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Will warriors be able to kill things now?


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#21
Leferd

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Yep.

 

giphy.gif


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#22
AndreaColombo

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There's no such thing. If you combine tank and damage dealer (BTW thank You for saying 'damage dealer' and not 'DPS') you are back to regular everyday normal standard warrior.


I think he meant, "if you don't build all your damage-dealers as MMO-style glass cannons", something that in PoE is entirely possible.
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#23
MaxQuest

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Will warriors be able to kill things now?

It's not that the fighters can't kill things. They can.
It's the opportunity cost and being outshined by another class that can do their stuff maybe even a little bit worse, but while also doing something extra.
For example:
- a tank fighter can be substituted by a tank paladin. Which will also provide extra buffs and healing.
- while a dps fighter can be substituted by barbarian, monk, dragon-thrashed chanter and depending on composition: melee cipher. And unless fighter spams scrolls, the substitutions will actually be more optimal as they either have higher burst, or can provide extra healing via shod-in-faith boots (coupled with high hp/low def), can buff or cc.

Imho, a fighter needs something that would also benefit his team. Some kind of rally aoe buff, inspire resolve, or ability to rush to an enemy that has engaged one of your squishies and glance 1-2 of their attacks. 
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#24
MortyTheGobbo

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Fighters are in an awkward spot due to the classes' D&D legacy, I think. They had to be the "generic" fighting class that didn't have anything too special about it, except for "reliability". Hopefully Deadfire will change that. I don't think making them the designated tank class is the way to go, but then again, there's always multiclassing. Or just playing a rogue. In Pillars they have very little of the "thief" baggage that usually plagues the class.

 

I feel like control effects are a fighter niche that could set them apart. Knockdowns, pushing, pulling, redirecting attacks to themselves, etc. We'll see if Deadfire goes that route.



#25
smjjames

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Yeah, in PoE, rogues are generally the 'dirty fighters', sort of the close quarters urban cousin of fighters.


Edited by smjjames, 03 May 2017 - 06:33 AM.


#26
Mygaffer

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Or will dudes in armor just act as MMO-style meatshields again, while the glass cannons kill off the enemies?

You can easily build a fighter do to a ton of damage. If you picked all the defensive abilities and rock a large shield don't be mad when your fighter doesn't do much damage.



#27
injurai

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Or build a DPS front-line and stack your backline with buffers/debuffers/medics/cc.

 

Pillars is one of the most flexible rpg systems I've played, you just have to learn it and plan your builds out.

 

Looks like things are shaping up to be even more flexible and well communicated in deadfire.



#28
Katarack21

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It's not actually particularly flexible. You *have* to have some degree of hybrid DPS/Tank up front and hybrid DPS/CC or DPS/Healing in the back. That's the only set up that works, period. You literally can *not* go with pure builds in either direction; you have to have hybrids of either type in both spots.


Edited by Katarack21, 04 May 2017 - 03:46 PM.


#29
Gromnir

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Or will dudes in armor just act as MMO-style meatshields again, while the glass cannons kill off the enemies?

as has been noted already, such were not the case for poe, particular following the release o' the expansions.  is too bad too. poe has classes, which is an inherent flaw, but obsidian did an admirable job o' making the most o' an otherwise bad starting point.  to create so many classes, each with a unique role, is kinda impressive.  unfortunately, as obsidian added levels and responded to player demands, the class roles became blurred.  fighters in poe were never intended to fill the same roles as ie game fighters.  the poe fighter were 'posed to be a low-maintenance "tank."  

 

http://forums.obsidi...rbarians/page-1

 

"Overall, fighters are designed to be low-maintenance, reliable, and long-lived even in marathon battles."

 

there were literal dozens o' folks applauding the announced roles for the frontliners, with one exception: karakov. he were the only guy who criticized the fighter as being described a bit like a vanilla mmo tank.  everybody else posting seemed to agree the limited role o' the poe fighter, which would be much different from an ie game fighter, were a good thing.

 

'course once the beta started, folks feigned surprise

 

http://forums.obsidi... rogues boring

 

josh again attempted to clarify the fighter role in poe

 

http://forums.obsidi...ring/?p=1507492

 

sadly, in response to community pressure, classes such as the paladin and fighter were... altered.  by the time o' white march 2, the poe fighter were once again capable o' dishing out serious hurt while simultaneous able to withstand direct hits from a trebuchet.  the expanding o' roles, while welcomed by the community, were a mistake.  why play a rogue when a fighter could do similar dps?

 

in any event, while is unlikely to happen, we would much prefer the fighter, and other classes, be retooled so they more close correspond to the original roles for which they were assigned.  poe2 developers should improve the fighter by making it a more interesting low-maintenance tank rather attempting to make the fighter good at everything.

 

HA! Good Fun!



#30
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Fighter is an example of how a single ability can turn a class from ok damage dealer to totally awesome damage dealer: Charge...

@ MaxQuest: If Take the Hit wouldn't be so bugged (in combination with mind control - you will receive the damage of charmed/dominated foes, even if the mind control ended) it would be a very good ability. Tried it with a super-regenerating fighter once and it was awesome for the overall party sturdyness as long as nobody got mind controlled.

Also Guarding Stance would be great if it only stacked with other deflection buffs.

Edited by Boeroer, 04 May 2017 - 09:28 PM.

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#31
Fardragon

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more interesting low-maintenance


Aren't these two objectives mutually exclusive?

#32
Karkarov

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there were literal dozens o' folks applauding the announced roles for the frontliners, with one exception: karakov. he were the only guy who criticized the fighter as being described a bit like a vanilla mmo tank.  everybody else posting seemed to agree the limited role o' the poe fighter, which would be much different from an ie game fighter, were a good thing.

Old Gromnir just threw me under the bus!  I feel like I am at work now :p

But yes, the original posting for fighter sounded very mmo'y.  And the original fighter in Eternity was very mmo'y.  I am not sure where all the classes ended up is better than where they started though.  A lot of mechanics changed in a big way, and I am not totally sure all those changes were for the best reasons.

 

That said don't buy this "enemies totally ignore engagement" hot air either.  Enemies will not ignore it, on higher difficulties that may happen in some scenarios, but most enemies will still stay in melee with a front liner if they get engaged and are melee enemies themselves.  That said, you put a tank, and a squishy melee side by side, they may switch to the squishy since doing that doesn't break engagement.


Edited by Karkarov, 05 May 2017 - 03:01 AM.

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#33
Judicator

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 which would be much different from an ie game fighter

 

This is my main issue. In the IE games, which PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor of, fighter-types were not only capable of holding back melee enemies, but they were capable of dishing out damage as well. Korgan dual-wielding the Axe of the Unyielding and Crom Frayer was a terrifying sight indeed.


Edited by Judicator, 05 May 2017 - 03:47 AM.


#34
MaxQuest

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@Boeroer, agreed, Charge is awesome)
But still, would you trade something like HoF for it?

As for Take the Hit... imho there should be some damage reduction, like nearby allies take 50% of the incoming damage, while fighter takes only 30%. Otherwise what's the point? If I don't want someone get hit, I won't place them on frontline near the fighter. Plus there are cc effects to keep enemies at bay.
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#35
Gromnir

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more interesting low-maintenance


Aren't these two objectives mutually exclusive?

 

not at all, particular for folks who is recalling how poe combat were first appreciated at the start o' the beta. one o' the most frequent complaints o' poe combat is related to pace-- is too frenetic.  for those o' us who has played the game to death, such speed issues is forgotten or unnoticeable, but many players, particular new players, see poe combat as fast and unforgiving.  having a dependable tank which needs less micromanagement (while still providing options if a player so desires to use 'em) is gonna be a boon for many.

 

regardless, the objectives is not mutual exclusive.  a low-maintenance class will not demand a player's constant attention, but labeling as such does not preclude the possibility o the developers having provided many combat (and non-combat) options for the player who desires more control o' the particular class.  

 

late edit: am aware 'o the tendency o' low-maintenace to seem boring.  even with all the actual fighter options, if one simple uses as a low-maintenance meat shield, then the fighter very well could seem boring.  however, with 11 classes, one need not like every class, yes?  you wanna play more active tank which produces greater dps?  is monks and barbarians and paladins and chanters which work excellent as tanks.  Gromnir, for example, dislikes chanters.  the chanter class is powerful and works as intended, but we prefer priests and paladins for support as we find the chants and invocations mechanics to be less than ideal to our playing style.  11 classes means roles should be more limited.  more limited roles means a greater likelihood somebody won't like a particular class.  however, eleven classes also means there is likely to be an alternative class available which should meet a player's expectations.  

 

 

 which would be much different from an ie game fighter

 

This is my main issue. In the IE games, which PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor of, fighter-types were not only capable of holding back melee enemies, but they were capable of dishing out damage as well. Korgan dual-wielding the Axe of the Unyielding and Crom Frayer was a terrifying sight indeed.

 

 

lord, save us from the "spiritual successor" stuff.  it means nothing.  while obsidian never promised such, whatever you mean by such a label is gonna be different than what Gromnir or maxquest or gifted might mean.  whatever is the essential qualities and aspects o' spiritual successor is so elastic as to deprive the shibboleth o' any actual meaning. poe has classes and familiar races and an isometric top-down view o' a multi-character party. is many ways in which poe and the ie games were similar.  why ain't the poe gestalt o' familiar ie features enough to be making it a spiritual successor? 'cause the poe fighter ain't enough like the bg2 fighter?  is different for you than for many others.  pointless to claim spiritual successor failure for a specific feature.

 

(insert eye-roll here)

 

poe fighters were identified, from the earliest days o' the poe development, as being different from the ie class o' the same name... which, ridiculously, is what folks is getting hung up 'pon. if the poe fighter were having been called a defender, and the rogue had been identified as a skirmisher, am suspecting most complaints wherein ghost o' ie were raised would never have happened. why should name be the problem when the developers made very clear the ie and poe versions would be different? nobody were snookered or tricked and nobody save for karakov complained... which ain't throwing him under the bus, but is rather an acknowledgement that he alone o' the folks complaining during the beta who had also posted in the fighter intro thread had some justification for doing so.

 

you point to a horribly broken bg2 example o' a well nigh unstoppable korgan dual-wielding overpowered weapons as to what is wrong, what is missing, from poe.  no.  just no.  

 

HA! Good Fun!


Edited by Gromnir, 05 May 2017 - 10:16 AM.


#36
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@Boeroer, agreed, Charge is awesome)
But still, would you trade something like HoF for it?

As for Take the Hit... imho there should be some damage reduction, like nearby allies take 50% of the incoming damage, while fighter takes only 30%. Otherwise what's the point? If I don't want someone get hit, I won't place them on frontline near the fighter. Plus there are cc effects to keep enemies at bay.

HoF deals more damage, sure. But with Charge you are so fast and mobile while dealing great damage, it's just awesome to zoom to casters, do a Knockdown, zoom to the next and so on. Also great that the target at the receiving end will take the damage of Charge and an additional Full Attack's damage. Most of the time that means instant death. Too bad it comes so late. It would make the fighter a much better class if you could take Charge earlier.

 

You didn't think of Take the Hit + Triggered Immunity. ;)

Besides that little trick - I can't remember if the 50% damage was pre DR or not. If it's pre DR it would be benefical since DR would apply twice. But I guess it was raw damage, right?

However, the trick is (or was) to build one very sturdy fighter with tons of CON and maxed out self heals who doesn't get hit a lot. I simply used a pike setup for the second row. That fighter could attack from the secons row, didn't get hit by enemies a lot and healed damage he got from Take the Hit via Constant Recovery, Rapid Recovery, CLoak of the Tireless Defender, Survival 14, Belt of Bountiful Healing and so on. A lot of damage gets concentrated on him and is not spread over the whole party, so healing is easy: you only need to heal him. That way you can build your front line a lot more damage oriented. Backside is that you always have to stay close.


Edited by Boeroer, 05 May 2017 - 12:48 PM.

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#37
MortyTheGobbo

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Another Fighter ability that should be a fixture is Overbearing Guard, I think. Or something similar, at least. Knocking down enemies who try to get past you gets you some actual stickiness. Of course, it comes at level 7, which is fairly early.


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#38
Judicator

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more interesting low-maintenance


Aren't these two objectives mutually exclusive?

 

not at all, particular for folks who is recalling how poe combat were first appreciated at the start o' the beta. one o' the most frequent complaints o' poe combat is related to pace-- is too frenetic.  for those o' us who has played the game to death, such speed issues is forgotten or unnoticeable, but many players, particular new players, see poe combat as fast and unforgiving.  having a dependable tank which needs less micromanagement (while still providing options if a player so desires to use 'em) is gonna be a boon for many.

 

regardless, the objectives is not mutual exclusive.  a low-maintenance class will not demand a player's constant attention, but labeling as such does not preclude the possibility o the developers having provided many combat (and non-combat) options for the player who desires more control o' the particular class.  

 

late edit: am aware 'o the tendency o' low-maintenace to seem boring.  even with all the actual fighter options, if one simple uses as a low-maintenance meat shield, then the fighter very well could seem boring.  however, with 11 classes, one need not like every class, yes?  you wanna play more active tank which produces greater dps?  is monks and barbarians and paladins and chanters which work excellent as tanks.  Gromnir, for example, dislikes chanters.  the chanter class is powerful and works as intended, but we prefer priests and paladins for support as we find the chants and invocations mechanics to be less than ideal to our playing style.  11 classes means roles should be more limited.  more limited roles means a greater likelihood somebody won't like a particular class.  however, eleven classes also means there is likely to be an alternative class available which should meet a player's expectations.  

 

 

 which would be much different from an ie game fighter

 

This is my main issue. In the IE games, which PoE is supposed to be a spiritual successor of, fighter-types were not only capable of holding back melee enemies, but they were capable of dishing out damage as well. Korgan dual-wielding the Axe of the Unyielding and Crom Frayer was a terrifying sight indeed.

 

 

lord, save us from the "spiritual successor" stuff.  it means nothing.  while obsidian never promised such, whatever you mean by such a label is gonna be different than what Gromnir or maxquest or gifted might mean.  whatever is the essential qualities and aspects o' spiritual successor is so elastic as to deprive the shibboleth o' any actual meaning. poe has classes and familiar races and an isometric top-down view o' a multi-character party. is many ways in which poe and the ie games were similar.  why ain't the poe gestalt o' familiar ie features enough to be making it a spiritual successor? 'cause the poe fighter ain't enough like the bg2 fighter?  is different for you than for many others.  pointless to claim spiritual successor failure for a specific feature.

 

(insert eye-roll here)

 

poe fighters were identified, from the earliest days o' the poe development, as being different from the ie class o' the same name... which, ridiculously, is what folks is getting hung up 'pon. if the poe fighter were having been called a defender, and the rogue had been identified as a skirmisher, am suspecting most complaints wherein ghost o' ie were raised would never have happened. why should name be the problem when the developers made very clear the ie and poe versions would be different? nobody were snookered or tricked and nobody save for karakov complained... which ain't throwing him under the bus, but is rather an acknowledgement that he alone o' the folks complaining during the beta who had also posted in the fighter intro thread had some justification for doing so.

 

you point to a horribly broken bg2 example o' a well nigh unstoppable korgan dual-wielding overpowered weapons as to what is wrong, what is missing, from poe.  no.  just no.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

Now hold on there. It was Obsidian that marketed PoE as a return to IE-style games like BG and IWD. If they wanted to seperate the IE Fighter from the PoE variant then they should have called it something else.

And I hardly consider Korgan broken when Sorcerers are in the game. Not to mention a whole bunch of different multi-class/item combos that were pretty OP. But then, that's part of the fun of BG, which is something PoE is missing, IMO.



#39
MaxQuest

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HoF deals more damage, sure. But with Charge you are so fast and mobile while dealing great damage, it's just awesome to zoom to casters, do a Knockdown, zoom to the next and so on. Also great that the target at the receiving end will take the damage of Charge and an additional Full Attack's damage. Most of the time that means instant death. Too bad it comes so late. It would make the fighter a much better class if you could take Charge earlier.

Plus you can let your ciphers target the fighter with Ectopsychic Echo, and than let him charge)
 

You didn't think of Take the Hit + Triggered Immunity. ;)

I am too lazy)
I know that Triggered Immunity procs when fighter takes an instance of damage greater than 10% of his max endurance.
For example dragon uses his breath, and immunity vs frost damage was activated. Then he receives raw damage from Take the Hit, and if it passes the threshold [immunity vs corrode] is substituted by [immunity vs raw]. Then he gets a Finishing Blow hit, and the existing immunity is substituted by [immunity vs crush], and so on...
I mean I am too lazy to think of effective way to use it :)

Not to mention that I only need Take the Hit protection in dragon encounters... and these are not the fights were I want to place my party near the fighter.

Edited by MaxQuest, 06 May 2017 - 08:37 AM.


#40
Gromnir

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Now hold on there. It was Obsidian that marketed PoE as a return to IE-style games like BG and IWD. If they wanted to seperate the IE Fighter from the PoE variant then they should have called it something else.

And I hardly consider Korgan broken when Sorcerers are in the game. Not to mention a whole bunch of different multi-class/item combos that were pretty OP. But then, that's part of the fun of BG, which is something PoE is missing, IMO.

 

 

fact sorcerers could be broken did not prevent korgan, dual-wielding artifacts, from also being busted. 'tween his berserker abilities and a handful o' potions or spells, you could make korgan immune to just 'bout anything, and dual-wielding with a hammer which raised his strength 25 and an insta-kill axe were silly busted. 

 

oh, and we agree 'bout the naming issue as you would recognize if you read our responses.  shoulda' named the poe fighter different.  defender or something similar.  nevertheless, not only did obsidian explain how a poe fighter would not be functioning the same as a ie game fighter, but they gave reasons as to why the poe fighter would not be able to do exact what you is asking from the developers.  all such explanations were made considerable in advance o' the game release, so no surprises or misleadings can be argued. 

 

http://forums.obsidi...ring/?p=1507492

 

is there a flaw in josh's reasoning, or is you simple arguing nostalgia?  you ain't demanding a return to the flawed ie game approach is required simple 'cause o' nostalgia, eh? spiritual successor is meaningless, but even if you see as some kinda gestalt, it sure as heck don't require obsidian to enshrine every ie game/d&d mistake.  making fighters equal capable at absorbing and delivering damage in ie games were a mistake as discussed by josh in the link.  use dual-wielding korgan hurts your argument as it is an example o' the overpowered nonsense possible in bg2. 

 

folks in this thread were pointing out just how fantabulous the poe fighters were at doing damage.  such a reality, sadly, were the result o' the obsidian developers letting the poe fighter getting out-o-hand. the poe fighter as it existed in the 3.0 builds were not the fighter described by josh way back in june o' 2014.

 

http://forums.obsidi...ians/?p=1460938

 

poe 2 developers should take the chance to correct the class role slippage which occurred during the beta and post release o' poe.  numerous classes were given superpowers which blurred their class identities.  mistake.  

 

HA! Good Fun!






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