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#21
Wormerine

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I would love to see a redesign of the system for PoE2 but I do like underlying ideals. I do like that every class benefits from every stat. I feel like there is more choice now, and when creating new character I think about what I want to be, not what this class needs. Sadly, due to the lower impact of the stats it might be a bit smoke and mirrors. I like how the skills work, but I would like to see more tangible impact from each skill.

 
I just tried working an example. In D&D v3.5, a +2 Con adds a +1 to hp total. For a fighter, a 1d10 hp/level gives an average of 5.5 hp/level. So the +1 hp increases the total for the fighter by about 18% for a +2 Con. In PoE, a +2 Con gives a +10% health and endurance. It's similar for Str and damage: +2 Str increases long sword 1d8 (~4.5) by +1, for a 22% damage bonus. In PoE a +2 Mig gives a +6% damage bonus.
 
To me it looks like PoE has scaled attribute impacts back by roughly half or more. But that may be to balance out lack of level scaling for spell damage, as well as other factors. I think we would need to look at the entire picture.

Now that's a discussion well beyond my knowledge of D&D and game design overall, but now I wonder how much impact attributes should have. Sure, in a classless RPG (like fallout1&2) the attributed define your characters and decide on how you will interact with the world. In a class based RPG how much should they really impact your character? The class already more or less defines your role. The PoE system allows to shift towards certain play styles of said class (focus on DPS, AOE, buffs/debuffs, status effects) but not completely redefine the class.

#22
KaineParker

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The attributes need tweaking and Health, Accuracy, and Deflection should be based more on Constitution, Perception, and Resolve. But the system is decent in theory and wouldn't be improved by spliting magical and physical damage.
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#23
Sedrefilos

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Why fix something that's not broken? Pillars stats is one of the things the game did great, imo. Exemplary to future games of the genre that want to use stats.


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#24
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Hmm, this topic has already been heavily debated with little consensus reached between the two sides.

 

The main concern seems to be that dealing direct damage is the only way to build a good Wizard (or a good Druid for that matter). This is simply a false assertion. However, I do think it's incumbent upon the developers to make it possible to build a Wizard that can inflict direct losses on the enemy forces without the need for a high Might score. That might require things like providing more longer duration spells that apply damage over time. For example, maybe your wizard will need to exchange a Fireball spell for a Pool of Fire spell.

 

Actually, I'd say damage focused Wizards are pretty weak compared to control focused Wizards (particularly early in the game and on higher difficulties where those AOE blinds, confuse, etc just end up having more impact than a Fireball that grazes for 35 damage on a 120 END pool.) That said, even a control focused Wizard will probably want a missiles spell or some other nukes in their active spell lists and will probably be autoattacking at least some of the time... so, you want Might too.

 

You can justify skimping Might on a Wizard, but I can't think of any viable Wizard build that wouldn't invest strongly into Intelligence.  You don't really need extra CON because the returns are so poor, you don't need RES because you can just drink a Spirit Shield potion for a Concentration bonus, and both DEX and PER tend to underperform relative to MIG and INT in terms of combat effectiveness (though both are more valuable than CON and RES.)

 

This actually applies to most characters and most builds.  MIG and INT are simply the strongest stats in the game by a considerable margin and even tanks would be ill advised to skimp on MIG.

 

 



Imo, I really like the direction that Obsidian has gone in. Could they clean or tweak things? Yeah, but I like what they gave us in PoE more than anything we tend to see in traditional attribute systems. Even most modern games don't really manage to get attributes right, despite trying to make them user friendly. Bioware and Bethesda are the low hanging fruit to pick on. But even FromSoftware is plagued with dump-stats, though one might argue that is an intended feature for them.

 

 

I like the concept but it needs a lot of work.  Stats in Pillars don't have enough impact and don't have enough control over important stats.  I'd like to see less emphasis on base Deflection etc and more emphasis on Deflection derived from stats, etc.  A character with 18 RES should be substantially better in the areas that stat controls than a character with 10... but that's not how it works out.  Even MIG and INT, arguably the best stats in the game, have relatively minor differences unless we're talking about a very large delta (like 8 vs 18 or something.)

 

From Software absolutely has dump stats in their games, and it was a very obvious design choice for DS2.  Adaptability had some uses, but was primarily a sinkhole for XP in order to increase the stat you actually cared about, Agility.  It actually worked really well, because it was designed around it from the start.  If you wanted really good rolls with lots of iframes (so your dodge timings didn't need to be precise), you had to "dump" a lot of XP into what you'd probably otherwise regard as a weak stat.  Believe it or not, this design, this intended dump stat design actually created a considerable amount of build diversity.  Someone planning on hiding behind a shield probably didn't need to "dump" XP on Adaptability, but then they wouldn't have an effective roll in the event they run into something they can't easily block their way past.

 



The attributes need tweaking and Health, Accuracy, and Deflection should be based more on Constitution, Perception, and Resolve. But the system is decent in theory and wouldn't be improved by spliting magical and physical damage.

 

Yes.  A Wizard with 18 CON is still incredibly squishy and will still need to rest after a few fights, so why even bother investing the stats there?  You just don't get enough return on your investment into "passive" stats like CON and RES in the current iteration, which is probably why INT and MIG feel so much stronger - who needs defense if they're dead or stunned?

 

 



Why fix something that's not broken? Pillars stats is one of the things the game did great, imo. Exemplary to future games of the genre that want to use stats.

 

These type of threads would not be common if Pillars' system wasn't broken.  It's functional, but that's about the best that can be said for it.  There's clearly a reason Obsidian are putting a sizable amount of effort into tweaking and revamping the character creation system for Deadfire.


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#25
4ward

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^ when i played Pillars with my INT 8 wizard i pretty much steamrolled through the main game (hard/expert mode). Can't tell you anything else about him since i deinstalled the game long ago. I did that because from BG2 i'm used to deal with spells as they are designed and in this kind of game where i can move, reposition and click wherever and where combat is decided in the first few seconds, INT didn't matter to me. I think the attributes are just flavour for the roleplayers in us. It should be mainly about decision-making during combat shouldn't it? My sorcerer didn't care about stats, no stat was important in particular, what i did during combat was what made him viable and fun. I think Obsidian did a good job of keeping that flavour and weakening attributes' impact, it's just that they forgot about the reactivity of BG2 combat. Perhaps, it would be an improvement if attributes would decide on the amount of available abilities and not on their design (effect radius/duration), dunno, just IMO.



#26
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Why fix something that's not broken? Pillars stats is one of the things the game did great, imo. Exemplary to future games of the genre that want to use stats.


 

 

These type of threads would not be common if Pillars' system wasn't broken.  It's functional, but that's about the best that can be said for it.  There's clearly a reason Obsidian are putting a sizable amount of effort into tweaking and revamping the character creation system for Deadfire.

 

These types of threads are common because it's common that some people have very strong opinions about their ideal system (that is as old-school as ADnD most of the times). The team is putting time in perfecting character creation but the stats is not something that will change much (if any), as Sawyer himself mentioned.


Edited by Sedrefilos, 19 April 2017 - 04:15 AM.

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#27
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^ when i played Pillars with my INT 8 wizard i pretty much steamrolled through the main game (hard/expert mode). Can't tell you anything else about him since i deinstalled the game long ago. I did that because from BG2 i'm used to deal with spells as they are designed and in this kind of game where i can move, reposition and click wherever and where combat is decided in the first few seconds, INT didn't matter to me. I think the attributes are just flavour for the roleplayers in us. It should be mainly about decision-making during combat shouldn't it? My sorcerer didn't care about stats, no stat was important in particular, what i did during combat was what made him viable and fun. I think Obsidian did a good job of keeping that flavour and weakening attributes' impact, it's just that they forgot about the reactivity of BG2 combat. Perhaps, it would be an improvement if attributes would decide on the amount of available abilities and not on their design (effect radius/duration), dunno, just IMO.

 

There are plenty of spells available that mostly deal damage and/or have effects that last for a short duration. These are going to be least impacted by a low Int. To me it's mainly a matter of tuning your spell selection to your attributes. Low Mig/High Int: go for Aoe spells with long durations; High Mig/Low Int: targeted spells with short durations; Low Mig/Low Int: maybe jack up your Dex and Per, focusing on rapidly spamming a target with damage spells.


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#28
Ninjamestari

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I would like to se some minor changes in the attributes:

 

Might: Take the "damage dealing for mages" out of might and in to  resolution. This would improve the wizard with less attributes to focus on.

 

Resolution: Take "+ to defence" out and into dexterity. This would improve dexterity.

 

 

Result:

 

Might -> strength (dnd-style). Strength/might would still be very strong.

 

Dexterity: Stronger and more focused.

 

Resolution: Just as strong, but more focused on some classes like wizard.

 

I think this would improve the system  lot.

 

Cheers! :-)

 

This issue keeps coming up, and it's always the same **** (whom I shall not name) that aim to shoot it down. While there are those who genuinely like the system among the defenders, the fact is that most people outside regular forum-goers find this current system to be detracting from the game. I hope Obsidian has the wisdom to recognize the situation and fix the stat system, but I don't know how much faith I can have in them since they didn't have the wisdom to recognize how bad of an idea the current system was in the first place. When people seek to re-invent the wheel, they usually end up just making a retarded pseudo-wheel that is inferior to a proper wheel in every way.



#29
thorbjorn.carlsen

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Ok. Ty for many good thoughts. I still believe that might is to strong and for roleplaying reasons resolve should be something for a wizard to focus on.

 

Still I love the Pillars system. I think its better than DnD, but it isnt perfect. I particulary like the idea that attributes isnt as important as in DnD (f.ex. Baldurs Gate).

 

Resolve should be for wizards and paladins and "mind-strong" characters.

 

When it comes to "dump-stats": The system could punish dumping by giving 0,5 attributes per point removed under 8 or so... Just like "buying" high stats in some systems cost more (17-18 "costs" 3 attribute points..)

 

Anyway, I hope to se some improvements on this. This is definitely the best rpg since the Baahlspawn saga. :-)



#30
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Why fix something that's not broken? Pillars stats is one of the things the game did great, imo. Exemplary to future games of the genre that want to use stats.


 

 

These type of threads would not be common if Pillars' system wasn't broken.  It's functional, but that's about the best that can be said for it.  There's clearly a reason Obsidian are putting a sizable amount of effort into tweaking and revamping the character creation system for Deadfire.

 

These types of threads are common because it's common that some people have very strong opinions about their ideal system (that is as old-school as ADnD most of the times). The team is putting time in perfecting character creation but the stats is not something that will change much (if any), as Sawyer himself mentioned.

 

 

Very stupid.  Maybe the rest of the game will redeem the garbage stat system, then.  It worked for BG2.

 

 

^ when i played Pillars with my INT 8 wizard i pretty much steamrolled through the main game (hard/expert mode). Can't tell you anything else about him since i deinstalled the game long ago. I did that because from BG2 i'm used to deal with spells as they are designed and in this kind of game where i can move, reposition and click wherever and where combat is decided in the first few seconds, INT didn't matter to me. I think the attributes are just flavour for the roleplayers in us. It should be mainly about decision-making during combat shouldn't it? My sorcerer didn't care about stats, no stat was important in particular, what i did during combat was what made him viable and fun. I think Obsidian did a good job of keeping that flavour and weakening attributes' impact, it's just that they forgot about the reactivity of BG2 combat. Perhaps, it would be an improvement if attributes would decide on the amount of available abilities and not on their design (effect radius/duration), dunno, just IMO.

 

There are plenty of spells available that mostly deal damage and/or have effects that last for a short duration. These are going to be least impacted by a low Int. To me it's mainly a matter of tuning your spell selection to your attributes. Low Mig/High Int: go for Aoe spells with long durations; High Mig/Low Int: targeted spells with short durations; Low Mig/Low Int: maybe jack up your Dex and Per, focusing on rapidly spamming a target with damage spells.

 

 

Or: don't skimp on the only two useful stats in the game since there is no build where being deficient in one is better than being good in both.

 

Low might and int - your spells do **** damage (and your auto attacks), have tiny AOE, reduced duration.  Three casts of minor missiles will do about as much damage as one cast from a high Might build.  Three casts of Fireball will do about as much damage and cover as many targets as one cast from a high Might, high Intelligence build.  Oh, you pumped PER instead of MIG or INT, for that pathetic ACC bonus?  Cool, my high INT build just pops a +50% duration Eldritch Aim and has more ACC than your PER build while also having larger spell AOE and duration.  So remind me again why dumping INT or MIG ever makes sense?

 

Seriously - it's not hard to figure this out.  It's kind of crazy how many people are on a board that basically caters to the more dedicated/hardcore players and yet don't seem to even understand the stat system or how character builds work.


Edited by PizzaSHARK, 19 April 2017 - 10:08 AM.

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#31
rjshae

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Why fix something that's not broken? Pillars stats is one of the things the game did great, imo. Exemplary to future games of the genre that want to use stats.


 

 

These type of threads would not be common if Pillars' system wasn't broken.  It's functional, but that's about the best that can be said for it.  There's clearly a reason Obsidian are putting a sizable amount of effort into tweaking and revamping the character creation system for Deadfire.

 

These types of threads are common because it's common that some people have very strong opinions about their ideal system (that is as old-school as ADnD most of the times). The team is putting time in perfecting character creation but the stats is not something that will change much (if any), as Sawyer himself mentioned.

 

 

 

 

 

^ when i played Pillars with my INT 8 wizard i pretty much steamrolled through the main game (hard/expert mode). Can't tell you anything else about him since i deinstalled the game long ago. I did that because from BG2 i'm used to deal with spells as they are designed and in this kind of game where i can move, reposition and click wherever and where combat is decided in the first few seconds, INT didn't matter to me. I think the attributes are just flavour for the roleplayers in us. It should be mainly about decision-making during combat shouldn't it? My sorcerer didn't care about stats, no stat was important in particular, what i did during combat was what made him viable and fun. I think Obsidian did a good job of keeping that flavour and weakening attributes' impact, it's just that they forgot about the reactivity of BG2 combat. Perhaps, it would be an improvement if attributes would decide on the amount of available abilities and not on their design (effect radius/duration), dunno, just IMO.

 

There are plenty of spells available that mostly deal damage and/or have effects that last for a short duration. These are going to be least impacted by a low Int. To me it's mainly a matter of tuning your spell selection to your attributes. Low Mig/High Int: go for Aoe spells with long durations; High Mig/Low Int: targeted spells with short durations; Low Mig/Low Int: maybe jack up your Dex and Per, focusing on rapidly spamming a target with damage spells.

 

Or: don't skimp on the only two useful stats in the game since there is no build where being deficient in one is better than being good in both.

 

Low might and int - your spells do **** damage (and your auto attacks), have tiny AOE, reduced duration.  Three casts of minor missiles will do about as much damage as one cast from a high Might build.  Three casts of Fireball will do about as much damage and cover as many targets as one cast from a high Might, high Intelligence build.  Oh, you pumped PER instead of MIG or INT, for that pathetic ACC bonus?  Cool, my high INT build just pops a +50% duration Eldritch Aim and has more ACC than your PER build while also having larger spell AOE and duration.  So remind me again why dumping INT or MIG ever makes sense?

 

Note: I removed the condescending and insulting statements from your reply.

 

Your argument applies purely to power gaming. Other approaches that make sense are cases where the player wants to play a particular build that isn't tightly wrapped around that narrow power gaming concept. Let's call it "role-playing". Players do play the game that way, and the attribute system makes it viable.


Edited by rjshae, 19 April 2017 - 11:04 AM.

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#32
Messier-31

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Your argument applies purely to power gaming. Other approaches that make sense are cases where the player wants to play a particular build that isn't tightly wrapped around that narrow power gaming concept. Let's call it "role-playing". Players do play the game that way, and the attribute system makes it viable.

 

This.

 

Sometimes I even tend to lower the difficulty a bit so I can make silly builds and roleplay with it.


Edited by Messier-31, 19 April 2017 - 11:14 AM.


#33
1varangian

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I like stats and planning builds but I don't like excessive math or spreadsheets when I'm playing a game. So I would take action speed out of Dexterity. It's an unnecessarily complicated modifier on top of other modifiers. The whole concept of recover time in combat i.e. standing still and waiting for the recovery bar to finish is a dead moment. A much better way is to have the action itself take longer and then let the player do the next action immediately.

 

Removing magical might from Might is something I support fully. I would, however make Might / Strength a more important stat by having heavier weapons and especially armor have strength requirements to use effectively.

 

Stats in general need to matter more in Pillars. That is the system's greatest weakness. You think you are making a character that is really good at stat X but you end up just like everyone else with only a micro modifier to whatever your stat affects. Having a really good stat or a lack thereof doesn't influence your playstyle enough.


Edited by 1varangian, 19 April 2017 - 11:25 AM.

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#34
Ninjamestari

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Your argument applies purely to power gaming. Other approaches that make sense are cases where the player wants to play a particular build that isn't tightly wrapped around that narrow power gaming concept. Let's call it "role-playing". Players do play the game that way, and the attribute system makes it viable.

 

 

So in other words: you don't want to play a game, you want to play make-believe. You can do that if you want, but don't expect others to take your views on character building seriously if that is your aim.


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#35
DigitalCrack

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Your argument applies purely to power gaming. Other approaches that make sense are cases where the player wants to play a particular build that isn't tightly wrapped around that narrow power gaming concept. Let's call it "role-playing". Players do play the game that way, and the attribute system makes it viable.

So in other words: you don't want to play a game, you want to play make-believe. You can do that if you want, but don't expect others to take your views on character building seriously if that is your aim.
There has to be a balance reached between the two. Average player (aka majority) is gonna fall in the middle on this. they want to role play and play a character ideal but still want to be effective, gameplay wise, without having to get too deep into (or worry about) the math and mechanics. My point being, what would be some acceptable middle ground changes that arent pure role play or pure power gaming? Thats where I have a hard time thinking what could be changed to make it better overall.

Edited by DigitalCrack, 19 April 2017 - 01:40 PM.

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#36
rjshae

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So in other words: you don't want to play a game, you want to play make-believe.

 

Huh? Still trying to wrap my head around this surreal statement.


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#37
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Your argument applies purely to power gaming. Other approaches that make sense are cases where the player wants to play a particular build that isn't tightly wrapped around that narrow power gaming concept. Let's call it "role-playing". Players do play the game that way, and the attribute system makes it viable.

So in other words: you don't want to play a game, you want to play make-believe. You can do that if you want, but don't expect others to take your views on character building seriously if that is your aim.
There has to be a balance reached between the two. Average player (aka majority) is gonna fall in the middle on this. they want to role play and play a character ideal but still want to be effective, gameplay wise, without having to get too deep into (or worry about) the math and mechanics. My point being, what would be some exceptable middle ground changes that arent pure role play or pure power gaming? Thats where I have a hard time thinking what could be changed to make it better overall.

 

Yes, I tend to build based on the character I want to play rather than for power gaming purposes. My geeky power gaming "munchkin" itch has long since been sated and now I prefer flexibility in design. A less optimal but more interesting character is simply more enjoyable to play.

 

Unless one is playing with an entire party of custom characters, creating your PC purely for power gaming purposes isn't going to make a major difference anyway. You're just one-sixth of a team made up of mostly pre-built, non-optimized characters.


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#38
1varangian

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Here's my quick take on stats and how I would change them.

 

Might:

 

1) Remove mental strength from Might. There's already Resolve, Intelligence and Perception that cover all aspects of the psychic side better and more convincingly. 3 strictly physical and 3 mental stats is a good balance.

2) Give weapons and armor strength requirements to use. This makes strength useful for any class who wants to melee. Might score would reflect the characters ability in a descriptive way e.g. "he's too weak to wield a proper axe har har" or "she moves like a drunk snail in plate armor"

3) Increase damage modifier to +5% per point but only for those points that exceed a weapons strength requirement, E.g. Sword requires 12 Might to use, 12 Might = 15 dmg, 16 Might = 18 damage.

 

Constitution:

 

1) A major change outside stats but one that affects Constitution's importance would be: Encounter powers have unlimited use but are paid for with Endurance. Endurance regenerates slowly in combat and high Constitution increases the regeneration rate. Constitution is just flat out useful for everyone instead of the bit of a dump stat is currently is in Pillars.

 

2) Since Endurance is now more of a resource in combat rather than just a health bar, add a separate Injury system where getting hit at low Endurance can cause persistent Injuries that impose penalties. High Constitution = high Endurace = harder to injure (unless you exert yourself in combat with too many knockdowns or arcane veils or whatnot.)

 

Dexterity:

 

1) I'd remove action speed from Dex. Action speed is a bit of an unnecessary modifer on top of accuracy vs. defense and dmg vs dmg reduction. It basically adds damage since you attack more frequently, but it's very difficult to know just how effective it is without doing math or spreadsheets which are not fun in a game. Arguably attack speed has more to do with weapon weight and strength anyway.

 

2) Replace action speed with an improved Deflection bonus, +2% per point. Slick evaders and skilled blockers are about speed and coordination, not so much about being strong willed.

 

Perception:

 

1) Remove the Interrupt mechanic as such from the game. Any hit's damage already determines how much of an Interrupt it is. And Perception already makes you more likely to interrupt someone since you are more likely to hit or crit in the first place. Interrupt is another mechanic that was already in the system before it was unnecessarily duplicated. It's confusing, unnecessary and hard to understand how much it really does. Axe it.

 

2) Raise Accuracy modifier to +2 per point. Very useful for everyone. Only use for spells that need to be aimed at a target e.g. rays and single target projectiles.

 

3) Have Perception influence detection skills for secrets, traps and sneaking enemies but still have those abilities as trainable skills.

 

4) Influence the amount of spells a Wizard or any other memorizing caster can memorize instead of the flat 4 per level. (Let's say Perception includes memory, keen senses, sharp mind.)

 

 

Intelligence:

 

Have Intelligence influence the amount of skill points for all classes. Intelligence means ability to learn and adapt which clearly translates to a wider assortment of skills or deep specialization in a particular field.

 

Resolve:

 

1) Remove Deflection bonus from Resolve. You can't will yourself to block an attack if you're simply too slow.

 

2) Encounter powers cost -5% Endurance per point

 

 

I think the entire spell system could use some kind of a reworking on how stats affect spell Accuracy and what the relation between spell-like Encounter powers and actual spells is. Resolve could be used in a will contest for control/mind type effects and their duration while Intelligence could provide general spell potency and Perception could help with spells that need to actually be aimed at someone. Can't get into that now. :)

 

 

What I wouldn't change is how the stats affect Fortitude, Reflex and Will defenses. That's just right.


Edited by 1varangian, 19 April 2017 - 01:55 PM.

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#39
anameforobsidian

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I quite enjoy the stat system.  Attack speed is a goddamn mess, and the game should be better about telling players to stop building tanks.  I have only one change to recommend.

 

Reverse the names for might and intellect.  Have huge, long-lasting spells sounds like more of a might thing.  And it would make sense that high int mages know how to hit where it hurts.  It would improve role-playing for the people who can't get around the idea that super-powered warriors might not be powered by muscles alone; it would let simplistic players who expect mages to be teh best at everything experience high damage rates without getting muscle in their wizard.

 

And everyone could go back to arguing about romances or not enough items or how engagement is ruining America.


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Fenixp

Fenixp

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And everyone could go back to arguing about romances or not enough items or how engagement is ruining America.

As long as Pillars of Eternity isn't a carbon copy of Infinity Engine games, people won't stop arguing about why is that wrong. Obsidian brought that upon themselves by building their KS on IE legacy I suppose.

At any rate, Josh Sawyer seems to listen to arguments, not to how many people are making them - which gives me hope.

Edited by Fenixp, 19 April 2017 - 02:18 PM.

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