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Neverwinter nights


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#1
deanwilkinson20

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I wasnt sure where to post this however after your recent success with bringing back some of the nostalgics of the old time rpgs would you ever consider a neverwinter nights 3 or a kickstarter thats dnd?  I remember playing nwn 1 especially for like 5 years and to this day i remember it to one of my faves of all time  and neverwinter nights 2 for sometime.  thanks

 

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#2
Heijoushin

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^--- I love people who directly address the devs. (I'm afraid they don't respond much on the forums)

 

I also love NWN. But since Obsidian now has their own DnD-esque setting in the form of Pillars, I can't see that they'll go through all the legal hoops just to get another (arguably similar) DnD game. All their creativity and resources will probably go to Pillars.


Edited by Heijoushin, 01 April 2017 - 05:18 PM.

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#3
Madscientist

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I did not really like NWN1.

NWN2 was much better (though buggy) and MotB had one of the best stories ever.

 

I think the most importent selling point for those games was the ability to create your own maps, items and classes with the modding tool.

Some people have created very good games with those tools.

 

At the moment they work one PoE2 which will be single player only.

But I would be happy about a new game where you can make your own games easily.

The setting does not matter much (Eora, DnD, Numenera, . . . ) because you can create it yourself :w00t:

The game gives you the basic rules and the tools to create own things.

Imagine a game with the PoE rules set in stone age or outer space. Round grey aliens worship godlikes as their gods :bow: :alienani: (sorry, those smileys just inspired me)

 

PS: I think all games I know who allow you to create an own map where either similar to the RPG maker or they were a full 3D environment.

Does a tool exist that allows you to make a 2D real time with pause RPG like BG yourself? (No need for great visual effects, BG1 style is enough).

The hardest part would be painting your own map. I am a terrible artist, but some people might create something great.

Or you copy the maps of BG2, but each door is connected to a different location than you are used to and the entire world is inhabited by xaurips.



#4
Guard Dog

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NWN had one thing going for it: mods. It was a modders paradise and we ended up with hundreds of hours of high quality gaming time because of it. We also had thousands of hours of nit so good gaming time because only one in every ten was any good. If you only played the boxed campaign you were likely disappointed because it was terrible. The two expansions were better though. NWN2 was an improvement in that the story was much better and the game looked nicer. But it was still bound hand and foot to the D&D canon and therein lies the problem. THAT isn't that good.

When a company makes a game based on their own IP the result is usually much better. I though PoE was simply outstanding as far as the quality of the story goes. But the Obsidian guys usually crank out the best dialogue and story-lines. If KOTOR II had been made thy way they wanted to make it is would have been the best SW game ever. FONV was the best FO title since FO2 I think.

I'd rather play an original IP than another continuation of someone else's license.


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#5
Volourn

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NWN = DA BEST GAME EVAR.

 

'Nough said.

 

NEXT.


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#6
Guard Dog

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You have a framed picture of Aribeth on your wall don't you? Admit it! :lol:


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#7
Darkpriest

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NWN was a game one of a kind. NWN2 had improved SP aspect of it, but unfortunately the MP aspect suffered heavily. NWN was MP paradise - I've spent YEARS in the MP with some of the most memorable RP action and a handful of real great worlds. It is still available, although the only one i recall beign on a decent+ level and still working is Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist.

 

Other great worlds vanished - some tried to port to NWN2 but it seems all eventually died there :(



#8
Amentep

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The likelihood of a licensed DnD game being kickstartered has to be fairly low, I think.



#9
CrumpetsForBreakfast

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People bring up Obsidian making a new NWN successor often but realistically I don't think experience shows that they are a company focused on modding. Bioware and Bethesda games are known to be more modding friendly but Obsidian makes games like Pillars of Eternity with technology that doesn't lend to a lot of modding.

 

A friend of mine told me that NWN was a perfect storm for that kind of game that wont be repeated. I'm inclined to think that might be true especially for a commercial game with a product license. I think it's possible future Obsidian might make something that has modding like Elder Scrolls or Dragon Age but not like NWN.

 

Pathfinder is interesting because it uses the OGL license which is public and free for anyone to use commercially or privately as long as you comply with the terms. Paizo owns the Pathfinder brand, the setting Golarion, and various product identities not released under the OGL. So it would effectively be two licenses, one public from Wizards of the Coast that every derivative work has, and one private from Paizo.

 

Some indie games just use the OGL license by itself so I guess anyone can do it for free as long as they follow the letter of the law. Some things have Wizards of the Coast copyrights like Forgotten Realms, Neverwinter city, Drizzt, Planescape, The Great Wheel cosmology, Mind Flayers, Beholders, some other monsters, the exp amount rewarded per monster. Not even Pathfinder can include those things legally, it has to be an official D&D brand licensed product to use any of that.


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#10
Madscientist

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Like I said, I do not care if it is DnD or another system as long as we get a good game.

NWN1 and 2 were 2 completely seperate games that where set in the same universe, used a similar rule set (DnD 3 or 3.5) and where modder friendly.

I would be very happy if they make a new game with a great single player story ( I never did multi player) and if they add a modding tool that allows you to create maps yourself and has multi player it would be even greater. If I get that they can call it PoE3, NWN3, arcanum 2, fallout 10 or whatever they want.

 

DnD (or anything else) is just a set of rules. What you make of it is up to your own imagination (or the imagination of the devs in case of a computer game). If the devs use their own IP, they can make the rules themselves and they donĀ“t have to pay anyone for a licence.



#11
rjshae

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PS: I think all games I know who allow you to create an own map where either similar to the RPG maker or they were a full 3D environment.

Does a tool exist that allows you to make a 2D real time with pause RPG like BG yourself? (No need for great visual effects, BG1 style is enough).

The hardest part would be painting your own map. I am a terrible artist, but some people might create something great.

Or you copy the maps of BG2, but each door is connected to a different location than you are used to and the entire world is inhabited by xaurips.

 

One possibility would be to create a highly detailed 3D map in NWN2, then use some type of software interface to scan it into a 2D image for an isometric game like ToEE or BG2. Perhaps this will become possible with Xoreos?



#12
CrumpetsForBreakfast

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If you don't have complete adventure creation, multiplayer, DM/GM client, server, scripting language, and suite of tools to easily replicate table top games graphically in 3D then it's not an NWN game or an NWN spiritual successor.

 

If you don't want any of that stuff or never used it or cared for it then Pillars of Eternity or Tyranny can be your "NWN" sequel because they're good single player stories. If people want Pillars to allow modding that's still not the same as what NWN provided but it might be interesting none the less. Doing multiplayer in Pillars would be interesting too.



#13
RangerSWG

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People bring up Obsidian making a new NWN successor often but realistically I don't think experience shows that they are a company focused on modding. Bioware and Bethesda games are known to be more modding friendly but Obsidian makes games like Pillars of Eternity with technology that doesn't lend to a lot of modding.

 

A friend of mine told me that NWN was a perfect storm for that kind of game that wont be repeated. I'm inclined to think that might be true especially for a commercial game with a product license. I think it's possible future Obsidian might make something that has modding like Elder Scrolls or Dragon Age but not like NWN.

 

Pathfinder is interesting because it uses the OGL license which is public and free for anyone to use commercially or privately as long as you comply with the terms. Paizo owns the Pathfinder brand, the setting Golarion, and various product identities not released under the OGL. So it would effectively be two licenses, one public from Wizards of the Coast that every derivative work has, and one private from Paizo.

 

Some indie games just use the OGL license by itself so I guess anyone can do it for free as long as they follow the letter of the law. Some things have Wizards of the Coast copyrights like Forgotten Realms, Neverwinter city, Drizzt, Planescape, The Great Wheel cosmology, Mind Flayers, Beholders, some other monsters, the exp amount rewarded per monster. Not even Pathfinder can include those things legally, it has to be an official D&D brand licensed product to use any of that.

 

 

Essentially this is what I would say as well. NWN out of the box was mediocre. But NWN with the Aielund Saga, Swordflight, the Kosigan series, Thain, Ravenloft: Prisoners of the Mist, and other high quality SP and MP FREE downloads was a treasure. NWN2 did not succeed to that degree, IMHO, because it was painful to mod in compared to NWN1. I also have a hard time ascribing 'good campaign' to the NWN2 OC. Parts of it were every bit the slog the NWN1 OC was. Hordes of the Underdark was a good XP. Mask of the Betrayer is the only reason to play NWN2, IMHO. But neither would have the lifespan that Morrowind had, (and indeed, both were inferior to what is, IMHO, the best of the ES games by far), if not for the modding community.

 

I have a hard time believing any major studio today would hand players a kit as simple, powerful, and accessible as the NW Toolkit today. I don't think Atari would have THEN if they had known how much gameplay was going into FTP resources. Even the Bethsoft kits, as frequently lauded as they are, only work within the basic framework of the existing game. None of them allow the kind of open creation flexibility the NWN kit provided. And anything that didn't have that as an intrinsic aspect of the product would be the cheapest of cash grabs. 



#14
rjshae

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NWN2 did not succeed to that degree, IMHO, because it was painful to mod in compared to NWN1.

 

Well, over the years a lot of fallacies have been ascribed to NWN2, and this is one of them. For example, pretty much any model in NWN can be ported over to NWN2, then further improved. Both games use many of the same scripts plus 2da files for data storage. The main headaches with NWN2 is the extensive use of placeable models and the flexible exterior area building tool. Both are powerful methods, but much more labor intensive than in NWN. Beyond that, the two games are not that different from a toolset perspective.

 

Once you're over the learning curve (and both NWN and NWN2 have one), it's just not that difficult to create models for NWN2. I've built and ported many myself.  Meanwhile, NWN can't support the textures sizes and poly counts that NWN2 can, and with NWN2 you get normal mapping, LoD, and tinting capabilities. This (and many other reasons like full party control) is a big reason why it made sense to port  games like Baldur's GateBaldur's Gate 2, and Icewind Dale to NWN2.


Edited by rjshae, 06 April 2017 - 10:05 PM.

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#15
Guard Dog

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For me the hardest part of NWN2 toolset was the heightmapping for the exterior areas. Interiors used tilesets like NWN1 and were much easier. But like rjshae said it was just about learning how. The thing that botheres me most about NWN2 mods though was the voice, or lack of it. NWN1 was the last of the text dialogue games really. And in NWN1 it was not terrible disruptive to read text in game. With NWN2 the game camera zooms in on the characters speaking and doing that text only just didn't look good. It looked fine when there was actual VO.

 

Just my $0.02.



#16
CrumpetsForBreakfast

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rjshae it's not a fallacy but it's very nuanced, NWN2 has newer graphics but that's where it stops and everything else is worse for modding.

 

If you think you can make a way to port all of the customization options in NWN over to NWN2 then go ahead you will be a hero for solving such a big issue. Characters in NWN2 have much fewer color channels and every outfit in NWN2 is what is called a robe in NWN which eliminates customization for each body part. NWN also had much more character animation mods because of how simple it was, different combat and walking styles too. The animation mod pack that NWN2 has are creepy and uncanny valley "intimate poses" by someone that obviously never had any experience or artistic feeling for it, so obviously something went wrong. If it was so easy why did nobody do better?

 

NWN also has mounts, mounted combat & ride skill, including horse mounts, spider mounts, monster mounts, dinosaur mounts, drawn carriage mounts. NWN2 only had horse mounts but they were never properly finished or animated properly.

 

NWN2 never got more new wing or tail types while NWN mods added infinite amount of tails, infinite amount of wing variations. That also includes mods for flying animations in NWN which don't exist in NWN2.

 

Also the tools you need for NWN2 animations are proprietary and costed thousands of dollars and aren't remotely available anymore but the tools that work with NWN are still functional and free.

 

NWN2 has things like bumpmaps and tintmaps but ultimately fewer options and harder to mod, so it's just more complicated.

 

As for building areas in NWN you could build an area in less than 10 minutes, the variations around each tile were automatically generated unlike NWN2 but you could use tools to change that if you like.

 

NWN2 has graphical superiority over NWN on account of the first game being made in the late 90s before modern graphics hardware existed. Other than that NWN is a modding paradise but NWN2 is extremely restrictive in comparison. Many NWN modders tried NWN2 and then went back when they found out the restrictions.

 

It's like the NWN2 modding community is still playing catchup with NWN's first or second year so it can't be that great.

 

 



#17
Volourn

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"But neither would have the lifespan that Morrowind had, (and indeed, both were inferior to what is, IMHO, the best of the ES games by far),"

 

WRONG. BIGLY WRONG. Even at its worse, the NWN series is vastly superior to the crap known as the ES. The ES is probably the worst BY FAR 'popular' PRG series of all time. Disgusting. Absolutely disgusting.



#18
deanwilkinson20

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That's a shame im glad others share the same opinion though. I just thought neverwinter nights was amazing online



#19
deanwilkinson20

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I liked both neverwinter nights though i prefered one. One seemed less cluncky and it was awesome to caste twice as fast with haste. Made you really feal bad ass. Aribeth was awesome and her voice set



#20
rjshae

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Characters in NWN2 have much fewer color channels and every outfit in NWN2 is what is called a robe in NWN which eliminates customization for each body part.

 

Not quite. Each armor type has a multitude of variations for different body parts, so it is highly customizable. Every piece of armor can be custom tinted, with each having its own tint map and channels. It's not that different really. Plus the graphics looks much better -- NWN are all angular low-poly models that look dreadful in closeup.

 

Also the tools you need for NWN2 animations are proprietary and costed thousands of dollars and aren't remotely available anymore but the tools that work with NWN are still functional and free.

 

That's the one area where I feel there is a lack. There's the free product GMax, which provides some of that capability.

 

NWN also has mounts, mounted combat & ride skill, including horse mounts, spider mounts, monster mounts, dinosaur mounts, drawn carriage mounts. NWN2 only had horse mounts but they were never properly finished or animated properly.

 

NWN2 never got more new wing or tail types while NWN mods added infinite amount of tails, infinite amount of wing variations. That also includes mods for flying animations in NWN which don't exist in NWN2.

 

True, but I haven't found these to be particularly important. They're niche areas.

 

As for building areas in NWN you could build an area in less than 10 minutes, the variations around each tile were automatically generated unlike NWN2 but you could use tools to change that if you like.

 

Yes, the NWN2 area building tools are more powerful and allow vastly more variety, at a cost in longer building time. Sure you can throw together a cheesy NWN area in no time flat, as you can with an NWN2 interior area. But the remainder of the module takes just as much work in NWN as it does in NWN2 (scripting, conversations, custom creatures, sound placement, traps, &c.), and that is where I find myself spending much of the time.






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