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The best frontman


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#41
scythesong

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Your problem is that you are overthinking this. You should just play the game and let your experience determine your future opinions.

 

Also, PoE's class system is not based on profession, and even D&D tries very hard to shake off that trope except it seems the players don't seem to want to get rid of it.

So in PoE fighters can be sneaky, have a clever disposition and can be intelligent and perceptive. This means that they can be competent spies and thieves instead of just traditional soldiers.

A PoE rogue can have a brutally honest disposition and be athletic/wilderness-savvy instead of sneaky. This means that they can be wilderness guides or traders instead of burglars.

 

In PoE, each class is designed around having different specialties in combat, specialities that will ALWAYS be a part of that class unless you go out of your way to reject them (in which case, it's your loss). These specialties show up as class-specific talents and abilities (eg. spellcasting).

 

Fighters, for example, will always have a tanky element. It's practically intrinsic to the class unless you go out of your way to create a squishy fighter, for whatever reason.

The character creation window  should give you enough info about each class and what they can do so you know what to expect when you choose your class. If you think the information there is not enough though, feel free to ask around here about what unique thing each class brings to the table.


Edited by scythesong, 13 May 2017 - 04:45 PM.

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#42
oaktownbrown

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What would you like to do that you can't bc of PoE's system?

 

 

There's nothing that the class system forbids me to do. But I always get this awkward feeling that what I do with a class can also be done by another. I cannot be unique. There's a lack of proper roles. It's a hybrid... If you do a game with a class system, then stick to it. Don't make wizards experts in disarming traps! (they start with 1 in it) It's rogues' stuff! This way I get the feeling that with 6 fighters I can beat the game just right... as a fighter can scout, beat, disarm, be stealthy, talk, and with proper lore even cast spells..

 

By the way... I'd be more than happy if anyone can prove me I'm wrong and comes out with something unique, for I haven't found anything to date.

 

 

 

You're right that six fighters can beat the game, or six rogues, six wizards, or six whatever. But so can one, though soloing is definitely easier with some classes than others.  You don't NEED a party at all, much less a mixed party.

 

Ppl play with a party because they think it's more fun, not because they have to. And they play with "party X" because they think it's more fun, whether party X is a party of six rangers or a party that tries to use all the companions about equally and tries to make sure that there are different combos throughout the game (i.e., try to make sure that Grieving Mother is in pretty much every possible party composition, same with Pallengina, Durance, Aloth, Sagani, Hiravias, Kana, Eder, Devil, Maneha, and Zahua and try to make the amount of time in the various compositions roughly equal). The latter is how I'm playing PoE because I want to play around with lots of combos rather than maximizing, e.g.,  Maneha's stats and equpment, to play with a certain party composition. I'd rather build characters who work well with lots of combos and doing that forces me to be flexible, adapting to other party member as well as various equipment and foes. But YMMV and probably does.

 

I agree that if you build two characters the same way, they will be able to do pretty much the same things out of combat, regardless of class. E.g., if you max mechanics for a fighter, s/he will be able to disarm traps almost as well as a rogue. The rogue, with +2 in mechanics, will always be somewhat better (assuming that you invest an equal amount of points for each) at it because it will always be cheaper for her/him to get to the next level in mechanics than it will be for the fighter. But you can't max every skill (or even most of them) so a fighter who is good at lore but dabbles in mechanics will never be as good at picking locks as a character who is good at mechanics. So, if I want, my druid can be better at picking locks than using scrolls. That, to me, is one thing that is appealing about a well-made classless system.

 

It sounds like that bothers you. Why do you like a classless system if you think that you have to build characters a certain way?

 

I do wish that I could customize my druid more and decide at the beginning if I'd rather have longer/stronger spiritshift but no/few spells (or maybe only charm beast, talk to beast, etc spells), lots of spells but no/limited spiritshift or, e.g., maybe specialize in healing/buffing spells and get more of those (and stronger spells and fewer elemental spells and CC, etc. or vice-versa). Or maybe that I could learn X number of scrolls at level up (priest, wizard, or druid), kind of like a wizard. I do wish that there was more flexibility because I like a classless system but, to me, the problems with a class system in PoE relate to combat limitations, not role-playing ones.

 

I guess  I don't understand because we seem to like classless systems for different reasons. I like them because of their flexibility but you seem to dislike the flexibility you get with PoE's skills. Would you like it better if the same thing were used in a classless system? If so ,why?


Edited by oaktownbrown, 13 May 2017 - 05:31 PM.

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#43
Slack83er

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The answer is rather easy. The classless system doesn't put a label on me about who I am. I can indeed be a wizard with mechanics, but I'm not defined by the wizard label. I could choose to have just 2 spells and be a fighter and that wouldn't make me a bad mage. Sure in PoE I can choose to be a mage with sword and board but I'll never be a tank because PoE wants me to stick on the mage label=squishy. This way I'll never be unique because who I am is defined by class and not by my own capabilities.

#44
Slack83er

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Il also add, forgive my double post, that role-wise this also forces me to play as a specific class, and you may notice this from the fact that some dialogue options are available only to certain classes. Dialogue should follow my morale and not the fact that I'm a wizard and not a fighter.. for example. So what happens is..I don't feel I got my own character but a character who is on a precise rail, no matter what I do to customise him to my tastes.

Edited by Slack83er, 14 May 2017 - 01:27 AM.


#45
scythesong

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So you're arguing that classes are restrictive because they don't let you play the way you want to play. You want to play a classless system so you can cherry pick the things you want without suffering any drawbacks. I mean, why even bother adding tanky classes if the wizard - the class that specializes in modifying the battlefield itself and which does well as a crowd control specialist/damage dealer/temporary physical combat specialist - can ALSO stand toe-to-toe against dragons without breaking a sweat.

 

Well unfortunately, PoE's system would eat you alive and spit out your remains in molecule-size if you try to implement that kind of system here. The thing is that in PoE many of your enemies reflect your character and thus, are bound by the same mechanics. Both you and your enemies follow similar character creation guidelines and thus share similar basic strengths/weaknesses - your limitations are also their limitations. Such is the balance of PoE.

 

This isn't Skyrim. Skyrim using the PoE system would be like being constantly forced to fight 3 other dovahkins as a matter course at higher difficulties. Sure, you'd be "unique" and you would not be defined by any preset limitations, but the same would also apply to your enemies.

While I guess some people wouldn't mind fighting armies of characters who lack any limitations/weaknesses just as they do, I'm not one of those people. I like a challenge, but masochism is a different thing.

 

PoE does a very good job of giving you dialog options which reflect the type of character you make. Obviously a cleric would be able to comment on faith-related issues, a cipher on issues of the mind and memory, and so on. You are NOT supposed to experience every dialog option in the game.

It would be extremely confusing if a benevolent, passionate character suddenly had the option to murder a fellow party-mate that's only supposed to be available to cruel characters, or for your elf to somehow have firsthand experience about the bitter hardships hearth orlans have to deal with, or for your goody-two-shoes paladin to suddenly intimately know about the rituals practiced by some cult to an evil god.


Edited by scythesong, 14 May 2017 - 02:16 AM.


#46
Slack83er

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Scythe, while what you say is undoubtedly true, I continue to prefer a system that doesn't stick a label on me. If you go just some posts up, you'll see my favorite game ever has been Divinity II. A game that lets you be who you want to be. Sure, you start off by picking some kind of class, but soon discover that your choice doesn't interfere at all with any choice you will make in the future, and that it was just a way to introduce you to the game. PoE wants to make me choose a career, to specialize in just ONE thing, and do it with the drawback that if you want to spread your abilities a little too thin, you'll become some sort of Jack-of-all-trades but utterly MASTER OF NONE AT ALL. I'm not discussing "balance" per se, which is good in fact, I'm just arguing that I (and that's only me, so I admit I'm just a little too picky perhaps) find this class system too restricting for my personal tastes. Imho the best result are achieved as follows:

 

Class System: Every single class is adept at doing specific tasks. Rogues, this way, will be the ONLY ones that will be able to pick locks for example. This method clearly encourages you to build up a party of character that will complete one another. This is the base of the first editions of D&D.

 

Classless system: There's no class. There's concept. You are who you want to be. No special need to look for a group or party as you, and you alone, choose which things you can do, and which you can't. If you don't choose to learn lockpicking, noone will do it for you. 

 

PoE... stands right in the middle of the two, imo. And doesn't excel in neither. You choose a class, but what you do can be accomplished by anyone, thus your choices have no particular weight in the overall big picture of the game. I've seen mages tank, and dwarves being powerful magicians. I'm quite sure this was done with the idea of ultimate freedom in mind, but to me, this is an overall failure.



#47
JerekKruger

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So you're arguing that classes are restrictive because they don't let you play the way you want to play. You want to play a classless system so you can cherry pick the things you want without suffering any drawbacks. I mean, why even bother adding tanky classes if the wizard - the class that specializes in modifying the battlefield itself and which does well as a crowd control specialist/damage dealer/temporary physical combat specialist - can ALSO stand toe-to-toe against dragons without breaking a sweat.

 

Classless systems don't allow you to do everything, at least not the good ones. A level cap ensures that you have limited points to spend so you still have to make compromises. The point is that in a classless system you get to decide what those compromises are, rather than being restricted by a preexisting class.

 

There are pros and cons to both class based and classless systems, but it's not at all accurate to claim people who prefer classless simply want have what they want without drawbacks.



#48
Belfaldurnik

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Il also add, forgive my double post, that role-wise this also forces me to play as a specific class, and you may notice this from the fact that some dialogue options are available only to certain classes. Dialogue should follow my morale and not the fact that I'm a wizard and not a fighter.. for example.

 

That's not true, and since you've not given a rationale I cannot agree with it at all. In the White March, for example, related to the Pargrunen Dwarves you get special talk options if you're a Mountain Dwarf. You may get the same or similar options only with sufficiently high Lore skill. In other cases, people may approach you in special ways, if you're a Death Godlike, and they would do so based on your appearance alone. During conversation, there may be a variety of stat checks, but the game cannot offer an infinite number of options. And it can happen, that different dialogue paths still lead to the same result. If an escaped Orlan slave, who's got problems with slave hunters, trusts you because you're an Orlan, too, it would be wrong to hope for the same reaction, if being a Death Godlike with bad reputation or Cruel 4 disposition rank. Similarly, if you've supported one of the opposing factions in the city of Defiance Bay, the other factions will no longer work with you, and while in the real world you may find ways to renegotiate that, the game only offers a finite number of role-playing paths.

 

You seem to be in search of the holy grail of a single main character that won't miss anything at all. That won't work.


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#49
Slack83er

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Belf, you haven't caught the meaning of my quoted post. First and foremost there's nothing wrong in wanting to get the most out of an experience. That doesn't mean I'm searching for the grail, but only that I want to interpret a character who is free to be who he wants. Nothing wrong in getting special options if you're a particular race such as a godlike. They're somewhat exotic and feared. But I'll give you an example of what I don't like. Stereotyped classes. Let's just think at Aufra, Calisca's sister. You get the option of helping her out in a particular way if you're a paladin. Why can't I act with chivalry even if I'm a rogue? Yes yes, I can help her nonetheless, but the dialogue is different. This is what I don't like. A proper rpg should give you the possibility of different attitudes...like angry, chivalrous, covetous or the like. (Dragon age comes to mind) But here the game states that if you're not a paladin you can't be chivalrous. That's sticking a label on a character. So, to sum it up, you are talking about races, which is something I can agree with you on. I'm talking about classes. The only thing that defines who you are, or what you do in this game.



#50
scythesong

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Actually you can act Benevolent/Passionate around Aufria, though of course you need to establish such dispositions beforehand for a non-paladin. Establishing disposition is the tricky part since there are disposition-increasing dialog options you may not want to take anyway (disposition-based dialog options can be either good or bad, depending on the situation) but it gets a lot easier since these dialog options are practically everywhere.

And as far as "evil" paladins are concerned, I think they get a special "make sure you pay me" or "just suck it" dialog option for quests like this. PoE goes the extra mile a bit when it comes to paladin orders by establishing precedents (like the cruel Bleak Walkers, the enterprising Goldpact Knights, and the altruistic Kind Wayfarers).

Edited by scythesong, 14 May 2017 - 09:06 AM.


#51
Slack83er

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...though of course you need to establish such dispositions beforehand for a non-paladin.

Bingo.

 

Anyway... I realize that the game is just this way, and my rantings won't change it.. So if a kind soul of you would help me build a character (preferably unique enough) to enjoy this game, you'll have my eternal gratitude ;)



#52
smjjames

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...though of course you need to establish such dispositions beforehand for a non-paladin.

Bingo.

 

Anyway... I realize that the game is just this way, and my rantings won't change it.. So if a kind soul of you would help me build a character (preferably unique enough) to enjoy this game, you'll have my eternal gratitude ;)

 

All anybody can do is point you to the stickied list of builds or you just look around in this section. There is no single absolute best way to build a character. Due to the way the game is designed, there are many ways that are quite successful. The only person that can build a character that you enjoy is you, though people can help if you set some things that you want in the character.

 

As for trying to do something that covers all possibilities at once, there is literally no way to do that without using console commands.

 

Sounds like the system in PoE2 is going to be more flexible, but it's certainly going to be a different system in there.



#53
Slack83er

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Well..I know what I would like.
Main points are:
Very speedy-attacking character.
General feel of a leader.. not necessarily a paladin.
Excellent talking skills.
Better if it's also quite tanky. Either deflecting or armored..
Generally oriented towards good alignment.
Non casting class.
And finally.. as you may have understood, I like unusual combinations.. so yes to strange characters like godlikes for example.

Edited by Slack83er, 14 May 2017 - 11:37 AM.


#54
smjjames

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Well..I know what I would like.
Main points are:
Very speedy-attacking character.
Excellent talking skills.
Better if it's also quite tanky. Either deflecting or armored..
Generally oriented towards good alignment.
Non casting class.
And finally.. add you may have understood, I like unusual combinations.. so yes to strange characters like godlikes for example.

 

Speedy attacking: Well, theres a few classes which have abilities that boost attack speed or dual wield the fast speed weapons.

 

excellent talking skills: You're going to have to define this because charisma isn't a thing.

 

also quite tanky: Not sure if you can have speedy attacking while tanky at the same time, I mean there's going to be more of a middle ground due to armor penalty. Theres people who understand character building better than I do who could answer that question.

 

non-casting: The 'traidtional' casting classes are druid, wizard, priest, and chanters (PoEs version of bards). While ciphers are open to interpretation of 'casting class'. However, if you go by the strict definition, that kind of restricts you to maybe rogue, barbarian, and monk (depending on whether you interpret 'the long pain' as casting magic or not). Rangers have one magic ability that seems like it should be a druid ability. Fighers do have two or three things that affect allies, but I don't know if you'd call that 'casting' or not. Paladins meanwhile, have lay on hands and a bunch of ally affecting AoEs.


Edited by smjjames, 14 May 2017 - 12:14 PM.


#55
Slack83er

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Speedy attacking: Well, theres a few classes which have abilities that boost attack speed or dual wield the fast speed weapons.

 

excellent talking skills: You're going to have to define this because charisma isn't a thing.

 

also quite tanky: Not sure if you can have speedy attacking while tanky at the same time, I mean there's going to be more of a middle ground. Theres people who understand character building better than I do who could answer that question.

 

non-casting: The 'traidtional' casting classes are druid, wizard, priest, and chanters (PoEs version of bards). While ciphers are open to interpretation of 'casting class'. However, if you go by the strict definition, that kind of restricts you to maybe rogue, barbarian, and monk (depending on whether you interpret 'the long pain' as casting magic or not). Rangers have one magic ability that seems like it should be a druid ability. Fighers do have two or three things that affect allies, but I don't know if you'd call that 'casting' or not. Paladins meanwhile, have lay on hands and a bunch of ally affecting AoEs.

 

So, one at a time:

 

Dual wielding is an option.

Charisma doesn't exist, I know. Let's just say I'd like at least 2 stats which improve talking, the first being Res.

I know I can't be extra speedy while tanking. Let's just say the 2 weapons can really help mitigate the armor penalty, and perhaps a high dexterity also helps..

For "non casting" I mean the traditional casting classes, those whose only increasing abilities each level are new spells. Everything else is ok.



#56
Blades of Vanatar

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Just go with a high Might/Int Hearth Orlan Fighter. He will heal quickly with his Recovery abilities, desk decent damage, tank and his high Int gives you good talking skill. Plus H Orlans get bonus for attacking the same enemy as his allies. Go dual wield for your speed need. I would dual wield spear with another Peasant weapon so you can use Cladhiliath. It is a unique spear that you can upgrade in many different ways. It's probably my favorite weapon in the whole game. Pair it with a hatchet like Hearth's Harvest. You can do this and still wear heavy armor. Add either Sanguine Plate or the cross class Barb Frenzy talent for even more speed. Then take two weapon style and durganize at the Battery. Bam!

#57
Slack83er

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Interesting... a tank that exploits the fact that another fighter is doing damage. I like it. What shall I give apart from might and intelligence? Does he need deflection from Res? Constitution?

#58
Belfaldurnik

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Belf, you haven't caught the meaning of my quoted post.

 
Don't be so sure about that. I could have truncated the quote even further to "Dialogue should follow my morale" and reply to that. It doesn't make a difference. There are various dialogue options depending on class, race, cultural background, reputation, disposition rank, attributes, chosen god, paladin order, possibly not limited to those.

 

There are only few class-specific dialogue options in the game. A very few for Fighters. A few more for Ciphers, because being a Cipher has implications. And there's nothing wrong with that, if these are options for you, the PLAYER. If you want to discuss what's bad about class-specific dialogue options, let's discuss specific examples.
 

Let's just think at Aufra, Calisca's sister. You get the option of helping her out in a particular way if you're a paladin. Why can't I act with chivalry even if I'm a rogue? Yes yes, I can help her nonetheless, but the dialogue is different. This is what I don't like. A proper rpg should give you the possibility of different attitudes...like angry, chivalrous, covetous or the like. (Dragon age comes to mind) But here the game states that if you're not a paladin you can't be chivalrous. That's sticking a label on a character. So, to sum it up, you are talking about races, which is something I can agree with you on. I'm talking about classes. The only thing that defines who you are, or what you do in this game.

 
That's much too vague for me. I know that quest. I've done it dozens of times with various classes. What exactly is offered if you're a Paladin? And for which Paladin order is it?
 
That dialogue gives you plenty of options, regardless of your class. There is no reason to be "angry", and "angry" is not one of the disposition ranks the game offers, but certainly there are the "Cruel/Aggressive" options during this side-quest, too. It's offered regardless of class.
 

Charisma doesn't exist, I know. Let's just say I'd like at least 2 stats which improve talking, the first being Res.

 
With RES 20 you can cover a lot, not limited to benevolent options and peaceful resolution of conflicts. It also covers some deceptive choices. High INT and high PER lead to some options, too.
 

I know I can't be extra speedy while tanking.

 

Fighters and Monks certainly can do it. Cannot say it often enough, trying to build an unhittable heavy armored meat-shield, will make that character more of a hindrance.


Edited by Belfaldurnik, 14 May 2017 - 01:35 PM.


#59
Slack83er

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So you agree with the character idea blades gave me before?

#60
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Well, you are still afraid of gaining personal hands on experience. There must be some reason that explains why. You refer to Aufra, an early side-quest, which means you know a tiny bit of the game, but it still looks like you're hoping for one specific "build" to finish the game with once and then be done with it. What a pity!

 

You're also not sure yet which difficulty level to turn on, but the difficulty mode may influence your build/party requirements.

 

About the idea from "Blades of Vanatar": There are tons of ways how to play the game and be successful and have fun, too. The bonus Hearth Orlans get converts some hits into crits, so you would benefit from using a weapon that adds something for crits. And if aiming at doing crits in general, you may want to run with high PER and use one single-handed weapon only for the +12 Accuracy bonus. Something I've pointed out in Steam's PoE forum often, Fighters are durable enough as to survive even with reduced CON/RES due to regeneration, very high base Deflection and various options to increase Deflection beyond the per level bonus. They don't even need high MIG, if you give them a Sabre (and other Ruffian weapons as fallbacks) or some two-hander. There are enough options to increase MIG via items. And high INT indeed can be really nice for duration of knock-down and several cross-class talents. Extra Knock-down and Charge are among my favorite Fighter talents. And one thing for sure, I favor quick warriors with high DEX.


Edited by Belfaldurnik, 14 May 2017 - 02:10 PM.





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