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Ydwin to return in the expansion?


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#461
daven

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I'm going to murder this character as soon as I meet her now. SEE HOW YOU ALL LIKE THAT!

 

BAHAHAHA!


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#462
Lord_Mord

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Normally you are fairly reasonable but I have to ask, is something about this subject personal to you?

 

Despite my continous fear that the one game that I found acceptable since 17 years could be transformed into a crowd pleasing monstrosity at any time? No.

To be honest, even the companions in Pillars 1 had something cute and teenager-like about them. I understand that computer games are for teenagers, but what I really want are serious characters. You know serious not like "I have somewhat of a split personality and dont know how to deal with it" or "I have a problem with authority". That are basically teenager problems transfered into a magical medieval world. I mean serious characters like The Name Of The Rose serious or serious characters like Hard To Be A God serious.


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#463
Messier-31

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I'm going to murder this character as soon as I meet her now. SEE HOW YOU ALL LIKE THAT!

 

BAHAHAHA!

 

In my playthrough Ydwin and Bonteru will assasinate Tekehu.

 

How do you like them apples?



#464
daven

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I'm going to murder this character as soon as I meet her now. SEE HOW YOU ALL LIKE THAT!

 

BAHAHAHA!

 

In my playthrough Ydwin and Bonteru will assasinate Tekehu.

 

How do you like them apples?

 

I don't like that sound of them apples..... what am I gonna do?!



#465
FlintlockJazz

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I'm going to murder this character as soon as I meet her now. SEE HOW YOU ALL LIKE THAT!

 

BAHAHAHA!

 

In my playthrough Ydwin and Bonteru will assasinate Tekehu.

 

How do you like them apples?

 

I don't like that sound of them apples..... what am I gonna do?!

 

*hands pamphlet*

Accept Dwarfism into your life.  Join us in the fight to bring about the glory of Dwarfs/Dwarves into every game!


Edited by FlintlockJazz, 13 September 2017 - 12:42 AM.

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#466
rjshae

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What this thread needs is a super mellow Dwarven party member named Xanax...


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#467
algroth

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I must say, am I the only one who didn't walk away from the game thinking it put animancers in a bad light?  Sure, it shows them doing bad stuff but it also was clear that they could do good stuff I thought, and that it was a double-edged sword like any tech.  I actually thought they were pushing the "animancy is good!" a bit too hard at some points, and that you were being corralled into being pro-animancer as the good option!  Was I playing a different game to the rest of you?  Did I mistake a cardboard box for my PC again?

 

Exactly this. In fact, personally I felt that the questionable acts by animancy were only included so as to make what is obviously the best and most sensible choice be tinged with a bit of grey. I thought it was a pretty clear-cut choice when the alternative was to stunt progress and vindicate the people's superstitions.


Edited by algroth, 13 September 2017 - 07:10 AM.

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#468
smjjames

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I must say, am I the only one who didn't walk away from the game thinking it put animancers in a bad light?  Sure, it shows them doing bad stuff but it also was clear that they could do good stuff I thought, and that it was a double-edged sword like any tech.  I actually thought they were pushing the "animancy is good!" a bit too hard at some points, and that you were being corralled into being pro-animancer as the good option!  Was I playing a different game to the rest of you?  Did I mistake a cardboard box for my PC again?

 

Exactly this. In fact, personally I felt that the worst acts by animancy were only included so as to make what is obviously the best and most sensible choice be tinged with a bit of grey.

 

 

Well, it does place them in the middle of a crisis and desperacy in a crisis tends to drive people towards extreme or otherwise unorthodox solutions. Thaos screwing around didn't help either, but he was anti-animancy.

 

The Durgan's Battery dwarves apparently practiced some form of animancy (their forge guardians were like advanced versions of what the Knights of the Crucible were trying to accomplish. Don't know whether the battery guardians were a result of animancy or a type of spirit.

 

Evidently the proccesses of creating constructs like what Galvino was trying to perfect is more advanced or done differently in the Deadfire region. Then again, five years does give time for knowledge to spread.

 

Also, on the animancy front regarding Ydwin, she's the animancy version of a pioneer in forensics science.


Edited by smjjames, 13 September 2017 - 07:17 AM.


#469
Lord_Mord

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Yeah. Animancers are heroes. Like supercool surgeons or something. The gods in white. Except for the part where they take souls from the wheel and prevent them from being reborn, just to create some kind of robots.



#470
algroth

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Yeah. Animancers are heroes. Like supercool surgeons or something. The gods in white. Except for the part where they take souls from the wheel and prevent them from being reborn, just to create some kind of robots.

*Some* animancers, that is. And that's really the problem. Animancy is the game's stand-in for science, and this could be used as much for trapping souls in constructs as it could for helping fractured souls to find their 'twin'. The issue here falls down to individual practices of animancy and not animancy in general, and I do think that is made pretty clear throughout the game's length. Again, though, the alternative presented is really just superstition, and from the present day rationalist perspective, science will trump it every time.



#471
Gromnir

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 The issue here falls down to individual practices of animancy and not animancy in general, and I do think that is made pretty clear throughout the game's length.

not true.  the problem is animancy is a stand-in for real world science, but real world science, in spite o' the horrors o' which it is capable, does not require the manipulation o' souls. frankenstein's monster is a boogie man o' science, and a cautionary tale, but the monster's sin were... what?  

 

repost:

 

frankenstein is the frequent used real world cautionary tale 'bout science run amok yes? were fiction. there never were no frankenstein monster. in point o' fact, ms. shelley's monster were benign for most o' the novel. dr. frankenstein creates and is horrified by the creature's ugliness and crudity. the monster is cast out and wanders alone 'til it decides to observe and aid a family kinda in secret. monster eventually learns french and befriends some old blind guy. happy days. everything is ok til family returns and sees the hideous monster and the 'beast' is again driven away. our misbegotten protagonist returns to dr. frankenstein and observes that he will never gain acceptance from people, and so he asks his maker to craft for him a companion. dr. frankenstein initially agrees, but then he starts to worry about the implications o' a race o' monsters, and so he destroys his female creation. the monster finally snaps and swears he will get revenge on frankenstein.
 
if frankenstein's monster has gained a foothold in the collective consciousness as representing the dangers o' science run amok, what then o' the Real Monsters produced by animancy? how much more terrible and vivid is gonna be the nightmares attributed to animancy given that the poe science does require trafficking in human souls and may result in undying monsters? 
 
end repost
 
is a fundamental flaw in using animancy as the representative o' tech and science.  manipulation o' souls is different.  create multitudes o' souless children and rampaging hodes o' undead monsters is the kinda scary nightmares the ignorant imagine is the inevitable end to which science leads.  with animancy, the creation o' monsters and horrors is real.  rip souls, which ain't an abstract such as in the our world but is objective and even tangible, from living bodies or eternity to power creations benign and malefic is not similar to the moral conundrums o' stem cell research or the environmental impact o' coal.
 
deserves a new thread, but the problem o' poe/deadfire animancy is fundamental.  science and animancy is different.
 
HA! Good Fun!


#472
rjshae

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Yeah. Animancers are heroes. Like supercool surgeons or something. The gods in white. Except for the part where they take souls from the wheel and prevent them from being reborn, just to create some kind of robots.

*Some* animancers, that is. And that's really the problem. Animancy is the game's stand-in for science, and this could be used as much for trapping souls in constructs as it could for helping fractured souls to find their 'twin'. The issue here falls down to individual practices of animancy and not animancy in general, and I do think that is made pretty clear throughout the game's length. Again, though, the alternative presented is really just superstition, and from the present day rationalist perspective, science will trump it every time.

 

I don't recall how the hollowborn crisis was interpreted by the animancers, but it appears that Waiden's Legacy was the price to be paid for the practice of trapping souls. It isn't a superstitious belief when direct evidence of the consequence of animancy becomes available via the player's agency. I would expect that information to spread throughout the culture like a meme, transmitted in part by some of the party members, and eventually shaping everybody's interpretation of animancy.



#473
algroth

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 The issue here falls down to individual practices of animancy and not animancy in general, and I do think that is made pretty clear throughout the game's length.

not true.  the problem is animancy is a stand-in for real world science, but real world science, in spite o' the horrors o' which it is capable, does not require the manipulation o' souls. frankenstein's monster is a boogie man o' science, and a cautionary tale, but the monster's sin were... what?  

 

repost:

 

frankenstein is the frequent used real world cautionary tale 'bout science run amok yes? were fiction. there never were no frankenstein monster. in point o' fact, ms. shelley's monster were benign for most o' the novel. dr. frankenstein creates and is horrified by the creature's ugliness and crudity. the monster is cast out and wanders alone 'til it decides to observe and aid a family kinda in secret. monster eventually learns french and befriends some old blind guy. happy days. everything is ok til family returns and sees the hideous monster and the 'beast' is again driven away. our misbegotten protagonist returns to dr. frankenstein and observes that he will never gain acceptance from people, and so he asks his maker to craft for him a companion. dr. frankenstein initially agrees, but then he starts to worry about the implications o' a race o' monsters, and so he destroys his female creation. the monster finally snaps and swears he will get revenge on frankenstein.
 
if frankenstein's monster has gained a foothold in the collective consciousness as representing the dangers o' science run amok, what then o' the Real Monsters produced by animancy? how much more terrible and vivid is gonna be the nightmares attributed to animancy given that the poe science does require trafficking in human souls and may result in undying monsters? 
 
end repost
 
is a fundamental flaw in using animancy as the representative o' tech and science.  manipulation o' souls is different.  create multitudes o' souless children and rampaging hodes o' undead monsters is the kinda scary nightmares the ignorant imagine is the inevitable end to which science leads.  with animancy, the creation o' monsters and horrors is real.  rip souls, which ain't an abstract such as in the our world but is objective and even tangible, from living bodies or eternity to power creations benign and malefic is not similar to the moral conundrums o' stem cell research or the environmental impact o' coal.
 
deserves a new thread, but the problem o' poe/deadfire animancy is fundamental.  science and animancy is different.
 
HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Animancy is not just about the manipulation of souls, however. It refers to the general study of souls, which can involve their manipulation as well as the observation and theorization of their characteristics, behaviour, etc. What's more, what some may see as manipulation others may see as treatment. Take the example of the dragon whose soul was 'bleeding' during White March. Transpose this to a kith, remove the possibility of them to know or meet a Watcher. An animancer may study this person's condition and through treatment - or manipulation - find a way to stop the bleeding. Alternatively, they may tell the person in question what is going on with them better than the person ever would themselves, and point them to someone who may help, namely a Watcher.

 

And animancy *is* presented as a science in the game itself, and more importantly, it is the only science in Eora that the game explores with any real detail. This is crucial to be able to understand what the game is about in the first place, because it is about the birth of humanism and it is about the transition into the Renaissant period. That the game borrows so much from this period is not an accident. As such, animancy does exist in the game as a representative for the fledgling sciences of the time as well.

 

And sure, animancy can create real monsters in the game itself, but I don't really see how that changes much in terms of its representational value. That it stands for something doesn't mean that it is the exact same thing. The history of neuroscience is no less disturbing once you delve deep enough into it, either, nor is the atom bomb's existence any less horrific than these 'real monsters'. Nor does it imply that every animancer is interested in creating monsters, and I think enough cases and points of view are given through the original game to show this.


Edited by algroth, 13 September 2017 - 08:53 AM.

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#474
CottonWolf

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Yeah. Animancers are heroes. Like supercool surgeons or something. The gods in white. Except for the part where they take souls from the wheel and prevent them from being reborn, just to create some kind of robots.

*Some* animancers, that is. And that's really the problem. Animancy is the game's stand-in for science, and this could be used as much for trapping souls in constructs as it could for helping fractured souls to find their 'twin'. The issue here falls down to individual practices of animancy and not animancy in general, and I do think that is made pretty clear throughout the game's length. Again, though, the alternative presented is really just superstition, and from the present day rationalist perspective, science will trump it every time.

 

I don't recall how the hollowborn crisis was interpreted by the animancers, but it appears that Waiden's Legacy was the price to be paid for the practice of trapping souls. It isn't a superstitious belief when direct evidence of the consequence of animancy becomes available via the player's agency. I would expect that information to spread throughout the culture like a meme, transmitted in part by some of the party members, and eventually shaping everybody's interpretation of animancy.

 

That either explicitly happens or doesn't depending on how you play things out at the Animancy trial at the end of act 2. If you're convincing enough and positive about animancy, everyone thinks it was the Leaden Key attempting to malign animancer's good names, and vice versa if you're negative about it.



#475
algroth

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Yeah. Animancers are heroes. Like supercool surgeons or something. The gods in white. Except for the part where they take souls from the wheel and prevent them from being reborn, just to create some kind of robots.

*Some* animancers, that is. And that's really the problem. Animancy is the game's stand-in for science, and this could be used as much for trapping souls in constructs as it could for helping fractured souls to find their 'twin'. The issue here falls down to individual practices of animancy and not animancy in general, and I do think that is made pretty clear throughout the game's length. Again, though, the alternative presented is really just superstition, and from the present day rationalist perspective, science will trump it every time.

 

I don't recall how the hollowborn crisis was interpreted by the animancers, but it appears that Waiden's Legacy was the price to be paid for the practice of trapping souls. It isn't a superstitious belief when direct evidence of the consequence of animancy becomes available via the player's agency. I would expect that information to spread throughout the culture like a meme, transmitted in part by some of the party members, and eventually shaping everybody's interpretation of animancy.

 

No, Waidwen's Legacy had nothing to do with the animancers of the time, but was blamed on them by the superstitious crowds as motivated by Thaos and the Leaden Key. The assumption from the masses as the Legacy carried on was that they were being punished for transgressions against either Eothas or the gods in general, and saw animancy as a forbidden study as it ventured into what they believed to be the gods' domain (namely, souls). Though yes, it is also true that the machines that allowed the Legacy to happen were created by Engwithans, and no doubt they possessed knowledge or theory along the lines of animancy too which allowed them to create these in the first place. The purpose was different, of course: these weren't made for the deliberate intention of wiping out a generation but, if I'm not mistaken, for gathering souls by the mass so as to build the gods that rule over present-day Eora. They were soul-magnets which were repurposed by the Leaden Key into the tools to create the Legacy. But as for the animancers and their present-day practices, none of that was a cause for the Legacy, just used as a target by superstitious groups like the Dozens and so on - the reason why things like wichts came about was because they were trying to find a *cure* for the Legacy after it begun, and as mentioned in the game itself, for a while it looked like the process of transferring animal souls into Hollowborn children did work (it's only when they grew up, years later, that things got awkward).


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#476
Gromnir

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And sure, animancy can create real monsters in the game itself, but I don't really see how that changes much in terms of its representational value. 

 

how could it not? real monsters. real souls. doesn't matter how many parallels there is to real world sciences and scientists when there is such fundamental and salient differences as we discussed already.  unfortunate, previous experience tells us the inability (feigned?) to recognize how real monsters and real souls changes the basic discussion is making progress impossible. 

 

HA! Good Fun!



#477
algroth

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And sure, animancy can create real monsters in the game itself, but I don't really see how that changes much in terms of its representational value. 

 

how could it not? real monsters. real souls. doesn't matter how many parallels there is to real world sciences and scientists when there is such fundamental and salient differences as we discussed already.  unfortunate, previous experience tells us the inability (feigned?) to recognize how real monsters and real souls changes the basic discussion is making progress impossible. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I've given you the example of a real monster: the atom bomb. You'll argue that it's not a monster, it's a weapon, but it's a device designed with the deliberate intent of mass destruction and I see its use as monstrous (and it has been used before). It's real, and it's more frightening than any wicht or construct or Frankenstein's monster. But I do not use its existence to argue that the entirety of nuclear physics or technology is wrong, and so when I see animancers in the game itself using animancy positively and with the intentions of the betterment of kith, I do not assume animancy to be bad in and of itself either.


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#478
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rip souls, which ain't an abstract such as in the our world but is objective and even tangible, from living bodies or eternity to power creations benign and malefic is not similar to the moral conundrums o' stem cell research or the environmental impact o' coal.

 

The only reason I can see that the misuses of real world science are different to the misuses of animancy in Eora is because of the prevalence of a belief in souls in our world. If, like me, you don't believe that I (or any one else) has a soul then the abuses of science are just as evil as those of animancy. Of course, if you believe your essence will go on after your death then that all changes.

 

As a side note: as I understand it souls in Eora aren't really like those described in, say, Christianity. When a person dies in Eora their soul, eventually, returns to the wheel where it is very often broken apart and recombined with other souls before being born into a new person. In general the "person" ceases to exist after death, with awakenings and such being the exception rather than the norm. Basically whilst the soul is fundamental to living creatures, it is not their immortal essence.


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#479
algroth

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rip souls, which ain't an abstract such as in the our world but is objective and even tangible, from living bodies or eternity to power creations benign and malefic is not similar to the moral conundrums o' stem cell research or the environmental impact o' coal.

 

The only reason I can see that the misuses of real world science are different to the misuses of animancy in Eora is because of the prevalence of a belief in souls in our world. If, like me, you don't believe that I (or any one else) has a soul then the abuses of science are just as evil as those of animancy. Of course, if you believe your essence will go on after your death then that all changes.

 

As a side note: as I understand it souls in Eora aren't really like those described in, say, Christianity. When a person dies in Eora their soul, eventually, returns to the wheel where it is very often broken apart and recombined with other souls before being born into a new person. In general the "person" ceases to exist after death, with awakenings and such being the exception rather than the norm. Basically whilst the soul is fundamental to living creatures, it is not their immortal essence.

 

You could say a soul is a real manifestation that harbour their individual person and sense of self - in that sense there is a parallel to the neurosciences and these do have a history of despicable procedures and experiments that either killed or radically altered the patients and subjects they worked with (not to mention the occasional malpraxis as well). Again, I don't really think these disciplines reduce themselves to this either.


Edited by algroth, 13 September 2017 - 09:21 AM.

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#480
Gromnir

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And sure, animancy can create real monsters in the game itself, but I don't really see how that changes much in terms of its representational value. 

 

how could it not? real monsters. real souls. doesn't matter how many parallels there is to real world sciences and scientists when there is such fundamental and salient differences as we discussed already.  unfortunate, previous experience tells us the inability (feigned?) to recognize how real monsters and real souls changes the basic discussion is making progress impossible. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

I've given you the example of a real monster: the atom bomb. You'll argue that it's not a monster, it's a weapon, but it's a device designed with the deliberate intent of mass destruction and I see its use as monstrous (and it has been used before). It's real, and it's more frightening than any wicht or construct or Frankenstein's monster. But I do not use its existence to argue that the entirety of nuclear physics or technology is wrong, and so when I see animancers in the game itself using animancy positively and with the intentions of the betterment of kith, I do not assume animancy to be bad in and of itself either.

 

'course the a bomb is not a monster.  the a-bomb were the result o' rational and predictable design.  the weapon worked exact as planned.  in fact, your politics aside, the one use o' the weapon in history arguable saved many lives. "we shall probably have to kill at least 5 to 10 million Japanese. this might cost us between 1.7 and 4 million casualties including [between] 400,000 and 800,000 killed."-- based on estimates by nobel laureate, dr. shockley.  were no science run amok resulting in soulless babies or rampaging undead.  were no amok at all.  has been all kinda mass killings in history.  the scope o' human atrocities is not circumscribed by science.  genocides, slave cullings, atrocities (great and small) occurred long before tech more complex than anything save the plow.  the a-bomb itself is functional a large bomb, and resulted in fewer deaths than the firebombing o' tokyo btw.  were a tool and, more important, the science behind the tool cannot result in monsters and soulless children.... save in comics and video games.

 

some folks will no doubt rage at the suggestion the a-bomb saved lives, but fact is there were no amok.  the tool worked exact as intended and it didn't require souls to be powered... and no claims souls were destroyed in the blasts at nagasaki or hiroshima. now if the a-bomb were created by forcibly ripping the souls o' ten thousand orphans from their infant bodies and forcing 'em into some kinda alchemical device, then we would see parallels. mere creation o' the weapon, use or not, would be monstrous. 

 

a-bomb is actual a terrible example. sure, science and animancy both result in moral questions. just because science can achieve ______ doesn't mean science should be used to create _________.  same for animancy.  unfortunate, one can say the same 'bout many human endeavours.  law. journalism. politics, etc. the simple fact moral questions exist for both don't erase fundamental differences.

 

animancy is different.  the fundamental question o' the morality o' using human souls to power and the capacity to create genuine monsters makes different.  am suspecting you know such makes different but you don't see the differences as significant... which is baffling.  is perhaps understandable as you has convinced self o' the parallel o' animancy and science, so you is willing to ignore said differences, but such embracing o' three wise monkey routine is gonna yet again prove insurmountable.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps to jerek, souls in eora is not hypothetical.  is real.  soulless children is abomination.  one can see, objective, what absence o' a soul does to a being. trapped souls you encounter after taking leap o' faith into the pit should also disabuse one o' the notion eora's souls is marked different from real world imaginings.  even so, can't use real world for this.  in the real world, countless bloody wars were fought over religion and mere shared guesses concerning the disposition o' souls. eora gots objective souls, so how much more poignant?

 

is same mistake repeated.  see animancy same as science. see eora souls same as real world. 

 

ignoring the monster issue is also a mistake.  the common people o' the real world were frequent terrified o' the Potential for creation o' monsters by science.  the number o' people who suffered throughout history mere 'cause the people, educated and ignorant, believed science were capable o' creating monsters, is considerable.  in a world where the science does result in real monsters being unleashed in large numbers, the reaction to the advancement o' science would be more or less violent? be honest.

 

pps will once again observe how this animancy stuff belongs in another thread.  have been such threads in the past.  our apologies to mods for our contribution to helping derail this thread.  will continue in a different thread if people wanna start one... but keep in mind, this ain't a new debate.


Edited by Gromnir, 13 September 2017 - 10:08 AM.





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