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Question about Icewind Dale 3


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#1
Andriushka

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Hello, I do not speak English use google translator and my English text may seem ridiculous. My question is - 1) Can I create a topic about Icewind Dale 3 game concept in developer's corner? I want to make a big theme-topic with my desires and the general concept of the game. Write a lot of text and possibly attach an excel file. Add details and change this topic all the time.

And additional questions

2) Why are only a few of the topics on the forum shown, becouse I have few posts?

3) Can you briefly talk about the state of the Icewind Dale 3 concept\development?

4) New RPG games are developed only by the Obsidian team behind closed doors or you can contribute something to the development process from the side of the concept or even the technical part?

5) Is there a ready-made Icewind Dale 3 concept or small team working on now?

6) Who owns the rights to the Icewind Dale game - Black Isle, Obsidian or publisher or someone else?

7) I can not load the BlackIsle.com site, is it normal? It does not exist?

8) Are there many ready-made Icewind Dale 3 concepts on the forum or topics?

9) I did not find a separate tab on the site for Icewind Dale 3, I do on the right forum ask these questions or is there another more suitable place?



#2
algroth

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The the best of my awareness there is no Icewind Dale 3, at least by Obsidian. I believe they've lost the rights to D&D a while ago and so I wouldn't expect any D&D game to come from them soon. The new Black Isle, such as it exists right now, has nothing to do with Obsidian, and failed in its original Kickstarter to even gather the money for its forum (or so I understand, anyhow). There's the occasional post on their Facebook page but they are few and far between and there's very little evidence to indicate there is any legitimate intention on Interplay's behalf to revive the studio (even in brand only).

 

Also you shouldn't expect developers to answer in these forums, some lurk about but they don't really engage too much with the community via these means.

 

For #4 I would suggest looking at some videos on Obsidian's YouTube and some of the posts on their Fig campaign for Deadfire, in those you'll find some reference to the production and so on.



#3
Andriushka

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Ok, thanks for the answer. I did not know that everything is so lost in time and no one needs much. I expected Icewind Dale 3 to appear a long time ago, and even read some news about.

 

1) I always wondered what it means to have the rights to D&D system. This is a game world or a set of rules? And how the developers made Pillars of Eternity? In my view, in Icewind Dale 3 could be a system of combat and gameplay that has changed so much that there can not be any connection with the D&D. But it will also be a game with a choice of classes and throwing a dice. What will happen if someone does something similar, but different in details. How is it possible to have rights to rules of a PC game? And who reveals the differences, if it looks like, but is very different.

 

2) Is it possible to find a team of 15-20 people who will assemble a Icewind Dale 3 test demo-build on unity enigne and prepare it for Obsidian developers? Something very upgraded and changed D&D like from Icewind Dale 1-2 and other D&D games including PoE etc. I like D&D but I do not understand why not to do something similar but no less than the best D&D.

 

3) Is there a team here or somewhere else that is only engaged in the Icewind Dale concept development or playable test-build or it's all only behind closed doors in Obsidian? In my view, it is obvious that the technical part of the new Icewind Dale game is Pillars of Eternity 1 engine-build (2D + 3D characters). In this case for experienced developers there should be no big technical difficulties. But Icewind Dale 3 announcement is nowhere to be seen.



#4
Heijoushin

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Hello Andriushka. Although it makes me sad to say this, there is no IWD3. If you're going to appeal to developers, I'm thinking that Beamdog would be a better bet.

 

That being said, I'm sure the people on this forum would love to discuss a potential IWD3, so why not post it anyway?


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#5
rjshae

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A possibly far fetched scenario would have Beamdog making an IWD2:EE release, then working on a sequel.



#6
algroth

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Ok, thanks for the answer. I did not know that everything is so lost in time and no one needs much. I expected Icewind Dale 3 to appear a long time ago, and even read some news about.

 

1) I always wondered what it means to have the rights to D&D system. This is a game world or a set of rules? And how the developers made Pillars of Eternity? In my view, in Icewind Dale 3 could be a system of combat and gameplay that has changed so much that there can not be any connection with the D&D. But it will also be a game with a choice of classes and throwing a dice. What will happen if someone does something similar, but different in details. How is it possible to have rights to rules of a PC game? And who reveals the differences, if it looks like, but is very different.

 

So, I'm not a lawyer nor am I wholly familiar with the American take on copyright laws (every country has its differences in this regard and whilst I did study some film legislation in uni, I did so based off of Argentina's laws regarding author's rights, which is closer to the French "droit d'auteur" than it is to the copyright law of the US), so I may be wrong here and would gladly stand corrected by any other user, but anyhow... To my understanding, the rights to D&D involve the game world(s), the ruleset, the characters, the stories that were written or made as part of the franchise, and the series that comprise the overall franchise as well. An Icewind Dale game couldn't be done by a company without the license to D&D not least because Icewind Dale is itself a region of one of these game worlds, and property of WotC. Pillars of Eternity is not D&D, even if it does resemble Forgotten Realms in some fashion or other (then again, plenty of standard historical fantasy settings do, and more to the point, this one in particular used the Forgotten Realms games as a template) - you'll see races, creatures and classes that may resemble or even share a common name with the Forgotten Realms equivalents, but the rules, the lore, the specifics to each are all entirely different, it's just its own thing.

 

You can probably do something different but similar so long as you mix things up enough so that it's no longer D&D. That's pretty much the case of Pillars of Eternity, or the likes of Dragon Age and other similar titles for that matter. As to what the cut-off line is, I can't say for sure. But, you know, when you do all this you won't get to an Icewind Dale 3 even if the end result could kinda work that way.

 

 



2) Is it possible to find a team of 15-20 people who will assemble a Icewind Dale 3 test demo-build on unity enigne and prepare it for Obsidian developers? Something very upgraded and changed D&D like from Icewind Dale 1-2 and other D&D games including PoE etc. I like D&D but I do not understand why not to do something similar but no less than the best D&D.

 

I mean, if you can gather 15-20 people to work on Unity and assemble a demo-build for Icewind Dale 3 you can go ahead and do so, but you'll only be able to release the game if you get the rights to D&D and it's up to Obsidian to say whether they are interested in the idea or not. I think you are also perhaps making the mistake here of taking D&D as a style of game more so than a brand, and it's very much the latter. You can by all means make a game in the style of D&D without it being D&D, which is what they did for the likes of Pillars of Eternity or even Tyranny, but these aren't D&D while Icewind Dale is. Chances are that if you have an idea for an Icewind Dale 3 and the manpower and resources to develop a demo-build for that idea, you'd have a better time selling the project by turning it into its own thing independent of the brand or saga, as then you won't require the additional step of getting the rights to the property you're basing yourself off.

 

 



3) Is there a team here or somewhere else that is only engaged in the Icewind Dale concept development or playable test-build or it's all only behind closed doors in Obsidian? In my view, it is obvious that the technical part of the new Icewind Dale game is Pillars of Eternity 1 engine-build (2D + 3D characters). In this case for experienced developers there should be no big technical difficulties. But Icewind Dale 3 announcement is nowhere to be seen.

 

So... I think you're counting on there having been an Icewind Dale 3 in development or conception at some point or another, but even the latter seems dubious. Again, my history on this may be wrong, but based on the interviews I've seen to Josh Sawyer and Feargus Urquhart for example, I get the impression that the Icewind Dale "saga" came about in a rather accidental or opportunistic fashion, and wasn't planned as such in any real way: the first game was essentially Black Isle taking advantage of the momentum caused by Baldur's Gate's success, and make something in a similar style with the resources and properties they had available to them; Feargus came up with the idea of using of the engine and their access to the D&D brand to make a classic dungeon-crawler, and that is how Icewind Dale came to be at the end of the day. Icewind Dale 2, on the other hand, came about in a much more haphazard and rushed fashion, it followed the cancellation of the Torn project and was the result of Black Isle scrambling to get a game together very quickly - thus I don't think it was a "planned" sequel more so than a necessity of the time. With this in mind, and Black Isle's subsequent closure, I doubt there was ever any real proposition for a third part, or even really much of a plan for a *saga* or franchise as such.

 

So, with all this in mind I doubt you'll find much of anything involving an Icewind Dale 3 beyond fan ideas and speculation and so on. Sorry. :(


Edited by algroth, 14 April 2017 - 07:47 PM.

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#7
Andriushka

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this one in particular used the Forgotten Realms games as a template) - you'll see races, creatures and classes that may resemble or even share a common name with the Forgotten Realms equivalents, but the rules, the lore, the specifics to each are all entirely different, it's just its own thing.

Now it is clear, it means it makes sense to write my own Icewind Dale 3 concept. Have at least something.
 

it's up to Obsidian to say whether they are interested in the idea or not

This is a good reason to do something on my part.

 

I think that only Icewind Dale is by itself if it adheres to the rules of the original saga, but it is more convenient than before. Maximum complicated elements and close to throwing dice than other PC games based on D&D like rules. It would be good to have a new RPG game based on the improved old rules, but not circumcision features of the game for the sake of a quick understanding of the rules of this game.


Edited by Andriushka, 15 April 2017 - 02:27 AM.


#8
CrumpetsForBreakfast

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PoE3: TWTW

 

That's where I would place my bet.



#9
Andriushka

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I also think that PoE this is a great game, but it's completely different. This game is not the old game world. Developers can add many sub-classical elements in game, but the game will still be working on modern rails it will not be an "old 2.0 game". A modern game based on old D&D like not equal to new-old D&D like game it is in many ways different things. PoE originally a different game.

 

That's why I think that in the collection of new RPGs should be Icewind Dale 3 (and Icewind Dale saga) based on fully D&D like rules and "dice roll". Because Icewind Dale is kind of an old hardcore RPG action game. Icewind Dale requires the presence of all that was laid in it. Initially in its structure and the world of the game. It is wrong to remove any element from the game, without improving this element or replace for something similar but very close to the original.

 

I mean, to develop an RPG game in snow not equal to develop Icewind Dale 3. PoE is another game and it is unlikely that in the third part someone will return to the old game. But why not make the Icewind Dale saga completely new-old game? Without cutting out the elements, only improvement. All games go in different directions, but there must be a game series (Icewind Dale), remaining full on new-old rails. At least as a globial difference of one RPG games from another RPG games. Leave complicated character customization, 1d8 weapons, 2D environment, solid-improved user interface, partial controlled chaos of possibilities in the game, all that was before and what is added in the new RPG games, but what's right for the Icewind Dale.

 

If developers add 3D scene, then likely game will not look like the continuation of the saga anymore. Of course, with 3D environment the developers can make a very good new game. But it's very difficult to do, part of the game will be lost by default. If they also add a rotating camera they are likely to destroy the world of the game. It is all obvious. Neverwinter Nights is a game where 3D scene must have in the game because the block system of levels. Dragon Age 1 has a low-medium-quality 3D scene, but it does not interfere with the game. And this is not a plus and not a minus. If do 3D scene in Icewind Dale 3 then only have a fixed camera and only 3-5 switchable camera angles on the sides 30-60-90-60-30 without a rotating camera, without approaching or detaching the camera move. It is very important. But who will make the game in 3D scene without camera changing position. 3D environment in games now is marketing part or just a cool game element for the mass player. But I believe it is more difficult to create a good 2D environment than 3D scene where the work is mechanical and in fact no one needs (highmap not look good in 3D scene, objects also require a lot of work for camera move and never look like finished renderers, plus the game requires a lot of computer resources). But yes, with 3D scene in game the massive not RPG player no longer writes a hate comment about the technical side of the game. Therefore, I believe that the alternative to 2D environment is a 3D scene with a fixed camera. In total, use the technical side to make more variability and scene animations, but not to have a "check mark" that a new game in 3D because "3 is more than 2".

 

I also believe that developers can still do a lot new details for fully 2D environment without using 3D scene (except characters and effects). Do 2D+ environment as possible and old gameworld as possible for Icewind Dale 3. And one more reason to do a 2D environment instead of 3D scene - 6 characters closely in 3D scene and instead of 6 characters the developers made smaller number of characters in the party.



#10
CrumpetsForBreakfast

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It wont be the same anymore if you do the "official" route. The rules don't exist anymore and the old setting doesn't exist anymore, both have been dramatically altered, it's centuries in the future after two or three armageddons. It might as well be an entirely new game as PoE.



#11
Andriushka

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The rules don't exist anymore and the old setting doesn't exist anymore

I understand what you mean but no one planned or released new-old 2.0 RPG game, right? New rails are not equivalent to old 2.0 RPG. There is no reason to believe that a new RPGs has a big advantage over the old RPGs only because they are more convenient and more understandable.

 

That's why I want to say that at least one RPG title should be "old 2.0". And Icewind Dale 3 is best suited for this. For this current game title it is mandatory. Neverwinter Nights game was originally different. TOEE is interesting\strange but another game. Dragon Age is absolutely new game. Galdur's Gate is unlikely to look very good with the new-old rules (though the founder), but not Icewind Dale. Yes, Icewind Dale does not have the best sides with role-playing, but this does not mean that in a new game this can not be changed or improved. I even believe that Icewind Dale is underrated game and even more unique than other D&D games. The impression of the game is not less.

It wont be the same anymore if you do the "official" route

The "official" route can also be changed. The "official" route has already lasts from the moment the Icewind Dale 2 was released. This is not a commandment in stone. What is the difficulty of having at least one title of the new-old game in development? When you have the full technical basis (PoE-Unity-SDK) for implementing this. Small budget, long development time, but at least develop the new-old game. I do not know, maybe BG3 is being developed just like that, but hardly Icewind Dale 3. I understand that old games are so epic that it is very difficult to start working on a new-old game, than to do something new. But I for example do not want a new game title or game based on the motives instead of a new part.


Edited by Andriushka, 17 April 2017 - 05:07 AM.


#12
rjshae

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If they are going to develop another game set in the Forgotten Realms, I'd rather see it based in a whole new locale. How about letting us explore Algarond or Chondath, for example?


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#13
Andriushka

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I came to the forum only because of Icewind Dale 3 and the "new-old 2.0" game rules which will have their own special charm of the board D&D like game in conjunction with the Icewind Dale world. Only in this combination I find the continuation of the Icewind Dale. And I want to do something for the theoretical development of this game. I even believe that in the Icewind Dale 3 with the new-old rules should be more shown throwing a dice or an element of an board D&D game than before. At least see the throwing of different dice with a different number of faces. In the old Icewind Dale it was all hidden deep in the game. But in the new Icewind Dale, as in the exclusion from the rules of new developed games, this can be shown openly as PC-board-like RPG game. Without strict compliance the D&D like board game, but shown to a greater extent - in the interface design of the game also.



#14
CrumpetsForBreakfast

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The point is that as far as Icewind Dale is concerned Obsidian doesn't get to make any of those decisions. Wizards of the coast makes those decisions, it should seem beneficial to Hasbro.

 

Currently all the material in both rules and setting is outdated. It is not a question of the newer being better, it is a question of what they're selling now isn't that old stuff.

 

The only way I can see the old stuff getting new life today is because it's incredibly low investment with some returns. People still criticize Beamdog but all things considering I think they're doing pretty good with what they have.



#15
Andriushka

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What's wrong with this option? - developers take D&D like (3.5 or Icewind Dale 2) rules or it's distinctive elements (features of the board game), change in the rules everything they want, make a new PC game with "noname-D&D-like" rules. And developers do not need a new version of the D&D rules.



#16
Fardragon

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They did that, it's called Pillars of Eternity.



#17
CrumpetsForBreakfast

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What's wrong with this option? - developers take D&D like (3.5 or Icewind Dale 2) rules or it's distinctive elements (features of the board game), change in the rules everything they want, make a new PC game with "noname-D&D-like" rules. And developers do not need a new version of the D&D rules.

 

Using the 3.5 rules is free for everyone under the OGL license. A lot of groups have started their own publishing companies and their own products with this license, but you have to follow all the requirements in it. That is what Pathfinder is, but if you look at Pathfinder you will understand some iconic monsters are absent, so is the setting and some of the cosmology. Those are official Wizards/Hasbro identities not covered by the OGL.

 

So you can use 3.5 rules, but you can't associate it with D&D, can't be Forgotten Realms, and you can't call it Icewind Dale. Since Icewind Dale is actually a place in the Forgotten Realms, it's under the product identity license. The same thing is probably why Numenera was called Torment: Numenera instead of Planescape: Torment 2 or Planescape: Numenera, because they can't get a license for the Planescape setting. Plus it's much easier negotiating with Monte than with a room of 20 Hasbro lawyers.

 

So as Fardragon says, their solution is called Pillars of Eternity.



#18
Andriushka

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They did that, it's called Pillars of Eternity

I can not agree with this statement.

can't be Forgotten Realms, and you can't call it Icewind Dale. Since Icewind Dale is actually a place in the Forgotten Realms, it's under the product identity license

Does all this mean that even Obsidian old-rpg developers group can not release a game with Icewind Dale name?

Plus it's much easier negotiating with Monte than with a room of 20 Hasbro lawyers.

Developers who want it will be able to talk even with 40 lawyers. I think that Icewind Dale title is priceless for players who played old RPGs but for business makers this license does not cost anything, rather, it's not worth anything, than something. On the contrary, in the interest of the publisher or Hasbro to donate rights for free and make a new game with the old title. This title will cost something after the release of a new game with this name.

So as Fardragon says, their solution is called Pillars of Eternity.

It's too different to have parallels with the Icewind Dale. My opinion. In this situation it would be interesting, if the complication and expansion of the Pillars of Eternity rules led to the emergence of a game with the old-new D&D-like rules 2.0 and was named Icewind Dale 3. How would it all come back. This is quite possible for one particular game - a deep complication and expansion of the rules, while other new D&D-like games could remain the same or vice versa change even more toward a smaller party with other character management capabilities.

 

I mean, I do not want Pillars of Eternity to only contain all old-rpg's elements. This game should be on par with old games, but do not replace it. No matter how good this game is, it will not replace Icewind Dale.


Edited by Andriushka, 01 May 2017 - 02:30 PM.


#19
CrumpetsForBreakfast

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Yes what it means is they can't use Icewind Dale or anything about it because they don't own it.

 

You might be surprised but ownership of intellectual property can be quite complicated and make things impossible. For example in the movie industry three or more businesses can own the rights to some part of a movie which means they all need to agree to the terms to have a sequel made. So fans and original cast might really want that movie but the companies can't come to an agreement that makes it feasible.

 

Apparently if you've read some Obsidian interviews before they have worked on quite a lot of projects that got cancelled because companies that owned the rights to the property pulled the plug.

 

If you look at the release of regular D&D licensed games, with the exception of mobile games and rereleases of old games, their last game was Sword Coast Legends and before that it was Daggerdale in 2011. Both did very poorly.

 

So the trend would suggest Wizards/Hasbro probably doesn't want to focus on that right now. It's much easier for them to let GOG parcel their old games with an emulator and make a page for that than to fund full production costs of a modern game from scratch.



#20
Andriushka

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So the trend would suggest Wizards/Hasbro probably doesn't want to focus on that right now.

What will the current Wizards/Hasbro owner do with this Icewind Dale license - draw the comics? Why not sell the rights to Obsidian to make a new Icewind Dale 3, but the past games remain in their Wizards/Hasbro property and GOG will also sell old games. Is it possible to do so? Who else can develop a Icewind Dale 3, except Obsidian devgroup with a technically ready SDK for developing. The current moment is most suitable to sell this title to Obsidian, right? I'm more than sure that the current Wizards/Hasbro owners have become such by chance because of many coincidences. They need this license as the fifth wheel of a cart, no?






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