Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Attributes


  • Please log in to reply
147 replies to this topic

#41
Messier-31

Messier-31

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1570 posts
  • Location:Łódź, Poland
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
As long as Pillars of Eternity isn't a carbon copy of Infinity Engine games, people won't stop arguing about why is that wrong. Obsidian brought that upon themselves by building their KS on IE legacy I suppose.

 

IIRC the IE promise was about:

  • Planescape Torment style storytelling
  • Baldur's Gate style exploration
  • Icewind Dale style engaging strategy and battles

No-one ever said a thing about other stuff, like stat systems, gaining experience or level progression.


  • gogocactus, Lord_Mord, PizzaSHARK and 2 others like this

#42
tinysalamander

tinysalamander

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 313 posts

Here's my quick take on stats and how I would change them.

 

Might:

 

1) Remove mental strength from Might. There's already Resolve, Intelligence and Perception that cover all aspects of the psychic side better and more convincingly. 3 strictly physical and 3 mental stats is a good balance.

2) Give weapons and armor strength requirements to use. This makes strength useful for any class who wants to melee. Might score would reflect the characters ability in a descriptive way e.g. "he's too weak to wield a proper axe har har" or "she moves like a drunk snail in plate armor"

3) Increase damage modifier to +5% per point but only for those points that exceed a weapons strength requirement, E.g. Sword requires 12 Might to use, 12 Might = 15 dmg, 16 Might = 18 damage.

 

I’m going to “play” PoE2 on Youtube if that happens.


  • illathid, Messier-31, anameforobsidian and 1 other like this

#43
PizzaSHARK

PizzaSHARK

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 53 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer


 



 


 


Your argument applies purely to power gaming. Other approaches that make sense are cases where the player wants to play a particular build that isn't tightly wrapped around that narrow power gaming concept. Let's call it "role-playing". Players do play the game that way, and the attribute system makes it viable.

So in other words: you don't want to play a game, you want to play make-believe. You can do that if you want, but don't expect others to take your views on character building seriously if that is your aim.
There has to be a balance reached between the two. Average player (aka majority) is gonna fall in the middle on this. they want to role play and play a character ideal but still want to be effective, gameplay wise, without having to get too deep into (or worry about) the math and mechanics. My point being, what would be some exceptable middle ground changes that arent pure role play or pure power gaming? Thats where I have a hard time thinking what could be changed to make it better overall.

 

Yes, I tend to build based on the character I want to play rather than for power gaming purposes. My geeky power gaming "munchkin" itch has long since been sated and now I prefer flexibility in design. A less optimal but more interesting character is simply more enjoyable to play.

 

Unless one is playing with an entire party of custom characters, creating your PC purely for power gaming purposes isn't going to make a major difference anyway. You're just one-sixth of a team made up of mostly pre-built, non-optimized characters.

 

 

Right, but this is a forum that largely caters to the power gamers, the people that want to know exactly how things tick.  Going "well I don't want to power game!" here is kind of silly.  Who cares what "average" players want?  Give them an "automatically assign stats" button to go with the "level up automatically" option and they can focus on having fun.  Pathfinder is not somehow hostile to roleplaying and "just want to have fun" players that don't obsess over eking 5% more throughput from their attributes, despite being a "Wizards must have Intelligence" system.  You'd simply have an interface that goes "Strength is necessary for Fighters, Dexterity and Constitution are recommended!" and that would make everything accessible and simple for regular players (along with "suggested feats" buttons like we got in KOTOR 2 etc.)

 

I'm not even talking about min-maxing when I say every build needs Might and Intelligence to be good.  I don't min-max any of my characters.  Doesn't make Might and Intelligence any less dominant.

 

 



Here's my quick take on stats and how I would change them.

 

Might:

 

1) Remove mental strength from Might. There's already Resolve, Intelligence and Perception that cover all aspects of the psychic side better and more convincingly. 3 strictly physical and 3 mental stats is a good balance.

2) Give weapons and armor strength requirements to use. This makes strength useful for any class who wants to melee. Might score would reflect the characters ability in a descriptive way e.g. "he's too weak to wield a proper axe har har" or "she moves like a drunk snail in plate armor"

3) Increase damage modifier to +5% per point but only for those points that exceed a weapons strength requirement, E.g. Sword requires 12 Might to use, 12 Might = 15 dmg, 16 Might = 18 damage.

 

Constitution:

 

1) A major change outside stats but one that affects Constitution's importance would be: Encounter powers have unlimited use but are paid for with Endurance. Endurance regenerates slowly in combat and high Constitution increases the regeneration rate. Constitution is just flat out useful for everyone instead of the bit of a dump stat is currently is in Pillars.

 

2) Since Endurance is now more of a resource in combat rather than just a health bar, add a separate Injury system where getting hit at low Endurance can cause persistent Injuries that impose penalties. High Constitution = high Endurace = harder to injure (unless you exert yourself in combat with too many knockdowns or arcane veils or whatnot.)

 

Dexterity:

 

1) I'd remove action speed from Dex. Action speed is a bit of an unnecessary modifer on top of accuracy vs. defense and dmg vs dmg reduction. It basically adds damage since you attack more frequently, but it's very difficult to know just how effective it is without doing math or spreadsheets which are not fun in a game. Arguably attack speed has more to do with weapon weight and strength anyway.

 

2) Replace action speed with an improved Deflection bonus, +2% per point. Slick evaders and skilled blockers are about speed and coordination, not so much about being strong willed.

 

Perception:

 

1) Remove the Interrupt mechanic as such from the game. Any hit's damage already determines how much of an Interrupt it is. And Perception already makes you more likely to interrupt someone since you are more likely to hit or crit in the first place. Interrupt is another mechanic that was already in the system before it was unnecessarily duplicated. It's confusing, unnecessary and hard to understand how much it really does. Axe it.

 

2) Raise Accuracy modifier to +2 per point. Very useful for everyone. Only use for spells that need to be aimed at a target e.g. rays and single target projectiles.

 

3) Have Perception influence detection skills for secrets, traps and sneaking enemies but still have those abilities as trainable skills.

 

4) Influence the amount of spells a Wizard or any other memorizing caster can memorize instead of the flat 4 per level. (Let's say Perception includes memory, keen senses, sharp mind.)

 

 

Intelligence:

 

Have Intelligence influence the amount of skill points for all classes. Intelligence means ability to learn and adapt which clearly translates to a wider assortment of skills or deep specialization in a particular field.

 

Resolve:

 

1) Remove Deflection bonus from Resolve. You can't will yourself to block an attack if you're simply too slow.

 

2) Encounter powers cost -5% Endurance per point

 

 

I think the entire spell system could use some kind of a reworking on how stats affect spell Accuracy and what the relation between spell-like Encounter powers and actual spells is. Resolve could be used in a will contest for control/mind type effects and their duration while Intelligence could provide general spell potency and Perception could help with spells that need to actually be aimed at someone. Can't get into that now. :)

 

 

What I wouldn't change is how the stats affect Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses. That's just right.

 

I would make offensive stats contribute less to defenses than the defensive stats.  Might gives you a bonus to Fortitude, but you get more per point from Constitution.  Resolve gives you more to Will than Intelligence, and you get more out of Perception than you do Dexterity (this one's tricky since both are arguably of equal importance for "get out of the way of the big fireball", and both are arguably offensive stats.)

 

I don't know to fix Action Speed.  It's a total mess and while I understand holding to turn-based concepts like rounds is kind of archaic for a RTwP game format, it makes it so much easier to understand and calculate things.  "Haste gives you an additional attack per round at your highest attack bonus (full ACC in Pillars terms)" is so much easier to quantify and understand than "ADoM increases your action speed by 50% but you need to calculate how much you're getting from Dexterity and losing from your armor penalty to figure out what that actually means."  I don't expect them to scrap the current system, of course, but it's unnecessarily confusing and seems like a questionable design choice.  I do like the idea of actions starting immediately after completion (rather than a "cooldown" period), and Action Speed just influencing how long an action takes.  Characters standing around staring at each other menacingly was always one of the downsides of the IE's RTwP system.

 

 



 


As long as Pillars of Eternity isn't a carbon copy of Infinity Engine games, people won't stop arguing about why is that wrong. Obsidian brought that upon themselves by building their KS on IE legacy I suppose.

 

IIRC the IE promise was about:

  • Planescape Torment style storytelling

  • Baldur's Gate style exploration

  • Icewind Dale style engaging strategy and battles

No-one ever said a thing about other stuff, like stat systems, gaining experience or level progression.

 

 

It only delivered on the Baldur's Gate style exploration, though.  The storytelling fluctuates between "pretty decent" and "bland", and Pillars has less tactical depth than any IE game except perhaps BG1 (which was a 2E game built for low levels.)  They absolutely nailed the BG1 feeling of exploring random areas, though.

 

I give Obsidian a lot of **** because I know what these people are capable of.  They're industry veterans with phenomenal writers, game designers, artists, animators, etc.  Pillars was such a massive ****ing let-down for me in so many ways and it's got me gun shy about Deadfire.  I backed it because I have faith in the skill of the fine people working at Obsidian, but they really need to knock this one out of the park.  They stretched themselves too thin with Pillars, and I really hope they go for a more Tyranny style "less is more" focus for Deadfire.  If they want to add stuff after launch for us to explore and investigate (whether free or sold as expansions), I'm totally fine with that if it means the core product is more polished and balanced as a result.



#44
Sedrefilos

Sedrefilos

    (8) Warlock

  • Members
  • 1183 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Are all those people ranting about stats aware that this is a role playing game and not just a fantasy combat dungeon crawler? This stat system helps you (role) play almost any character you can envision (that is possible within the unavoidable restrictions of a video game). Why wish for something closer to DnD systems that traslate so bad in video games?

The problems of Pillars are not the stats, imo, and the team showed with White March that they are aware of what they did wrong; I'm very optimistic about character creation/advancement for the sequel from what I've seen in their updates up to now.


  • illathid, Messier-31, Lord_Mord and 4 others like this

#45
Ninjamestari

Ninjamestari

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 459 posts

There has to be a balance reached between the two. Average player (aka majority) is gonna fall in the middle on this. they want to role play and play a character ideal but still want to be effective, gameplay wise, without having to get too deep into (or worry about) the math and mechanics. My point being, what would be some acceptable middle ground changes that arent pure role play or pure power gaming? Thats where I have a hard time thinking what could be changed to make it better overall.

 

 

No it doesn't, because the two aren't mutually exclusive. You can create a game that has well specified mechanics for the different kinds of characters people want to create; this benefits both groups since strongly specified mechanics firmly rooted in reality and fantasy rather than being there for convenient gearing and easy stat distribution will not only make the game more interesting, but it will provide a stronger context for those 'silly' builds people are so fond of and why they're weaker in some aspect and useful in certain other ways. Like has been said, there already are lower difficulty options for those interested purely on the make-believe, let game-mechanics have some actual meaning for the rest of us.



#46
DigitalCrack

DigitalCrack

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 244 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

There has to be a balance reached between the two. Average player (aka majority) is gonna fall in the middle on this. they want to role play and play a character ideal but still want to be effective, gameplay wise, without having to get too deep into (or worry about) the math and mechanics. My point being, what would be some acceptable middle ground changes that arent pure role play or pure power gaming? Thats where I have a hard time thinking what could be changed to make it better overall.


No it doesn't, because the two aren't mutually exclusive. You can create a game that has well specified mechanics for the different kinds of characters people want to create; this benefits both groups since strongly specified mechanics firmly rooted in reality and fantasy rather than being there for convenient gearing and easy stat distribution will not only make the game more interesting, but it will provide a stronger context for those 'silly' builds people are so fond of and why they're weaker in some aspect and useful in certain other ways. Like has been said, there already are lower difficulty options for those interested purely on the make-believe, let game-mechanics have some actual meaning for the rest of us.

Yet based off what both sides are currently saying they are (at least here anyway.) For me personally I would love to keep the statistics, at face value, the same but just let them have more of an impact on your character. Of everything thats been said, thats the one thing I can get behind is the bonuses need to be greater per point for each stat. The whole "might shouldnt represent all damage" which seems to be a hot button issue, is small potatos compared to stats needing to make more of an impact.
  • dukeisaac likes this

#47
Ninjamestari

Ninjamestari

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 459 posts

Yet based off what both sides are currently saying they are (at least here anyway.) For me personally I would love to keep the statistics, at face value, the same but just let them have more of an impact on your character. Of everything thats been said, thats the one thing I can get behind is the bonuses need to be greater per point for each stat. The whole "might shouldnt represent all damage" which seems to be a hot button issue, is small potatos compared to stats needing to make more of an impact.

 

Then might I be so bold as to suggest that both sides are currently (at least here anyway) wrong. A more D&D style approach to what the stats represent allows for everything the defendants claim they want, silly builds aren't down to the 'system', they are down to the details of class and ability mechanics. There are two groups of people; the ones that can see the disconnect caused by the whole soul-stat-system and the ones that can't. Fixing the issue and separating the stats into physical and mental ones would fix that for the first group, but it wouldn't take anything away from the second group. Everyone could be a bunch of happy pandas.



#48
Fenixp

Fenixp

    (12) Mage

  • Members
  • 1811 posts
  • Steam:Fenixp
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

IIRC the IE promise was about:

  • Planescape Torment style storytelling
  • Baldur's Gate style exploration
  • Icewind Dale style engaging strategy and battles
No-one ever said a thing about other stuff, like stat systems, gaining experience or level progression.

Obviously, considering Obsidian doesn't have license to DnD. Tell that to the people who insist on the comparison tho.
  • Messier-31 and draego like this

#49
1varangian

1varangian

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 114 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

 

I would make offensive stats contribute less to defenses than the defensive stats.  Might gives you a bonus to Fortitude, but you get more per point from Constitution.  Resolve gives you more to Will than Intelligence, and you get more out of Perception than you do Dexterity (this one's tricky since both are arguably of equal importance for "get out of the way of the big fireball", and both are arguably offensive stats.)

 

I don't know to fix Action Speed.  It's a total mess and while I understand holding to turn-based concepts like rounds is kind of archaic for a RTwP game format, it makes it so much easier to understand and calculate things.  "Haste gives you an additional attack per round at your highest attack bonus (full ACC in Pillars terms)" is so much easier to quantify and understand than "ADoM increases your action speed by 50% but you need to calculate how much you're getting from Dexterity and losing from your armor penalty to figure out what that actually means."  I don't expect them to scrap the current system, of course, but it's unnecessarily confusing and seems like a questionable design choice.  I do like the idea of actions starting immediately after completion (rather than a "cooldown" period), and Action Speed just influencing how long an action takes.  Characters standing around staring at each other menacingly was always one of the downsides of the IE's RTwP system.

 

That's actually a nice idea. Maybe split bonuses into half and full.

 

Might +1 Fortitude

Con +2 Fortitude

 

Intelligence +1 Will

Resolve +2 Will

 

Dexterity +2 Reflex, +2 Deflection, +1 Accuracy

Perception +1 Reflex, +1 Deflection, +2 Accuracy

 

Arguably Dex and Per could both affect evasion and accuracy so why not split it. 15 Dex and 15 Per would total +15 Accuracy +15 Deflection which is pretty huge, so the other stats should have as big an impact on combat. E.g. high strength could be a requirement to be able to punch through medium/heavy armor in which case a high Dex/Per finesse type fighter would suffer against heavier armor and/or have the Endurance of a fly. Strength should influence the success of knockdowns and shield bashes and whatnot heavily too.

 

Intelligence is already a dump stat for melee warriors so it would only become more important for everyone if it affected the number of skill points you get.

 

Resolve could play a role for non-casters influencing how much and often they can use active talents (encounter powers) like knockdown or disciplined barrage. A resolute warrior could be more versatile and have more control options and answers for particular situations on the battlefield.


Edited by 1varangian, 20 April 2017 - 06:31 AM.

  • thorbjorn.carlsen likes this

#50
1varangian

1varangian

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 114 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

One more thing:

 

A diminishing returns / point buy system for stats would help a lot if the bonuses become bigger. That would eliminate the problem in my previous post, where maxing Dex and Per could get overpowered. Let's say a stat to 15-16 would cost 2 points and 17-18 3 points like in NWN. Having an even spread of 14's would be very competitive with 18 Dex/Per and 8 in everything else.


Edited by 1varangian, 20 April 2017 - 06:42 AM.


#51
rjshae

rjshae

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4379 posts
  • Location:Seattle, WA
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

 



 



 


 


Your argument applies purely to power gaming. Other approaches that make sense are cases where the player wants to play a particular build that isn't tightly wrapped around that narrow power gaming concept. Let's call it "role-playing". Players do play the game that way, and the attribute system makes it viable.

So in other words: you don't want to play a game, you want to play make-believe. You can do that if you want, but don't expect others to take your views on character building seriously if that is your aim.
There has to be a balance reached between the two. Average player (aka majority) is gonna fall in the middle on this. they want to role play and play a character ideal but still want to be effective, gameplay wise, without having to get too deep into (or worry about) the math and mechanics. My point being, what would be some exceptable middle ground changes that arent pure role play or pure power gaming? Thats where I have a hard time thinking what could be changed to make it better overall.

 

Yes, I tend to build based on the character I want to play rather than for power gaming purposes. My geeky power gaming "munchkin" itch has long since been sated and now I prefer flexibility in design. A less optimal but more interesting character is simply more enjoyable to play.

 

Unless one is playing with an entire party of custom characters, creating your PC purely for power gaming purposes isn't going to make a major difference anyway. You're just one-sixth of a team made up of mostly pre-built, non-optimized characters.

 

 

Right, but this is a forum that largely caters to the power gamers, the people that want to know exactly how things tick.  Going "well I don't want to power game!" here is kind of silly.  Who cares what "average" players want?  Give them an "automatically assign stats" button to go with the "level up automatically" option and they can focus on having fun.  Pathfinder is not somehow hostile to roleplaying and "just want to have fun" players that don't obsess over eking 5% more throughput from their attributes, despite being a "Wizards must have Intelligence" system.  You'd simply have an interface that goes "Strength is necessary for Fighters, Dexterity and Constitution are recommended!" and that would make everything accessible and simple for regular players (along with "suggested feats" buttons like we got in KOTOR 2 etc.)

 

I'm not even talking about min-maxing when I say every build needs Might and Intelligence to be good.  I don't min-max any of my characters.  Doesn't make Might and Intelligence any less dominant.

 

 

No, this is a General Discussion forum. It's entirely appropriate to discuss how supposedly "non-Power Gamers" want to play. How anybody wants to play PoE.

 

You're also completely missing my point. It's about being able to enjoy PoE with multiple different build types, not how do you build the Wizard who can deal the most dps.


  • illathid, draego and tinysalamander like this

#52
1varangian

1varangian

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 114 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Big problem with the attributes as they are is precisely that they don't create different build options because they don't have enough impact.

 

Tweaking your wizard's Might and Int a few points up or down doesn't do anything noticeable so you can't really even talk about builds.

 

A battlemage with melee ability would be an example of a build, but in Pillars it's much more about spell choices. The various and abundant protection spells and Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff or Citzal's Spirit Lance define a battlemage 10 times more than anything you can do with your attributes. As a consequence, all serious battlemages fight with the same weapon which again limits your build choice and versatility.


Edited by 1varangian, 20 April 2017 - 08:10 AM.


#53
rjshae

rjshae

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4379 posts
  • Location:Seattle, WA
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Big problem with the attributes as they are is precisely that they don't create different build options because they don't have enough impact.

 

Tweaking your wizard's Might and Int a few points up or down doesn't do anything noticeable so you can't really even talk about builds.

 

A battlemage with melee ability would be an example of a build, but in Pillars it's much more about spell choices. The various and abundant protection spells and Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff or Citzal's Spirit Lance define a battlemage 10 times more than anything you can do with your attributes. As a consequence, all serious battlemages with with the same weapon which again limits your build choice and versatility.

 

I partly agree in that the attributes could potentially be re-tuned to have a bigger impact, say by doubling all of the modifiers. It's unclear what sort of impact that would have on the game balance though, and it may put in too much incentive to min-max. Personally I'd prefer that they re-work the skills to allow us to better differentiate the characters.



#54
Ninjamestari

Ninjamestari

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 459 posts

Big problem with the attributes as they are is precisely that they don't create different build options because they don't have enough impact.

 

Tweaking your wizard's Might and Int a few points up or down doesn't do anything noticeable so you can't really even talk about builds.

 

A battlemage with melee ability would be an example of a build, but in Pillars it's much more about spell choices. The various and abundant protection spells and Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff or Citzal's Spirit Lance define a battlemage 10 times more than anything you can do with your attributes. As a consequence, all serious battlemages with with the same weapon which again limits your build choice and versatility.

 

The bigger problem is that they tend to balance each other out, so unless you exclusively dump either offensive or defensive stats, they will have little impact on the overall performance. They affect the same things too much. Hell, I'd go so far as having MIG be the stat for melee damage and accuracy, DEX could affect deflection and ranged accuracy, CON does HP, remover PER completely and replace with Willpower to act as the power stat for spells and magic, INT should be the versatility stat (could be renamed Wits), meaning more skillpoints, unlock talents, increased AoE, RES could then handle improving your passive abilities and increasing the duration of both your temporary buffs and debuffs. Fortitude saves would be handled by MIG and CON, Reflex by DEX and WIT, and Will by WP and RES.

 

EDIT: That way all the stats would have definite roles and there would be minimal overlap, and you couldn't really compensate the loss of one attribute by the increase of another.


Edited by Ninjamestari, 20 April 2017 - 08:10 AM.


#55
1varangian

1varangian

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 114 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Intelligence unlocking talents or improved versions of talents is a good idea too so it would be useful for Fighters.

 

Or Int could simply buff martial talents. Knockdown is easier to accomplish if you understand physics.



#56
Fenixp

Fenixp

    (12) Mage

  • Members
  • 1811 posts
  • Steam:Fenixp
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

A diminishing returns / point buy system for stats would help a lot if the bonuses become bigger. That would eliminate the problem in my previous post, where maxing Dex and Per could get overpowered. Let's say a stat to 15-16 would cost 2 points and 17-18 3 points like in NWN. Having an even spread of 14's would be very competitive with 18 Dex/Per and 8 in everything else.

Basically, your suggestion is becoming a "Strength will influence your damage unless you're a mage, then something else influences your damage, but your accuracy is actually influenced by Dexterity and Perception, perception is weaker tho. Oh and 1 point in these stats means a thing, unless they are higher than a <number>, in which case it means a different thing. There are also thresholds that you should know in advance because they unlock yet other things."

And then a wise man will approach you and say:
"1 point in Might will always increase your damage by 3%, 1 point in Perception will always increase your accuracy by 1 and 1 point in Dexterity will always increase your speed by 3%".

One solution is clear and easy to understand. The other is unnecessarily contrived and will have me consulting manual for each use of it. They are both, however, abstractions disconnected from reality.

Edited by Fenixp, 20 April 2017 - 08:22 AM.

  • rjshae, illathid, gogocactus and 2 others like this

#57
Ninjamestari

Ninjamestari

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 459 posts

Intelligence unlocking talents or improved versions of talents is a good idea too so it would be useful for Fighters.

 

Or Int could simply buff martial talents. Knockdown is easier to accomplish if you understand physics.

 

I don't think direct relationship would be that good; after all, knockdown is easier to accomplish if you understand Newtonian physics, but understanding Einsteins theories don't really provide an additional benefit to that.


  • gogocactus likes this

#58
Ninjamestari

Ninjamestari

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 459 posts

 

One solution is clear and easy to understand. The other is unnecessarily contrived and will have me consulting manual for each use of it. They are both, however, abstractions disconnected from reality.

 

 

Strength is a representation of the character's muscle strength. The way might works now is that it just represents a game mechanic (damage), not a trait of your character. If that is unnecessarily contrived to a theoretical individual then might I suggest that said individual would lack the mental capacity to effectively play a game about different characters and complicated tactical combat in the first place. What you're implying with that statement is that you're stupid as ****, which I have a hard time believing due to you playing a game that actually requires a fair amount of intellect to enjoy, and thus I must conclude that this statement is not completely honest.



#59
1varangian

1varangian

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 114 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

 

A diminishing returns / point buy system for stats would help a lot if the bonuses become bigger. That would eliminate the problem in my previous post, where maxing Dex and Per could get overpowered. Let's say a stat to 15-16 would cost 2 points and 17-18 3 points like in NWN. Having an even spread of 14's would be very competitive with 18 Dex/Per and 8 in everything else.

Basically, your suggestion is becoming a "Strength will influence your damage unless you're a mage, then something else influences your damage, but your accuracy is actually influenced by Dexterity and Perception, perception is weaker tho. Oh and 1 point in these stats means a thing, unless they are higher than a <number>, in which case it means a different thing. There are also thresholds that you should know in advance because they unlock yet other things."

And then a wise man will approach you and say:
"1 point in Might will always increase your damage by 3%, 1 point in Perception will always increase your accuracy by 1 and 1 point in Dexterity will always increase your speed by 3%".

One solution is clear and easy to understand. The other is unnecessarily contrived and will have me consulting manual for each use of it. They are both, however, abstractions disconnected from reality.

 

No. Strength would also influence your Mage's damage with weapons and the level of armor he would be able to wear. If you want to be able to fight back when something engages you in melee, put a few points in strength. If you want to be a glass cannon who shatters in melee, ignore Strength. That gives you a meaningful choice that creates a real build option. A choice that does not exist in Pillars because the current system flattens the meaning of stats.

 

Your wise man quote applies exactly to my suggestion so you must have misunderstood something. 1 point in a stat would always give you the same benefit. Just when you assign your attribute points in character creation, the cost increases in steps. NWN point buy system is a good reference because it is balanced and you have to make meaningful choices with your attributes. And it wasn't exactly difficult to understand.


Edited by 1varangian, 20 April 2017 - 10:07 AM.

  • Ninjamestari likes this

#60
1varangian

1varangian

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 114 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

 

Intelligence unlocking talents or improved versions of talents is a good idea too so it would be useful for Fighters.

 

Or Int could simply buff martial talents. Knockdown is easier to accomplish if you understand physics.

 

I don't think direct relationship would be that good; after all, knockdown is easier to accomplish if you understand Newtonian physics, but understanding Einsteins theories don't really provide an additional benefit to that.

 

Lol that's why the "smart Fighter" build could be satisfied at 14 Intelligence instead of buffing it further. :D






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users