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Will warriors be able to kill things now?


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#61
MortyTheGobbo

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Don't forget enemy wizards blatantly cheating by having multiple contingencies and spell triggers.



#62
MortyTheGobbo

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Double post, but we have some insight on what will make Fighters stand out in Deadfire, at least at the current stage.


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#63
takamorisan

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I managed to build Eder as an offensive tank, he killed a lot stuff with his charges and it was set on Path of the Damned difficulty.



#64
ozymandiasza

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From memory, they were a bit underpowered.



#65
Gromnir

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From memory, they were a bit underpowered.

opposite were the more obvious problem.  at release all tanks were overpowered.  it were too easy to load perception and resolve so as to create nigh invulnerable tanks. weren't a fighter problem so much as an attribute problem.  in fact, while fighters were the most resilient tanks, their supremacy were largely wasted. why play a fighter-tank when you could go the paladin or chanter route and be highly effective at tanking while also providing useful support abilities?  alternative: monk-tanks could dish out serious pain. is not that fighter tanks were less capable than other classes.  opposite were true as far as pure tanking.  however,  the fighter's overkill defense were wasted. 'course by the time the last expansion were released, fighters were back to channeling 2e d&d ghosts.  a post wm poe fighter could tank AND dps with high effectiveness. why play a rogue when a far less squishy fighter offered similar melee dps potential w/o the need to apply debilitating status effects to foes?  

 

fighters in poe have never been underpowered.  while poe fighters initially were not what ie game fans expected, the most resilient tanky class offered far more potential active abilities than any pre tob ie game fighter. even so, compared to other classes, the poe fighter were intentional low-maintenance which could be perceived as dull.  

 

HA! Good Fun!


Edited by Gromnir, 19 June 2017 - 09:38 AM.

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#66
smjjames

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A question that someone asked on Josh's tumbler relating to tanking and the taunt mechanic that is certainly relevant to this thread: https://jesawyer.tum...nk-in-the-party It's not much, but it is insight into how he feels about taunt mechanics.


Edited by smjjames, 20 June 2017 - 07:54 AM.


#67
MaxQuest

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While I don’t think taunts are dumb, they feel a little out of place in a game inspired by A/D&D mechanics.

Tbh, I felt that taunts are a bit weird even in games like WoW and Rift. When you are in battleground (or warfront) a player will (unless specific circumstances) prioritize targets with higher DPS/TTK and Healing/TTK (or EHP if you will). Why should NPCs act different?
It's the task for CC and Supports to keep enemies at bay, away from specialized healers and glass cannons.
Sure frontliners could attract more attention at the start of the battle (first few seconds, before engagement), but it would indeed be strange if "an enemy would stop murdering Aloth because Edér whistled at them". On the other hand if Eder would have confuse/charm/paralyze... or would charge and knockdown, it would be another story.

Edited by MaxQuest, 20 June 2017 - 08:32 AM.

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#68
Katarack21

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Taunt exists to make the "tank" party role an active role, and to ensure that said party role has a consistent role to play. Otherwise, as you said, the tanks role--the guy who can take the hits--has no "reason" to be actually useful if logic is applied to the NPC's decisions--they'd just ignore the tank while taking down everybody else, then concentrate on him afterwards (exactly like I would do to an enemy party).

"Taunt" is an example of a skill that exists as a meta-skill. It's not something that makes sense inside the world, any more than stealth revealing hidden treasures or being unable to dual-wield wands.


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#69
anameforobsidian

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Let's not forget that the use of Taunt in a game led to the worst line I have ever read.  From an RA Salvatore book:

 

"Your mother's an ore-sucking harlot.  The enraged orc shifted targets and charged the Dwarf."

 

 

A better system would have front-liners trip, stab, or grapple people who tried to run past them.  That's what engagement was supposed to model.  Then again, I'd like to see a pillars style system with a 12 man party.  


Edited by anameforobsidian, 20 June 2017 - 10:40 AM.


#70
Katarack21

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In all fairness, you shouldn't really use R.A. Salvatore to model anything *except* crap writing.



#71
injurai

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Whenever I see terrible writing I always wonder why I'm not making money trying my own hand.



#72
Katarack21

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If I was this age in the 80's, I would. TOR fantasy was the golden age of **** writers.



#73
MortyTheGobbo

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Taunting is a way to compensate for AI limitations. Ideally, a tank tanks by being too dangerous to ignore and punishing you for going straight for the squishier targets. But that doesn't work too well with AI-controlled enemies, as opposed to real players.

 

I'm glad Deadfire continues to pursue different ways of doing it, though.



#74
Judicator

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Well, I made a fighter and he's doing pretty good. I guess the updates did change some things.



#75
Teslacrashed

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Or will dudes in armor just act as MMO-style meatshields again, while the glass cannons kill off the enemies?

You realize that in all roleplaying games, characters like the "Fighter" or "warrior" are suppose to be the damage sponges for the rest of the party?

That's why fighters get the highest hit points per level, all the armor, etc. Yes some let you alter it to varying degrees to do more damage and less tanking, but ultimately it's always fell on rogues or other classes to be the high damage dealers. 



#76
Boeroer

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That's why fighters get the highest hit points per level, all the armor, etc.


Well, in PoE they don't.

#77
Teslacrashed

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That's why fighters get the highest hit points per level, all the armor, etc.


Well, in PoE they don't.

 

Uh, Fighters get the highest starting base deflection of any class, period, with 30. They get higher Endurance (only Monks and Barbarians have higher) and Hit Points (only Barbarians in this category) per level than most classes. They get an ability to constantly regenerate health. They have a number of ability that taunt monsters, increase the amount of creatures they can be engaged with.

With very few and small exceptions, fighters are still in the top category of defensive specialist. They are mechanically intended to be tanks, as it's been in most games, especially those that PoE draws inspiration from, like Dungeons and Dragons.

 


Edited by Teslacrashed, 29 June 2017 - 12:32 PM.


#78
Teslacrashed

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Also don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind a game with a "spell caster" tank, I don't think game devs are beholden to making armor and sword and board wearing tanks, but it very much is the case in PoE and likely PoE2.



#79
Boeroer

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You said that fighters get the highest hit points per level and all the armor. I said they don't in PoE. My statement was absolutely correct. Don't know what else there is to say.

#80
Teslacrashed

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You said that fighters get the highest hit points per level and all the armor. I said they don't in PoE. My statement was absolutely correct. Don't know what else there is to say.

Well that statement was about the general state of "warriors/fighters" in RPGs, not PoE specifically, but yes you were technically correct about hit points had I been making that argument.

Meanwhile, it still stands that as per design of PoE, Fighters are meant to be tanks and off-tanks, not high damage dealers.






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