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Planescape: Torment EE


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#41
KaineParker

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I have to agree with Tigranes. The best thing the EE games did was give a clear damage window in either equipment or character, but at the cost of a horrible UI and a game that doesn't work with Ascension outside of BP. The apparent ability to do more with mods would be nice, but we're looking at an almost 2 decade old game whose modding community has either moved on or works on maintenance. Not to mention their added content is worse than some of the mods I've used, outside of VA of course, and feels even more out of place. At any rate shell out $20 if you want, but I'm sticking with the original I already own.
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#42
SonicMage117

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I think I'll buy it for all platforms they put it out on....
I'm not the kind that let's my nostalgia goggles keep me from experiencing something again but, in a different way but that's just me. I can understand the "purist" who wants things to remain untouched but let's face it, that's an unrealistic way of thinking for remasters/enhanced editions/HD ports.

 
"Nostalgia" is not a magic word that lets you say "hey people who don't like new stuff is just irrational nostalgia infected". I refer you to Brecht's Parade of the Old New. As for the 'purist' argument, as someone who has enjoyed every IE game with all sorts of mods for years, that's pretty far from being a 'purist'. I could easily dismiss those who disagree with me as 'casuals' or '12 year olds', but I know that most of the time, I would be grossly wrong.
 
Instead of those meaningless labels that too often become a substitute for thinking, let's look at the facts. 
 
If you want to play PST on your phone, this remake is great news, because there's no nice way to do it right now. End of story.
 
Maybe people who don't want Beamdog to mess content-wise with PST... are thinking about the fact that (1) the game is really very good and complete the way it is; (2) a bunch of mostly unrelated people who have never made a full game of their own as a studio and has made mostly bad/mediocre additions to older games, you know, probably won't make anything great this time round.
 
PST isn't particularly odious to run on newer systems. It is highly unlikely they could restore or add new content of any acceptable quality to harmonise with existing material. Their usability and aesthetic changes in past EEs have been godawful (UI), replicating existing services done by mods, or new and positive but not that significant. 
 
Those are the reasons that lead some folks to say, stop cashing in with your half-arsed 'enhancements' and go make a real game of your own. Not some 'Nostalgia' or 'Purist' sticker stuck to my head that forces me to oppose any kind of remaster of anything by anyone.
Actually, when it comes to gaming community, nostalgia is just that, it's a standard in which the community says "That's not how I remember it, therefore that's not how it should be". Now change something and the fans will react with "You're ruining the franchise! You're ruining my childhood!!"
Now, nostalgia on any other industry medium IS different because the communities for those act/behave differently. Perhaps it lies in the passion of the fanbase but I believe there are a few things to be learned here.
If you openly admit you're not a purist, then the comment wasn't for you. If you're modding the game with all kinds of user-created content then you're no lomger playing the original game. However, if you're just installing user-patches with fix/iron out bugs, allow HD resolutions, that is still keeping the original game to its purist form.
As far as Beamdog content, we don't really even know if there will be any and if there is, what will be the extent of it. It's all speculation and assumption right now. Regardless, again I say that my fondest memories have been with Beamdog's Enhanced Editions on the go. Not only do they make things highly accessible and easy for the user but also very high quality.
Nothing I have said is really debatable, what's debatable is how the additional content of Beamdog being good or bad and why the user feels it is so because this is a community built of IE fans, and even though people like us have grown up on IE games, there are things that people will come to disagree on.
 
As someone who very much loves old games, I dispute your broad brush declaration of what those communities are like. They sound like an outsider's dismissal saying "eh these guys are just nostalgic." Too many times people project their own opinions and experiences to say things like "you might think PST is perfect but if you played it now you'd see it is very dated"... forgetting that many such people like old games because they continue to play them today.
 
I think I can make an intelligent estimate about Beamdog's 'enhancements' based on the 3 EEs they've already released, none of which I thought was even close to worth existing. As with all estimates, they can be wrong, but I hardly think this is me making something up out of thin air.
 
I don't think you can tell me what parts of your statement is or isn't debatable. I think your casual throaway remarks about nostalgia and purist, as I said before, are pointless labelling that often gets in the way of actually using our brains to sort out the particularities of a specific situation.
Well first off, you don't speak for the full community, everyone has different tastes, there will always be mixed emotiona and opinions when a classic franchise has been tampered with in some shape and form and no, I'm not saying that Planescape Torment is dated. When did I say or even suggest a thing?

There's nothing wrong with people preferring the orginal content. That's nothing to do with what I've been saying here.

I'm basing the "nostalgia goggles" factor off of the fact that the gaming community always reacts this way when a remake with changes happens. This isn't debatable, if it is, then feel free to show me an example that proves me wrong.

The thing here is that Crpg fanbase is made up of us older gamers (me being in my 30's included). I'm not going to go in denial and say "There is no nostalgic bias here" because we all know that's not true.

As a lover of all thing Infinity Engine, and Crpg, I would buy Beamdog's ports anyhow to support the framchises and the genre. Who else is going to buy them? I look at the negative reviews of PoE from time to time and find that most of them are written by younger people who don't have the patience to learn how to play the game.

Nothing in my remarks is casual, so far all I see is you twisting/manipulating my words, not accepting the fact that there will always be a nostalgic bias factor from a community of older gamers with older franchises and lastly it sounds like you're arguing just to argue. It really shouldn't be this hard to get my point.
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#43
kensu

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Holding out hope that it means that an Icewind Dale II: EE that actually has proper widescreen support is on the horizon.

I wouldn't hold my breath...

 

http://www.pcgamer.c...mdog-boss-says/

 

 

I'm certain they will make an EE of IWD2, for one very important reason...

Well, no, what I meant to say is that if Beamdog had at least a single brain among they would, but I've seen very little proof of that.

In any case the reason why they would want to do IWD2, even because of the hardship required to essentially rebuild the Infinity Engine 1.5 is this: if they are truly serious about making Baldur's Gate III, IWD2 would provide the perfect base for that effort. 3rd Edition is much closer to the current version of D&D and Pathfinder than 2nd Edition, which would make it much easier for the kids to adapt to. 3rd Edition is also what was used in the later D&D games, which the younger players are more likely to have played.

 

So, like I said, if Beamdog had any sense at all, the would port IWD2, if no other reason than to have a base on which to build Baldur's Gate III.

 

Maybe they could even license it out to Obsidian, and we could finally get The Black Hound (without it pretending to be a Baldur's Gate tie-in). :D


Edited by kensu, 28 March 2017 - 05:53 AM.

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#44
Zoraptor

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I'd agree with those saying that PST could benefit most from an EE. BG1/2 and IWD were pretty self contained and complete games in their own right, I didn't sit down after playing them and think of anything additional that could have improved them. PST- by its, heh, nature- does have a lot more flesh that could be added to things like the factions that would be an improvement rather than just 'more', plus an extra pass over Curst could improve that section and the games UI was certainly not the greatest. Aspects of the 'evil path' were also rather lacking in places.

 

Curst I think is definitely the place where more content could be added, but I don't think the factions need work. I don't think the factions are there to provide additional content but rather as additional facets and points of view to some of the central themes of the game. In this regard I can't say they need more 'fleshing out', I think they are portrayed richly enough as is. Moreover I'm not convinced of yet that anything Beamdog will add in these fronts would amount to more than just 'more'. I guess we'll have to see, ultimately...

 

 

I don't really think that the factions need work either, but if I were to add extra content* that's the sort of area where I'd look, after Curst. Factions are quite suited to either a modular approach where you add extra factions or adding content to the existing ones, and I really don't like the thought of alternatives like adding a dungeon for the sake of it. Mostly though, if you are going to do additional content you might as well use the setting's uniqueness as that is PST's greatest asset except writing, which you aren't going to top. Things like the factions are an integral part of that- though, of course, I'm just using them as an example.

 

*They don't need to add content, even to Curst, but it certainly helps them justify the added cost and history suggests they will probably do it.



#45
SonicMage117

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I'm not sure if I could ever think that any form f BGIII would ever be good... regardless of who's at the wheel :(

If they did I poll, I'd vote for a totally new IP to be honest.

#46
Messier-31

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Beamdog really wants to do it, eh?

 

In my opinion... enhanced editions of IwD and both BG games were quite good after a bazillion patches and updates. Though I think the new content was "meh" at best. Black Pits is a thing that I couldn't care less about. I really like what they did with those bugs and visual enhancements and all that jazz. Doing all that modding by myself was a real chore, so this part is at least gone, still there are some good content mods that run OK with EE and vanilla. But the price for what Beamdog truly did... simply too expensive, if you ask me.

 

Siege of Dragonspear was really nice. I mean, it is not super awesome or anything like that, but at least the nostalgia and BG vibes are handled okay-ish and I really like the idea of venturing north of BG, bridging the gap between BG1 and BG2. Sure, the story coulda been better, but all in all this thing is quite good. Still pricey, though, but this is my inner cheap-skate talking.

 

So, if Beamdog really wants to enhance P:T there should be no new plot content to start with whatsoever (or minimum new content), and only those visual enhancements. Not only Beamdog's content is controversial and receives mixed reception, but P:T is a great complete story that doesn't need enhancing. But this is not going to happen, is it? How else will they earn some money?

 

I call shenanigans :p


Edited by Messier-31, 28 March 2017 - 02:05 AM.

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#47
Katphood

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I bought PS:T when it was released on GOG.com. It looked pretty great with a few patches installed, played it from start to finish on my big screen with no problems whatsoever on WIN 7.

I'll buy this if they add achievements.
Spoiler


#48
kirottu

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#49
SonicMage117

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Chris Avellone "The best way to play Planescape Torment"

^Is it a marketing quote or is it an honest statement? It could be both or neither one actually. So many possibilities but I think I remember him saying Siege Of Dragonspear was the best thing ever too lol

#50
Humanoid

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That's hardly going out on a limb is it? I mean, if they kept absolutely everything the same, but made one tiny UI improvement for example, that statement is already true by definition.

 

I've never had an issue with the EEs in principle, however I've never found reason to pay for the games again either. I acknowledge the legitimate complaints about the old versions being removed from sale, which does increase the minimum entry price for new players, but hey, I'm not one of them so it's just a passing thought.



#51
SonicMage117

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I know lol I figured I would say it before anyone else did.

The Crpg community is the strangest, I find, originally I thought that the biggest audience for these releases would be mostly made of pre-existing owners of the game but seems most prefer to stick with the original version with mods. The game is already catering to a niche audience so I'll be interested to follow the sales results.

Then again, there are probably just as many Crpg fans on mobile as there are on pc, even though they are not as nearly as vocal.

#52
Amentep

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As someone who very much loves old games, I dispute your broad brush declaration of what those communities are like. They sound like an outsider's dismissal saying "eh these guys are just nostalgic." Too many times people project their own opinions and experiences to say things like "you might think PST is perfect but if you played it now you'd see it is very dated"... forgetting that many such people like old games because they continue to play them today.

 
To be honest I remember back on the BIS forums when the modding community being told by certain fans that BG1 and 2 were only good because of fan made mods.  I had one person argue with me that if I hadn't played BG2 with a dozen different community mods I'd never really played the game.  Mind you I've also had people argue that Fallout's inventory system is perfect...sometimes people just have very different perspectives and fan appreciation is different in all of us.
 
For me I only ever used fan made bug fixes.  So when BG2EE comes out and I hear people harping on about how they can't use this or that mod with it, I admit I don't hear that criticism.  Because to me I have no feeling positive or negatively towards that content and it doesn't effect my enjoyment of the game.  I never felt - like that one nameless poster a decade or more ago - that I hadn't played BG2 if I hadn't used at least a dozen key fan mods.
 
I also don't feel like the new content feels at odds with my memory of the original game. Siege of Dragonspear was fun.  Not perfect, but fun.  I ignored two out of three companions in BG1EE; the one who forced a conversation with me I just turned down.  I killed the one new companion I ran into in BG2EE (because they were a vampire who killed someone in front of me) before I switched to another game of BG1EE. Again the only thing I found distracting so far was the UI on BG2EE.  I may feel different as I get more into it.

 

But right now innocuous describes my feelings on most of the changes other than Siege.  I liked Siege enough to say it was a fun - if unnecessary - bridge for BG1.

 

I think I can make an intelligent estimate about Beamdog's 'enhancements' based on the 3 EEs they've already released, none of which I thought was even close to worth existing. As with all estimates, they can be wrong, but I hardly think this is me making something up out of thin air.

 
I find "existence" to be a peculiar point of argument.  I'm not sure any game has ever had to argue a need to exist before being made.  The argument prior to being made would be "is there a market for this if it does exist?"  Which I guess sells for the EEs says there is for PST.


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#53
SonicMage117

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Geez... I just happened to play the video again, this time it popped out to the YouTube app so I scrolled down to see the comments.

Lone behold, it's a toxic wasteland with alot of ignorance being spread around. Seems everyone is calling this a "shameless cash-grab" before playing the game, as if one could tell the future just by watching a trailer... it's never cool to judge something before it releases - even if you've had past experience with developers and their product. Accusing Beamdog of saying things they never said seems to be another whine of a comment - they're not trying to take credit for Planescape Torment so I'm confused why people are making this up. And lastly, when someone says "I hope they add female characters" someone instantly gets offended from that request and says "Oh look SJW's have arrived". Why is it SJW talk to ask for female characters? The occultic mindset deals in absolutes I guess, it's always either/or and never maybe for another reason, a valid entry upon revival?

^The kind of things that make me ashamed at this deluded generation of gamers, whenever I see people act like this I buy multiple copies of the game, for myself and online friends. If people don't like a game (or a certain version of it) they can always move on, nobody is forcing anyone to like or accept the change but people shouldn't whine about it either.

I know this is off topic but I felt it needed to be said (no clue if anyone here commented on it and I apologize if I offended you in any way sincerely), I know YouTube is brutal since it doesn't have mods. It's just out of control, nothing new. I am even more grateful for our mods now lol
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#54
kanisatha

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Haha, I didn't realize how loathed beamdog is around here. Personally, I enjoyed IWD EE, and having never played the original torment (I've tried before, but it kept crashing on my modern PC), I would be happy to buy this as well.

 

But did I want IWDII EE more? Yeah, I kinda did.

Yep, in the same way that Obsidian gets hated on and put down on some other forums. Wouldn't be the Internet without people feeling personal affirmation by hating what other people like.

 

I too would like an IwD2 EE though because it never received an expansion I would like one of those for it as well. I never thought Ps:T was that awesome of a game (yeah I know, how dare I say so, blah blah) but I'll buy the EE if for no other reason than to spite the haters.


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#55
alsey

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Of all the IE games this is the only one I thought could do with an EE (provided they don't change content).
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#56
kanisatha

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I'm not sure if I could ever think that any form f BGIII would ever be good... regardless of who's at the wheel :(

If they did I poll, I'd vote for a totally new IP to be honest.

References have been made by both Beamdog and WotC that Beamdog has a license to make a completely new game (i.e. a new IP) using 5e rules and set in the Forgotten Realms. That's what they're working on and not any such thing as a BG3. So people talking about a BG3 are either referencing very old news that is no longer relevant or are deliberately referencing it as a way of attacking/putting down Beamdog.


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#57
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Frankly I hope they add the GIANT WALKING THROUGH THE TREES FROM THE FALLOUT DISC TRAILER THAT WASN'T IN THE GAME!

Worst bait and switch ever.  WHY BLACK ISLE STUDIOS, WHY? :aiee:

 

*sobs* (check at the 33 second mark) *sob*

 

 

 

:dancing:


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#58
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I thought that the giant in the original video was refered to Coaxmetal?

#59
Tale

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I still need to play Siege of Dragonspear...

#60
Amentep

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I thought that the giant in the original video was refered to Coaxmetal?

 
I've heard that argument made before but not really seen a source. Back when I moderated the PST forums on BIS's boards the speculation was it was cut content, a cut mega-spell or just something added to the video that was never intended to do more but give a feel for the strangeness of the planes.
 
If it is Coaxmetal, they interpreted him differently between the game and video.  Giant in the video looks like he's got a green skin and is clearly wearing armor with spiky pauldrons while Coaxmetal has a metallic head and no armor (and a wheel on his right shoulder instead of a pauldron).
 
Given that most of the other things in the trailer use in-game models, it seems weird the giant looks nothing like Coaxmetal if they are one and the same.  But if someone has a source on that connection I'd appreciate it.




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