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About the Barbarian...

About the Barbarian

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71 replies to this topic

#21
Boeroer

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In terms of CC effects AoE nearly always beats single target though - which makes carnage + on hit/crit effect more effective than single target hit + on hit/crit effect. This is even more crucial if you have spell chances on weapons.

 

With a barb + overbearing weapon you can jump into certain bounties and start hitting - there will be a big chance that you won't get hit at all and can kill everybody without getting interrupted. You can't do that with any other melee class. This walking CC effect is one of the reasons I value barbs. The other are creative and unique abilites like Blood Thirst for example. I mean how awesome is Vengeful Defeat? Kill people around you while going down? Hilarious! ;)

 

By the way: doing a "The Ultimate" run with a dual wielding barb atm. We'll see how it goes. So far I'm at lvl 3 in Anslög's Compass. Didn't have to use pulling, kiting or consumables so far (exception: I lured the trolls to the bandits of Magran's Fork because of this infamous and annoying outlaw who uses Unbending 3 times in a row. ;)).


Edited by Boeroer, 19 April 2017 - 08:11 AM.


#22
firkraag888

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I've tried damage barbs with a reach weapon early to mid game and I'm sorry but they are absolute crap. The damage you deal is a lot but it is eveny thinly spread out amongst whoever is effected by carnage. This results in the enemies just standing around and attacking back for too long.

 

 

That's kind of the the point. The single target damage isn't going to be anywhere near to the Rogue, but you'll probably do way more damage overall with the Barbarian overall than the Rogue. 

 

Let's say you've got 5 enemies, each with 100 endurance, the rogue does 30 each hit and the Barbarian does 20 each hit. After 5 hits the Barbarian will have finished the encounter, whereas the Rogue will have to hit 17 times.

 

Now compare vs a single target with 500 endurance – Rogue takes 17 hits, but the Barb has 25.

 

Each class has different value. The fact that the damage is dissipated over a large number of enemies doesn't make the Barbarian "crappy" vs the Rogue, it's just a different way of dealing damage. 

 

that Is no where near the correct numbers. absolutely no where near,



#23
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+33% damage for the rogue? That's about the difference between an exceptional sabre (+50%) with 15 MIG (+15%) with Sneak Attack (+50 = +115% base) compared to One Stands Alone (= +85% base) with carnage (= +55% base only) I would guess.

 

Sabre's average base damage is 16. So the rogue hits a single target with 34.4 average and the barb hits the initial target for 29.6 avarage and the carnage targets for 24.8 average only.

 

Total damage to 5 enemies after 5 hits (without DR):

- rogue: 172

- barb: 768

 

The higher the DR the better for the rogue.

 

Fine sabre would be:

- rogue: 29.6

- barb: 24.8 initial / 20 carnage 

 

Seem to be pretty near correct, those numbersLivegood188 used as mere examples. Actually they were slightly off in favor of the rogue. At least in a somewhat realistic scenario with auto-attacks.


Edited by Boeroer, 19 April 2017 - 05:32 PM.


#24
Livegood118

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In a more detailed example we'd also have to take in to account that the Barbarian has more ready access to attack speed buffs too (Bloodlust, Frenzy, Blood Thirst). So, a Rogue can reach 0 recovery while dual wielding, whereas a Barb with Frenzy and Bloodlust can get pretty damn close to that with a non Speed Enchanted two hander (meaning, Tidefall or Hours of St. Rumbalt), and also cancel recovery every time they kill a foe. 

 

Also let's not forget that the Barb is vessel slayer in chief once you can equip Ydwen's Redeemer. 



#25
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Just for your information: "The Ultimate" barb (named "Mallet" - guess what his weapons are...) is in Raedric's Castle at lvl 4 and is doing good so far.

 

In the meantime I used some food and potions buffs to beat the Xaurips at Anslög's Compass and also the spores. I don't use random loot tables either. So, no Gloves of Manipulation and no stealthy boots, but 2 rings of deflection.  :getlost: After lvl 5 things will become a bit easier. I don't think I can beat Raedric at lvl 4.

 

I didn't know how superuseful Wild Sprint can be when you're doing ToI. ;)


Edited by Boeroer, 20 April 2017 - 01:12 AM.


#26
Crille

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Ladies ladies Ranged Barbarian is where it's at! just think about it for a moment.



#27
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I did. And although this might be a troll's question, I'll answer still:

 

It's uneffective. Although Frenzy, Bloodlust and Blood Thirst also work with ranged weapons, it's still not good enough to make up for the loss of carnage. And you won't have dmg bonuses that you can use with ranged weapons (except Dangerous Implement and maybe Blooded when you're at 50% endurance and One Stands Alone once you get surrounded - not really convincing). You can achieve impressive rate of fire though.

 

Completed Raedric with the ultimate barb. Had to sneak around a bit. :getlost: Lvl 5 now. Going to Maerwald...



#28
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quick update: ulti-barb killed Maerwald at lvl 5 with the unexpected help of some beetles and is off to Defiance Bay...


Edited by Boeroer, 20 April 2017 - 02:39 PM.


#29
firkraag888

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+33% damage for the rogue? That's about the difference between an exceptional sabre (+50%) with 15 MIG (+15%) with Sneak Attack (+50 = +115% base) compared to One Stands Alone (= +85% base) with carnage (= +55% base only) I would guess.

Sabre's average base damage is 16. So the rogue hits a single target with 34.4 average and the barb hits the initial target for 29.6 avarage and the carnage targets for 24.8 average only.

Total damage to 5 enemies after 5 hits (without DR):
- rogue: 172
- barb: 768

The higher the DR the better for the rogue.

Fine sabre would be:
- rogue: 29.6
- barb: 24.8 initial / 20 carnage

Seem to be pretty near correct, those numbersLivegood188 used as mere examples. Actually they were slightly off in favor of the rogue. At least in a somewhat realistic scenario with auto-attacks.

What formula are you using for carnage damage ?

Carnage is done at negative 34%

Edited by firkraag888, 21 April 2017 - 02:44 AM.


#30
rheingold

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Barbarians are great, and so many ways to build them. They are quite gear dependent though, but fortunately there are some awesome weapons early on for them. They are actually a pretty solid choice even at low levels. A barbarian with Hours of St Rumbaldt or Tall grass is great. And both are available very early in the game. And at high level with Hof and dual wielding axes or sabres they are insane.

Also much of the difficulty in Pillars is related to the amount of mobs in the game. Having a barbarian in the game makes it much easier.

Having a barbarian and chanter is even better, they make a great combination. As does a cipher. Really turns the game into easy mode.



#31
Livegood118

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+33% damage for the rogue? That's about the difference between an exceptional sabre (+50%) with 15 MIG (+15%) with Sneak Attack (+50 = +115% base) compared to One Stands Alone (= +85% base) with carnage (= +55% base only) I would guess.

Sabre's average base damage is 16. So the rogue hits a single target with 34.4 average and the barb hits the initial target for 29.6 avarage and the carnage targets for 24.8 average only.

Total damage to 5 enemies after 5 hits (without DR):
- rogue: 172
- barb: 768

The higher the DR the better for the rogue.

Fine sabre would be:
- rogue: 29.6
- barb: 24.8 initial / 20 carnage

Seem to be pretty near correct, those numbersLivegood188 used as mere examples. Actually they were slightly off in favor of the rogue. At least in a somewhat realistic scenario with auto-attacks.

What formula are you using for carnage damage ?

Carnage is done at negative 34%

 

 

 

Carnage hits get a -34% damage malus, meaning -34% base damage.

 

In the case of a two handed weapon that has 14 – 20 base damage, this means your carnage hits will do between 4.76 – 6.8 (avg 5.78) less damage depending on your roll. An average non-carnage hit vs 0 DR without any damage modifiers and 10 might would be 17.

 

Now let's do an example where the Barb has a few levels on them and is specced for offence with Tidefall which is enchanted with a Lash:

 

Damage Modifier: +48% (26 Might) + 45% (Superb Weapon) + 20% (Savage Attack) +15% (Apprentice Sneak) + 20% (One Stands Alone) +15% (Two Handed Style) = 163% 

14 – 20 * 2.63 = 36.8 – 52.6 = 45 Average Modified Damage

Carnage hit = 14 – 20 * (2.63 -.34%) = 32 – 45.8 = 39 Average Modified Damage

 

Ordinary hit with lashes = 45 + (45*0.25) + (45*0.25*1.48) = 73 average damage vs 0 DR 

Carnage hit with lashes = 39 + (39*0.25) + (39*0.25*1.48) = 63 average damage vs 0 DR

 

If you want to factor in enemies' damage reduction subtract 1.25 DR from the final figures (e.g. Carnage hit vs 15 DR = 63 - 15*1.25 = 63 - 18.75 = 44.25)

 

As you can see in the end carnage hits don't do that much less damage than ordinary hits. Given they have +11 accuracy vs ordinary hits at level 16 with accurate carnage, you're going to be critting a lot with them too, which'll add an extra 11.2 – 16  physical damage on a Durganised Tidefall which will also lead to even more damage from your lashes!


Edited by Livegood118, 21 April 2017 - 08:22 AM.


#32
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What formula are you using for carnage damage ?

Carnage is done at negative 34%

 

I used -30% because I remembered wrongly. I don't think the numbers change significantly when using -34% instead:

 

Sabre's average base damage is 16.

So the rogue hits a single target with 34.4 average and the barb hits the initial target for 29.6 avarage and the carnage targets for 24.8 24.2 average only. 

 

Total damage to 5 enemies after 5 hits (without DR):
- rogue: 172
- barb: 768  753
 
Sorry for the wrong number - but it doesn't make much of a difference as you can see.
 
You have to keep in mind that the -34% is only -34% of weapon base damage, not overall damage. Thus, the malus doesn't hurt a lot after you get some other damage mods like exceptional, MIG, One Stands Alone, Blooded, Heart of Fury and crits.


#33
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Update: The ultimate barb is lvl 8 and just killed the Forgotten. Now I have two Frenzy uses per encounter. ;) Off to Cail the Silent!



#34
Livegood118

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Update: The ultimate barb is lvl 8 and just killed the Forgotten. Now I have two Frenzy uses per encounter. ;) Off to Cail the Silent!

 

What's going to be your strategy for Cail? Hours of St. Rumbalt Prones and Pray? Scrolls? Summons? All of the above?



#35
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Currently I'm using dual war hammers (Shatterstar + Haba's Hammer) I'm combination with Combusting Wounds and Firebrand. Since Firebrand and also Comb. Woumds don't work well against Cail I might enchant a single war hammer to beast slaying + best lash (I guess freeze). Of course I will also use +10 ACC from survival (only need 4 points for that). I did this with several enemies - like the spirits in the light house for example and the Adra Animat when collecting the pieces of the Engwythan Scepter. I could use Jarpie's War hammer for this (bought it in advance). Or maybe I should do the bounty with Drake's Bell first.

I have Blood Thirst. It's quite nice for massive scroll use once you brought the xaurips down in endurance. If one dies from a scroll you can cast the next with no recovery. I didn't use this yet but maybe I have to when meeting Cail.

I will try first with a parallel PotD savegame what approach works best. Maybe it's still too risky to fight and I have to sneak to Tidefall with Boots of Stealth and run away with Wild Sprint. The Forgotten where a bit too dangerous already for my taste. Only had 10 health left when the guy with the Sanguine Plate finally died. Those frickin wizards with their Fetid Caress + Necrotic Lance stuff I swear.

So far no split & pull. But smart positioning and using a pike when somebody weak stays in front of you while the tough guys can't reach you is very helpful. This made the phantoms in the Throne Room easy. I ignored the two shadows that blocked the doorway for me and used my pike + Combusting Wounds on the phantoms.

Edited by Boeroer, 21 April 2017 - 10:11 PM.


#36
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Eh... just 5 minutes ago I found out that Barbaric Blow works with ranged weapons.  :facepalm:


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#37
Livegood118

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You need to get a better laptop so you can start making videos, at least in time for PoE 2  :biggrin:


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#38
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I will! :)

 

In fact I'm buying one of these custom linux computers by the end of June. With an i7-7700K and a Nvidia GeForece GTX 1080. I guess it will cost me about 1,700 €, but at least that should do for the next years...

 

I tried to record something with Kazam while playing PoE a few days ago - but even at lowest settings (which I run anyways) and in light encounters with not much vfx it's a chore. I could lower the resolution though. Maybe I will do that for the later bounty/dragon fights, just to show how the barb holds up. But playing with lower resolution can be tricky, too (blurry, smaller fov and so on).



#39
Natures Bounty

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Update: The ultimate barb is lvl 8 and just killed the Forgotten. Now I have two Frenzy uses per encounter. ;) Off to Cail the Silent!

 

Can you get the Forgotten Quest without picking up Pallegina? Is it sufficient to talk to her after the At all costs quest without picking her up?



#40
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Yes, that's sufficient. You can tell her "Not right now" or something like that and then go to the Vailian Embassy. I killed all official companions so far - I didn't know if killing Pallegina before going to Vincent Agosti would screw up the Forgotten - so I spared her. Until now... ;)

 

I decided to do Heritage Hill before going to Cail. Should give me one more level - to be on the safe side. Heritage Hill is pretty easy at lvl 8. Only encounter that was tough (nearly went toes up) is the Banshee in the crypt (quest "Missing Setries"). And that's because of the constant terrifying so I can't hit sh!t without enough prayers against fear. Even with single exceptional/spirit  hammer. She also has a mean jab and kills summons very quickly... ;)

 

If you ask yourself: "Why does he kill all companions?", well - he's a really mean barb, this one:

 

male_godlike_k_sm.png?dl=1

 

Booh!

 


Edited by Boeroer, 22 April 2017 - 11:06 AM.






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