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The best frontman


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#21
Slack83er

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What about the cipher? What does he excel into? Can he play frontman.

If by frontman, you mean tank, then sure, melee ciphers are totally doable.


No. Tank is the least of the things that I care for. I have Edér in that role, Kana even. I care for dialogue options, trap detecting, scouting.. Try to imagine you're sitting at a table playing your favourite rpg. Now the group will elect someone who will be ahead during exploration, someone who can be the mouth of the group, and of course someone that can even hold his own if in combat. This doesn't necessarily mean tank. This is what I'm asking for. I know the player character is the one who speaks, but I want to do it properly and with many options.

Edited by Slack83er, 13 May 2017 - 12:48 AM.


#22
smjjames

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Since the skills are completely independent of character class and everything else, the scout and trap handler can be anybody. I mentioned earlier that I was using Aloth as the trap defuser and lockpicker.



#23
Belfaldurnik

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There is no "leader" position. Your main character will be the talker, regardless of the position within the party. Same for scripted interactions. In a few cases you can select companions in scripted interactions.

 

The only other important thing with regard to party formation is that the game sometimes does forced encounters, turning off Stealth and moving all companions to a fixed place close to enemies. Making the tanks the left-most characters at the bottom of the HUD can be helpful then.



#24
JerekKruger

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No. Tank is the least of the things that I care for. I have Edér in that role, Kana even. I care for dialogue options, trap detecting, scouting.. 

 

Well, as mentioned dialogue options are always handled by the main character: it doesn't matter if a dialogue is initiated by a companion who's scouting ahead, which options are available will be determined by the attributes, background and class of the main character. As for trap detection, that can be done by anyone since skills can be selected by any class. Sure Rogues can start with the highest mechanics but any character dedicated to the job of trap detection will be fine. Similarly for the stealth skill.

 

Try to imagine you're sitting at a table playing your favourite rpg. Now the group will elect someone who will be ahead during exploration, someone who can be the mouth of the group, and of course someone that can even hold his own if in combat. This doesn't necessarily mean tank. This is what I'm asking for. I know the player character is the one who speaks, but I want to do it properly and with many options.

 

What class you use for this (if you do this at all) is dependent on the game you're playing, because the rules of the game you're playing determine which character is best suited to this role. In Pillars there is very little difference between classes when it comes to fulfilling this role, so you can use whatever class you want. If you, for role-play reasons, want to use a class you think fits this role well (rogues, ranges etc.) that's fine, but that's completely a question of personal preference and other people can't really help you out.

 

Personally I don't really have a character doing this. I move my whole party as a group, making sure the person with the highest mechanics is near the front, and occasionally use Sagani (the only character I ever invest points into stealth with) to scout an encounter more carefully before engaging.


Edited by JerekKruger, 13 May 2017 - 06:47 AM.


#25
smjjames

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Or even have the scout be someone who can dart away quickly in case combat starts while scouting. Also useful when trying to kite some enemies out of a group. The rules in PoE regarding scouting, etc. are a whole lot looser than a tabletop RPG, so, you just have to realize that you have way more options than you would for a tabletop RPG.

 

If you want to have a wizard be your trap defuser guy or your scout, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from doing so.

 

As for dialogue options, yes, right now, the only exceptions to your character being the one who talks are some quest related interactions and various interjections/commentary. However, from what I've heard for PoE2, that might change some since there will be more interactions between companions. I imagine it might be handled something like the way it was in Tyranny.



#26
Slack83er

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Ok. Maybe I was lacking PoE lore then. I couldn't see a rude and uneducated barbarian be the mouth of the group. I'm too old-school for that. Bards, Paladins, Fighters even...they do the talk. Rogues, Bards, Rangers...they do the scouting.. 

So..this means that in this game the only thing that tells a class apart from the other is the abilities and mechanics??

Ow...

 

Now I'm very confused about what to do.. No fun in being always on the front kicking arses... hit hit hit...



#27
Belfaldurnik

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I couldn't see a rude and uneducated barbarian be the mouth of the group. I'm too old-school for that. Bards, Paladins, Fighters even...they do the talk.

 
Uhm, what would you do, if you played a party of six Barbarians? :biggrin:
 
In this game, a Paladin should follow the order's favored behavior, which is aggressive/cruel for the Bleak Walkers. Note that you don't lose side-quests or rewards if going that path. Quite the opposite. You gain various opportunities. It's good choice for other classes, too.
 

Rogues, Bards, Rangers...they do the scouting.. 
So..this means that in this game the only thing that tells a class apart from the other is the abilities and mechanics??

 

Class-specific talents, base stats (Health, Endurance, Deflection, Accuracy) and skill bonuses.


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#28
Slack83er

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Uhm, what would you do, if you played a party of six Barbarians? :biggrin:

 
In this game, a Paladin should follow the order's favored behavior, which is aggressive/cruel for the Bleak Walkers. Note that you don't lose side-quests or rewards if going that path. Quite the opposite. You gain various opportunities. It's good choice for other classes, too.

Six barbarians? It's a horde, not a party! ;) (please note I play a barbarian in tabletop, lol)

 

I know about the paladins' particular code of conduct, but I believe it's very restrictive for the advantages it gives you.. You know my real dream? Play a sort of darin buccaneer/pirate. Two weapons or rapier+buckler. That'd be fun and cool!



#29
JerekKruger

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You know my real dream? Play a sort of darin buccaneer/pirate. Two weapons or rapier+buckler. That'd be fun and cool!

 

Rogue, Cipher, Fighter or, perhaps*, Monk could all be built to do this I'd say.

 

*I say perhaps not because they can't, but I realise some people dislike playing Monks in anything other than the Shaolin style unarmed Asian martial artist.



#30
Slack83er

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You know... I agree with you, but I find it damn difficult to create the character and go on with it for more than a bit. I always find it very annoying to just punch enemies' faces. This is the reason I look for scouts/vanguards etc. You roam maps just to kill encounters... maybe I'm doing something wrong..

 

That said... Aumaua for a pirate? What does he need? Dex/Mig? Res? 

There's also a specific bg that says I'm a sea raider...



#31
JerekKruger

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I couldn't see a rude and uneducated barbarian be the mouth of the group. 

 

Well of course, but there's nothing saying Barbarians have to be rude or uneducated.

 

I'm too old-school for that. Bards, Paladins, Fighters even...they do the talk. Rogues, Bards, Rangers...they do the scouting.. 

 

I think you're typecasting. You're assuming that every example of a given class has to be identical to the prototypical member of that class. I suspect that this is (one of) the reasons a lot of people dislike class based systems: they stifle role-playing in a lot of people, forcing them to adopt narrow tropes.

 

For example take the Bard. How many excellent musicians have been utter arseholes? A lot. I think a musician is well represented as a Bard, yet this type would be pretty terrible as a face for the party.


Edited by JerekKruger, 13 May 2017 - 09:57 AM.


#32
Slack83er

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I suspect that this is (one of) the reasons a lot of people dislike class based systems: they stifle role-playing in a lot of people, forcing them to adopt narrow tropes.

This is absolutely true. I find it very difficult to follow a precise and narrow route while interpreting my character. For me, a monk is a monk. A fighter is a fighter. In fact, while playing my first tabletop rpgs, I used to multiclass like hell, trying to adhere as much as I could to what I had in mind. Wanna know my favourite Pc game ever? Divinity II. Classless system.



#33
Slack83er

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I also want to add a personal feeling: this game is awesome but animations are really crappy. There's no satisfaction at all in seeing you character in combat as it kinda seems a wood statue swinging a toothpick. The only exceptions are mages, who chant something and cast some visual spells..and monks that actually move the hands according to some kind of logical pattern. But then again.. while playing a monk I felt like I'm... opening my way with fists and all, no involvement in what happens in the game... Maybe ciphers are more into lore, and orlans too but... Well...dunno... I'm kinda baffled..



#34
smjjames

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You know... I agree with you, but I find it damn difficult to create the character and go on with it for more than a bit. I always find it very annoying to just punch enemies' faces. This is the reason I look for scouts/vanguards etc. You roam maps just to kill encounters... maybe I'm doing something wrong..

 

That said... Aumaua for a pirate? What does he need? Dex/Mig? Res? 

There's also a specific bg that says I'm a sea raider...

 

*points slack83er to the rogueish monk concept build*. That one btw, is supposed to have a piratey background (and is also Aumaua), but fights in a close quarters combat style. So, the question should be 'how do you want your pirate to fight?'. I think you should just set it up the way you feel is right for the character you're doing.



#35
Slack83er

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The concept is fine...but this character won't talk at all. No per, int or res... Just standard phrases...

Moreover, if you read what I said before (that is my own opinion of course, no universal law) I don't correctly understand how a monk could ever be a raider... imo a monk is a monk.



#36
oaktownbrown

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Here are the dialog checks in 1.x. It doesn't count the White March but maybe someone will have those.

 

Barbarian: 2
Chanter: 1
Cipher: 12
Druid: 1
Fighter: 4
Monk: 2
Paladin: 1 + Order
Priest: 6 (3 unique - without equivalent "Clergyman" background check) + Deity
Ranger: 2
Rogue: 2
Wizard: 3

Kind Wayfarers: 7
Bleak Walkers: 6
Shieldbearers: 3
Goldpact: 2
Darcozzi: 3

Berath: 3
Skaen: 7
Magran: 5
Wael: 5
Eothas: 7

Aristocrat: 8
Artist: 4
Clergyman: 7 (4 unique)
Colonist: 9
Dissident: 6
Drifter: 4
Explorer: 9
Hunter: 10
Laborer: 8
Mercenary: 8
Merchant: 11
Mystic: 5
Philosopher: 11
Raider: 11
Scholar: 13
Scientist: 6
Slave: 7

Aedyr: 12 (5 of them with Aloth)
Deadfire: 9
Ixamitl Plains: 1
Old Vailia: 4
Rauatai: 9 (8 with Kana)
The Living Lands: 9
White That Wends: 14

Aumaua: 7
Coastal Aumaua: 1

Dwarf: 0
Boreal Dwarf: 1

Elf: 1
Snow Elf: 7 (3 with Glaswal)

Godlike: 10
Fire Godlike: 4
Nature Godlike: 2
Moon Godlike: 2
Death Godlike: 3

Human: 1

Orlan: 14 (5 with Captain Aldmar)
Hearth Orlan: 1
Wild Orlan: 1

Male: 7
Female: 12

First number shows amount of conversations where the stat is checked, numbers in brackets include multiple checks per conversation (can be slightly inaccurate):

Might: 38 (42)
Constitution: 12 (12)
Dexterity: 19 (21)
Perception: 42 (47)
Intellect: 40 (55)
Resolve: 55 (81)

Stealth: 4 (5)
Athletics: 22 (30+) (only checked once outside of text adventures, by the Glanfathan Leader)
Lore: 18 (25)
Mechanics: 4 (7)
Survival: 14 (16)

Highest amount checked:

Stealth: 6 (Falanroed/Maw)
Athletics: ? (possibly 11 on Burial Isle)
Lore: 10 (lots)
Mechanics: 8 (Durance)
Survival: 12 (Sagani)

Disposition checks:

Aggressive 39
Benevolent 40
Clever 27
Cruel 52
Deceptive 30
Diplomatic 25
Honest 26
Passionate 33
Rational 30
Stoic 28

Highest unlocks are for Rank 3; Rank 4 is only used to lock options.

 

http://www.rpgcodex....e-checks.98722/

 

 

So it looks like a Priest or Cipher would be the best class for dialog. For races, you'd want to pick one that unlocks options and gives high resolve and either intelligence, perception, or might. Orlans and Humans give +1 to resolve and either perception or might. Orlans also unlocks some conversation options (and sometimes innskeepers, guards, and others have things to say to you because you're an Orlan). I think it's a good race to play.

 

Aedyr and Ixamitl Plains give +1 to resolve too. Philosopher is a good background for unlocking conversation; you need to be from Ixamitl Plains to choose a philosopher background. Downside is that it gives you +2 to Lore, not Mechanics, which you need for traps. Lore is good for unlocking options in conversations, though, and sometimes letting you talk your way out of a fight. Drifter is a good background bc it gives +1 to Mechanics and +1 to Stealth. It may not fit in with your fairly rigid concepts about characters, though. Laborer, merchant, and scientist also give +1 to Mechanics.

 

As others have said, you won't be able to unlock all the conversation options because many of them are tied to reputation and if you pick, e.g., the benevolent option, you aren't going to be able to pick the aggressive or rational one there. You can have both benevolent and aggressive reputations but it's hard to have high scores in more than a few, which you'd need (and need them early) to unlock all the conversation options.

 

As others have said, you can use your companions to unlock options in the CYOAs, which is nice, but not in the conversations. However, you can buff your stats to some degree by using potions, food, resting bonuses, equipment, etc. Here is a thread:  https://forums.obsid...ialogue-checks/


Edited by oaktownbrown, 13 May 2017 - 12:38 PM.

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#37
Slack83er

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Thank you.

But despite all of this...my problem remains: I can't really find the exact role I'm looking for. I don't like being confined to a precise class but this game won't let me create something unique... I don't really know how to better explain this... I have an idea in mind...but it's vague... I only know I want to be talkative and scouty... but I want to be a leader for the party.. 

do something special...



#38
scythesong

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That's a bit ironic since the game allows you to play pretty much however you want, the class system helps bring order to the chaos by giving you a "default" specialty which you can work on subverting if you really want to.

#39
oaktownbrown

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Thank you.

But despite all of this...my problem remains: I can't really find the exact role I'm looking for. I don't like being confined to a precise class but this game won't let me create something unique... I don't really know how to better explain this... I have an idea in mind...but it's vague... I only know I want to be talkative and scouty... but I want to be a leader for the party.. 

do something special...

 

I'm not following because I don't understand how the classes restrict your ability to be a leader, talk, or scout. They give starting bonuses to skills (e.g., stealth) and determine what talents you can take but not much else (except for combat things like starting deflection and accuracy and what you can do in combat). Rogues and Ciphers are good because they both give a starting bonus to both stealth and mechanics (rogue gets +2 to mechanics) but you can have any player be a scout or trap monkey. I used Durance because mechanics (traps) makes his seal spells stronger.

 

Here is a list of classes and backgrounds that give bonuses to stealth:  http://pillarsofeter...dia.com/Stealth

 

Mechanics: http://pillarsofeter...a.com/Mechanics

 

I like classless systems too but I don't feel restricted with respect to making someone who is a leader, good in conversations, good at stealth, or good at traps because of PoE's class system. (Parenthetically, IMO you don't need a character to have a particularly high stealth in order to make a good scout but YMMV.) I feel like it's a much bigger restriction in combat. What would you like to do that you can't bc of PoE's system?



#40
Slack83er

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What would you like to do that you can't bc of PoE's system?

 

 

There's nothing that the class system forbids me to do. But I always get this awkward feeling that what I do with a class can also be done by another. I cannot be unique. There's a lack of proper roles. It's a hybrid... If you do a game with a class system, then stick to it. Don't make wizards experts in disarming traps! (they start with 1 in it) It's rogues' stuff! This way I get the feeling that with 6 fighters I can beat the game just right... as a fighter can scout, beat, disarm, be stealthy, talk, and with proper lore even cast spells..

 

By the way... I'd be more than happy if anyone can prove me I'm wrong and comes out with something unique, for I haven't found anything to date.






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