical source of intelligence on the Islamic State.
The information Trump relayed had been provided by a U.S. partner through an intelligence-sharing arrangement considered so sensitive that details have been withheld from allies and tightly restricted even within the U.S. government, officials said.
The partner had not given the United States permission to share the material with Russia, and officials said that Trump’s decision to do so risks cooperation from an ally that has access to the inner workings of the Islamic State. After Trump’s meeting, senior White House officials took steps to contain the damage, placing calls to the CIA and National Security Agency.
“This is code-word information,” said a U.S. official familiar with the matter, using terminology that refers to one of the highest classification levels used by American spy agencies. Trump “revealed more information to the Russian ambassador than we have shared with our own allies.”"

Trump seems to go by old saying "keep friends away and enemies closer"


Technically, wouldn't this be Trump team collusion with the Russian government?

But hey, he's POTUS and as such can declassify and reveal whatever Intel he wants.




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