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Cipher Weapons


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#21
dgray62

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Yes, this is why Bittercut and Stormcaller are so good; their corrode and shock damage are boosted by Spirit of Decay and Heart of the Storm, respectively. In fact, these talents boost the damage even when they deal slash or pierce damage. For reasons that aren't clear to me this is not the case with weapons like Durance's staff and Curoc's brand. If I recall correctly Boeroer previously explained in another thread that this is because the elemental damage comes first, i.e., corrode/slash for Bittercut, rather than crush/burn for Durance's staff. So, while Curoc's brand is a great weapon, only its fireball spell will be boosted by Scion of Flame. [Edited for grammar]


Edited by dgray62, 13 April 2017 - 12:28 PM.


#22
Boeroer

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Exactly.

Spirit of Decay also works with Cadebald's Blackbow (corrode) by the way. It's a nice weapon and an "Arcane Archer" can be build around it once you've got it (which is super late I have to admit).


Edited by Boeroer, 13 April 2017 - 01:11 PM.


#23
dgray62

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Speaking of cipher "weapons" and elemental talents, does anyone know if the damage from Antipathetic Field is boosted by Spirit of Decay? I presume that it is, but I've never checked to see if beam spells/powers are boosted by elemental talents.



#24
Boeroer

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They should. It's a bit tedious to test though. You'd have to log the damage it does and see if it exceeds the maximum it would do without Spirit of Decay.



#25
dgray62

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Thanks, Boeroer. I gather that a melee cipher with Bittercut might get some extra benefit from Spirit of Decay, aside from the 20% boost in direct melee damage.



#26
AlexKidd

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Bunch of usefull nerd stuff


Hello. All the PoE2 hype made me pick up this game again and this discussion reminded me to mod and give consistency to these double damage type weapons. If I wished to make all these weapons act as elemental(1st)/phisical(2nd) to better benefit from Spirit of # feats (and probably a reverse option to nerf them all once I realize they're OP :p ), what's left to 'fix' other than Durance's Staff?


UvlpEW8.png


Also, any thought about the strenght of the greatsword Justice (that I am thinking to just mod to deal bludge/slash instead of pierce/slash)? I am not sure how the +10%+25% bludge dmg is applied, and if it's useful against high DR foes.

#27
Boeroer

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Hi. Nice mod.

The things I know of that have the "wrong" order of damage types are Curoc's Brand, Durance's Staff as well as Prestidigitator's and Minor Missiles (crush/corrode). Can't say if there are more though. Torches maybe?

I really dislike it that Durance's Staff is crush/burn instead of burn/crush. There aren't a lot of nice staffs in the game anyway and this would make quarterstaffs a bit more interesting.

About Justice: it has two crushing lashes as far as I can tell from testing. The 10% lash will often be eaten up by DR and you don't see it then in the log. But if you have somebody with high dmg mods and crit potential like a rogue or a cipher for example, you can witness it quite often. 10% lash is really weak though. In order to get past 12 crush DR you'd have to deal 35 pierce or slash with your initial roll - and then only 1 point of the 10% crushing lash would make it through while the 25% lash will deal 6. So - it's great against foes with low DR (esp. crush) and bad against high DR.

Torches have the same mechanic, but with a burning "mini" lash. You can put another lash on them and then they also have two lashes. Due to the lower base damage of torches the mini lash gets eaten up by DR most of the time.

Here one can see why single higher lashes are much better than multiple lower ones. And why it can be better to take Scion of Flame only in order to boost a burning lash on your weapon from 25 to 30% rather than having a 10% + 25% lash - and also better than to take Savage Attack or Apprentice's Sneak Attack or other low base-damage mods in some cases.

Edited by Boeroer, 13 April 2017 - 09:32 PM.


#28
AlexKidd

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Ugh two mini lashes :( I totally forgot about torches, and how badass is Calisca fighting with them :) Shame there's no unique one nor enemies fighting with them (I think) or I'd feel compelled to make them burn/bludge as well.

In order to make this semi-relevant to the cipher topic... there's no MIN dmg for lashes right?

So stuff with a 10% lash (thinking about Starcaller and Unforgiven flails - btw, both 10% fire? boooring) is only useful against very low DR (but then, pretty much everything works, and a blunderbuss works best) even with all soul whip mods. I was thinking flails with graze->hit conversion would have been an ok option in potd when you're done milking the fodder for focus with your estoc (wf: adventurer) and it's only bosses with high stats left.


Edited by AlexKidd, 14 April 2017 - 06:23 AM.


#29
MasterCipher

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After learning about the curoc wand shortcoming, I'm finally on team Bittercut - plus I couldn't fit all the enchantments I wanted on any ranged weapons. But if you want to go ranged, I'd recommend Stormcaller.

 

This is a mix/max damage/focus/control/buff build that unabashedly taps into Cipher OP potential.

 

Human

 

MIG 20

DEX 18

CON 3*

INT 18

PER 15

RES 4

 

*Yes, even on a padded wearing melee because you should be meleeing from the outside of your tank and disable before destroy. Nonetheless, priest & druid can AoE buff stack +12 DR every encounter, so with the gear below you can hit 30 DR vs slash. Also, you can give your chanter field triage and lastly, there's 2 CON food a +5% endurance talent for MC 2 MIG/CON brothel buddy. While there's only a 1 in 6 chance, wild leech can give you +10 CON.

 

focus whip

damage whip

20% corrode talent

duel wield

apprentice sneak attack

vulnerable attack

savage attack

 

10 focus: confuse (abusive way to start fights), charm, mindwave, eyestrike, antipathic beam (good damage in its own right, but also increases other beam damage)

20 focus: mental binding, phantom enemies, recall agony (awesome on paper, but mostly just for bosses because everything dies too quickly)

30 focus: ectopsychic crush (supremely lethal) , pain link

40 focus: pain block, stun + raw AoE damage (bread and butter), wild leech (I think you can still cast on your own party summons and have them watch from behind), mind lance (quick finisher), go between

50 focus: tactical meld, detonate (very high AoE crush damage on explode - not sure if explosion still gives you focus back), borrowed instinct

60 focus: mind plague, amplified wave

70 focus: time parasite (you already hit 0 recovery with Outlander's frenzy but this is good when it when that wears off), stasis

80 focus: reaver blades (put this on your barbarian and you can't spend focus fast enough), defensive mindweb (an I win button)

 

x2 Bittercut legendary with corrosion lash/Twinsting

2 PER, 0.1 flank damage padded armor with retaliate

3 MIG helm with retaliation

2 INT focus neck

3 DR bypass, 5 DR v slash, and 5% miss to graze conversion gloves

1.8 movement when health above 75% and +21 interrupt when below belt

ring with the 1 use per stronghold turn buff and passive overseer

3 DEX 5 reflex 20 def v stun+prone ring

beam proc boots 1/encounter when crit

 

If MC: donate Devil to the blood pool, 0.3 crit faction talent, 1 MIG boon talent, 3 MIG stronghold rest, 2 MIG + 2 CON brothel buddy, 1 PER quest talent, 1 PER + 1 INT + 1 RES quest talent, 0.1 crit quest talent


Edited by MasterCipher, 14 April 2017 - 04:14 AM.


#30
dgray62

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I'm personally not comfortable with MIN/MAX builds. If one doesn't drop CON and RES so much, how does the following stat spread look for a melee cipher?

 

MIG 18

CON 8

DEX 16

PER 10

INT 18

RES 8

 

I usually play on hard difficulty, so I don't think I need PER about 10. Any suggestions would be most welcome.



#31
Boeroer

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Right: lashes have no MIN damage and will deal zero damage if 1/4 of the corresponding DR is too high.

DR bypass is ignored by lashes. So Penetrating Shot or Vulnerable Attacks Ryona's Vambraces and also rending don't do anything for your lashes (this is why blunderbusses with lashes are bad even if you stacked a lot of DR bypass).

If you can lower enemies' DR directly (Stormcaller, Expose Vuln., Hel-Hyraf, Sever the Soul, Body Attunement and so on) this is the best way to get focus out of lashes. With this "trick" it's also possible to get good focus out of Justice's double lash.

Because elemental lashes do generate focus. The crushing ones also do. Wounding however does not. It works like a lash when it comes to appliance, but it's a DoT effect. Those never generate focus.

@dgray: stats look fine. If you're about to use more CC/disable a than damaging powers then I would put more points into PER and less into MIG. If you want to use Veteran's Recovery then keep high MIG.

Edited by Boeroer, 14 April 2017 - 08:21 AM.

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#32
MasterCipher

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Is all elemental weapon damage considered a lash? Is the base damage of Bittercut's corrode/slash considered a lash too, or just the 25% weapon enchantment, chanter chant, and Flames of Devotion? If so, vulnerable attack won't make much sense for me, since I don't get hit enough for retaliate focus.



#33
Boeroer

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Retaliation doesn't generate focus anymore.

Bittercut's base damage is not a lash. It's the usual, direct damage.

Lashes are:
- Wildstrike
- Greater Wildstrike
- Wildstrike Belt
- enchantment lashes on weapons (burning lash etc. also crushing lash)
- Flames of Devotion
- Intense Flames
- Remember Rhakan Field
- Turning Wheel
- Torment's Reach (+50% crushing lash on initial target)
- Lightning Strikes
- Myth Fyr chant
- Blood Testament gloves

and maybe Recall Agony (not sure, but I saw some strange behaviour around focus generation when using this). Maybe I forgot something else.

Vulnerable Attack for cipher makes sense if you are using weapons with low damage per hit. Usually those weapons are relatively fast (except blunderbuss and Golden Gaze). For other setups it's not too useful most of the time.

Edited by Boeroer, 14 April 2017 - 02:34 PM.

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#34
MasterCipher

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Thank you Boeroer. I feel like I need a tutorial in lashes. The negative is that there is no minimum damage so they can be totally reduced to 0 by DR. However, I vaguely recall strength and damage modifiers somehow benefit them more than base weapon damage.



#35
Livegood118

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Thank you Boeroer. I feel like I need a tutorial in lashes. The negative is that there is no minimum damage so they can be totally reduced to 0 by DR. However, I vaguely recall strength and damage modifiers somehow benefit them more than base weapon damage.

 

It's a combination of both. What you want to aim for when using lashes is as much damage before DR is taken in to account as you can get.

 

So let's say you had a Monk with 10 wounds using Torment's reach with Turning Wheel, Lightning Strikes, a Weapon Lash and Scion of Flame + Heart of the Storm using a sabre with a 100% damage modifier:

 

11 – 16 * 2 = 22 – 32, average hit = 27

Unmodified damage before DR = 27

TR = 27*0.5 vs .25 DR = 13.5 vs 0 DR

TW = 27.5*0.6 vs .25 DR = 16.5 vs 0 DR

LS = 27.5*0.3 vs .25 DR = 8.25 vs 0 DR

WL = 27.5*0.3 vs .25 DR = 8.25 vs 0 DR

= 73.5 damage vs 0 DR

vs other DR = 73.5 - DR2

@10 DR = 73.5 - 20 = 53.5

@20 DR = 73.5 - 40 = 33.5

 

Now, let's take a more optimised example of a Monk with the same skills/talents set-up but damage mod 24% (Base Might) + 24% (extra might) + 15% (Apprentice Sneak) + .45% (Superb) +.2 (Sabre) +.2 (Savage Attack) = 1.48, who lands a Crit with an annihilating durganised sabre with the Doemenel talent

 

11 – 16 * 2.48 = 27 – 40, Average Hit = 33.5

Crit Mod = 0.5 (Base) + 0.5 (Annihilating) + 0.3 (Durgan) + 0.3 (Doemenel Talent) = 1.6

11 – 16 * 1.6 = 17.6 – 25.6, average from crit  = 21.6

Unmodified damage before DR = 33.5 + 21.6 = 55

TR = 55*0.5 vs .25 DR = 22.5 vs 0 DR

TW = 55*0.6 vs .25 DR = 33 vs 0 DR

LS = 55*0.3 vs .25 DR = 16.5 vs 0 DR

WL = 55*0.3 vs .25 DR = 16.5 vs 0 DR

= 143.5 damage vs 0 DR

vs other DR = 143.5 - DR2

@10 DR = 143.5 - 20 = 122.5

@20 DR = 143.5 - 40 = 103.5

@30 DR = 143.5 - 60 = 83.5

 

– The higher your modified damage before DR, the stronger your lashes will be (crits get factored in to this)

– Lashes can indeed get eaten by DR

– All lashes (other than wounding or other sources of raw lashes which work against 0 DR) work against .25 DR, meaning you get more bang for your buck vs DR when your lash% is greater than .25 

– Investment in elemental talents (e.g. Heart of the Storm) will increase the corresponding damage of lashes, such that a .25 lash becomes a .3 lash and a .5 lash becomes a .6 lash


Edited by Livegood118, 14 April 2017 - 04:32 PM.

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#36
firkraag888

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After learning about the curoc wand shortcoming, I'm finally on team Bittercut - plus I couldn't fit all the enchantments I wanted on any ranged weapons. But if you want to go ranged, I'd recommend Stormcaller.

This is a mix/max damage/focus/control/buff build that unabashedly taps into Cipher OP potential.

Human

MIG 20
DEX 18
CON 3*
INT 18
PER 15
RES 4

*Yes, even on a padded wearing melee because you should be meleeing from the outside of your tank and disable before destroy. Nonetheless, priest & druid can AoE buff stack +12 DR every encounter, so with the gear below you can hit 30 DR vs slash. Also, you can give your chanter field triage and lastly, there's 2 CON food a +5% endurance talent for MC 2 MIG/CON brothel buddy. While there's only a 1 in 6 chance, wild leech can give you +10 CON.

focus whip
damage whip
20% corrode talent
duel wield
apprentice sneak attack
vulnerable attack
savage attack

10 focus: confuse (abusive way to start fights), charm, mindwave, eyestrike, antipathic beam (good damage in its own right, but also increases other beam damage)
20 focus: mental binding, phantom enemies, recall agony (awesome on paper, but mostly just for bosses because everything dies too quickly)
30 focus: ectopsychic crush (supremely lethal) , pain link
40 focus: pain block, stun + raw AoE damage (bread and butter), wild leech (I think you can still cast on your own party summons and have them watch from behind), mind lance (quick finisher), go between
50 focus: tactical meld, detonate (very high AoE crush damage on explode - not sure if explosion still gives you focus back), borrowed instinct
60 focus: mind plague, amplified wave
70 focus: time parasite (you already hit 0 recovery with Outlander's frenzy but this is good when it when that wears off), stasis
80 focus: reaver blades (put this on your barbarian and you can't spend focus fast enough), defensive mindweb (an I win button)

x2 Bittercut legendary with corrosion lash/Twinsting
2 PER, 0.1 flank damage padded armor with retaliate
3 MIG helm with retaliation
2 INT focus neck
3 DR bypass, 5 DR v slash, and 5% miss to graze conversion gloves
1.8 movement when health above 75% and +21 interrupt when below belt
ring with the 1 use per stronghold turn buff and passive overseer
3 DEX 5 reflex 20 def v stun+prone ring
beam proc boots 1/encounter when crit

If MC: donate Devil to the blood pool, 0.3 crit faction talent, 1 MIG boon talent, 3 MIG stronghold rest, 2 MIG + 2 CON brothel buddy, 1 PER quest talent, 1 PER + 1 INT + 1 RES quest talent, 0.1 crit quest talent

What difficulty are you playing on? You would be absolutely insane to dump CON to 3 points on POTD for a melee cipher. Completely insane. At starting levels I wouldn't dump res to 3 either , perhaps reroll and dump to 3 at later levels when your deflection is high enough.

Min maxing is over rated and not needed. You need max intelligence and perhaps dexterity on a cipher nothing else

You roll ciphers for three reasons: amplified wave, time parasite and defensive mindweb. Build you cipher to get the most out of these powers. They are game changers that other casters can only dream about.

Edited by firkraag888, 16 April 2017 - 06:58 AM.


#37
Boeroer

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In my opinion you roll a cipher for good weapons damage + mind control. The rest that comes later is only bonus and not really crucial - because who will challenge you anyways when your party is lvl 13+?. But mind control at such early stages in the game and with such good accuracy is invaluable.

3 CON on a melee cipher can work - however, it would be too much of a hassle for me.

Edited by Boeroer, 17 April 2017 - 09:21 AM.


#38
firkraag888

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^^^^**

For players like us who have done 1000+ hours of game play yes the late levels become to easy and boring but for newbies they would definitely find it a challenge.

And those powers arent that late game they get wave at level 10 I think, parasite 12 and web 14.

But yeah they do good weapon damage meanwhile. It's a pity you can't buff yourself much as a cipher. Hope they fix that in deadfire

Edited by firkraag888, 17 April 2017 - 04:33 AM.

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#39
MasterCipher

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POTD is the only difficulty I've ever played, typically full hireling parties. When I first started, I tried high RES and CON builds, but now I only put CON on my Barbarian. I actually like to micro status afflictions. Opening with confusion, right angle pulling, disabled monsters, and the occasional summon sponges = not much incoming damage.



#40
smjjames

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After reading that the Ciphers have a LOT of gameplay to them (don't know if more than the others), I've been thinking of rolling a cipher (maybe wood elf, not sure) with a scientist background (why is that background only in 'living lands'? The animancers are basically scientists too, though more in the way alchemists are scientists than real world science) which uses ranged weapons. I've also found that the dominate ability is pretty potent, heh. It's less of a min/max build and more of a RP build, but I'd like to be able to get the most out of it as I can.

 

However, I'm not sure what weapon, ranged or otherwise, and YES, I know what thread this is, lol.

 

I would prefer ranged, but this is going to be a high int and per build, so, I dunno.


Edited by smjjames, 18 April 2017 - 03:33 PM.





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