Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Sleep scumming.


  • Please log in to reply
52 replies to this topic

#41
MountainTiger

MountainTiger

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 60 posts

Careful there, you're teetering on the verge of the  "non-regenerating, regimented action points" system of Tides of Numenera.


Hehe, I'm not familiar with that system.

Its just weird to me that people go out of the way to hamstring casters under three layers, two of which are caster specific, that other classes don't have to deal with: "You have a finite amount of casts, and you shouldn't be able to replenish them whenever you want/need, and it shall cost you a resource (that for some reason is limited in carrying). :wacko:


The reward is that you get more powerful and versatile abilities. If casters can regenerate their abilities with the same ease as other classes, they need to be radically powered down.
  • rjshae likes this

#42
rjshae

rjshae

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4376 posts
  • Location:Seattle, WA
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

Hehe, I'm not familiar with that system.The reward is that you get more powerful and versatile abilities. If casters can regenerate their abilities with the same ease as other classes, they need to be radically powered down.

 

One of these days we'll see a cRPG based on Ars Magica and then all those mage junkies can go hog wild... :)


  • JerekKruger likes this

#43
PugPug

PugPug

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 150 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

- If the player sleeps more than a given percentage of a day (for instance if they deplete their fatigue intentionally using booze or something so they can sleep again), they'll end up getting infected bedsores, which they'll need a doctor to treat.

 

It takes much longer than a day to develop bedsores, and the typical movement during sleep prevents them. It only happens to people who can't move, and even then nurses can mitigate or prevent them.



#44
Blutwurstritter

Blutwurstritter

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 27 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I guess i'm in the minority but i like time limits and always thought it is severely underused especially in games with resting mechanics. Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 had quests with time limits, which worked out well. I like time limits since it is a "hard" resource which you can't bypass and actually forces you to adapt. I am not arguing for time limits in Pillars since i don't think they would enhance the game as it is and resource management is only a very minor aspect of the game. 

The resting mechanic in Baldur's Gate was mostly pointless since it could in almost every case be bypassed either by save scumming or backtracking. Pillars does it better to a degree since it stops save scumming. The biggest problem in my opinion is the Vancian casting system which requires resting. I assume that this was also the reason why you could almost everywhere sleep in the infinity engine games.

Overall the current system is no true resource management since you can always bypass it, neither does it add tactical depth since you can always use all spells in your spell book like a sorcerer, in Pillars. This tactical aspect was actually better in the infinity engine games since you had atleast to pick a multiset of spells for non sorcerers, limiting your access to spells in an ongoing combat. It would have made much more sense with resting supplies to keep this part of the casting system as it actually had some impact especially at lower levels.

At the current state i feel like it is only part of the game since it was promoted as game resembling the infinity games, although it doesn't contribute much to the gameplay.



#45
rjshae

rjshae

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4376 posts
  • Location:Seattle, WA
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I guess i'm in the minority but i like time limits and always thought it is severely underused especially in games with resting mechanics. Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 had quests with time limits, which worked out well. I like time limits since it is a "hard" resource which you can't bypass and actually forces you to adapt. I am not arguing for time limits in Pillars since i don't think they would enhance the game as it is and resource management is only a very minor aspect of the game.

 

Time limits are the enemy of exploration. It just takes away an important element of the game, as I always feel like I have to blow through the plot without looking around. FO1 felt like that -- I couldn't just go randomly off somewhere, but had to constantly stay on mission. For me that ruined the experience, so I prefer to play it with the mod version that eliminates the time limit.

 

They could add time limits as a game option, with a default of off, but then they would need to include failure consequences.


  • eselle28, Varana and Sedrefilos like this

#46
rjshae

rjshae

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4376 posts
  • Location:Seattle, WA
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Sleep scumming is a nuisance; I have to thoroughly wash my face in the morning in order to flush out all the little bits stuck to the eye lashes...  :sweat: 


  • eselle28, Regggler and JerekKruger like this

#47
Varana

Varana

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 424 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
I mean, time limits can make sense if they are used very sparingly, in specific circumstances, and are clearly communicated. But for the main part of a game like PoE, I think they'd be a very bad idea.

As for resting, I think that the system in TTON (only specific places where you can rest, and you have to pay money to do so) wasn't that bad, in theory. But that is specific to that particular game where you basically can't get stuck in a fight, and you need the same resources (your stat pools) not only for combat but also during dialogue and various interactions with the world, and you don't really die except in a few situations. (The idea basically defeated itself by introducing free resting in the more important areas, and the usual CRPG problem of having truckloads of money in the end, anyway.) It wouldn't really work for PoE.
  • Regggler likes this

#48
eselle28

eselle28

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 132 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I guess i'm in the minority but i like time limits and always thought it is severely underused especially in games with resting mechanics. Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 had quests with time limits, which worked out well. I like time limits since it is a "hard" resource which you can't bypass and actually forces you to adapt. I am not arguing for time limits in Pillars since i don't think they would enhance the game as it is and resource management is only a very minor aspect of the game.

Time limits are the enemy of exploration. It just takes away an important element of the game, as I always feel like I have to blow through the plot without looking around. FO1 felt like that -- I couldn't just go randomly off somewhere, but had to constantly stay on mission. For me that ruined the experience, so I prefer to play it with the mod version that eliminates the time limit.

They could add time limits as a game option, with a default of off, but then they would need to include failure consequences.
.

Time limits are also pretty brutal for gamers who aren't able to finish their first time through the game in a weeklong binge. I know it's more realistic when a character has to be on their toes at all times, but that does meet up with the reality of human gamers who have exams or business trips or sick kids.

I don't mind time limits for a side quest or two, if they're explicit, but for the main path that's just punishing - especially since it wouldn't be clear how many saves back a player would need to go.

Edited by eselle28, 21 March 2017 - 05:06 PM.


#49
KaineParker

KaineParker

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2703 posts
  • Location:Houston, Texas
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

"Sleeping" means different things for different classes. Where a Wizard will be completely out of spells (their primary function) after a few battles and must resort to the thrilling game of Returning Frost Dart, a melee class can utilize their primary ability (punching stuff) for an unlimited amount of times. I bet if melee weapons broke every 3-4 battles, suddenly "resting" wouldn't be a problem. :lol:


Wizard abilities are going to be per encounter in PoE2 so that's a moot point.

#50
Gfted1

Gfted1

    Forum Moderator

  • Moderators
  • 5168 posts
  • Location:Chicago, IL
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer

Wizard abilities are going to be per encounter in PoE2 so that's a moot point.


Well in that case, those meatshields need to stop resting so often to recharge that Clear Out ability. :p

#51
Ninjamestari

Ninjamestari

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 459 posts

The whole problem with resting is that the discussion is taken completely out of context. The issue isn't 'resting' per se, the issue is whether or not you want to have meaningful mid-term / long-term resource management or do you want the player to be at full power before every single encounter. That is the core question the devs should ask, and then build the character system around those goals instead of starting with the details and hoping that the end product will resemble something. This isn't a 'choice' vs 'no choice' issue either, as there is balance to consider.

 

They should pick a goal, design with that goal in mind and stick to it instead of having this ridiculous back-and-forth with largely meaningless details. When you have a clear goal you can ask productive questions, such as "does this design serve the goal we have", and "are there other ways to accomplish this", and even "is this feature even necessary to achieve our goal". The feeling I get from the deadfire project is that no one has a clear picture about what they are trying to do and why, which is why I'm still very sceptical about the whole game. The first game suffered very much from the same symptoms, but the situation wasn't bad enough to spoil the experience completely, which is why I don't regret buying it.

 

True excellence requires leadership, not 'communication' and 'compromise' and 'talking'. Of course good leadership needs feedback, but it also requires a strong vision. When the vision isn't clear, the end product suffers, and where there's no clear and efficient leadership, the vision gets muddied under a thousand different voices and interpretations. To quote my favorite bad guys, 'One Vision, One Purpose'.

 

EDIT: what I mean with meaningless details is that without a clear vision the details are completely without context and thus there is absolutely no way to determine whether they serve the purpose of the vision or not.


Edited by Ninjamestari, 22 March 2017 - 07:25 AM.

  • Tigranes and kensu like this

#52
Blutwurstritter

Blutwurstritter

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 27 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

I guess i'm in the minority but i like time limits and always thought it is severely underused especially in games with resting mechanics. Fallout 1 and Fallout 2 had quests with time limits, which worked out well. I like time limits since it is a "hard" resource which you can't bypass and actually forces you to adapt. I am not arguing for time limits in Pillars since i don't think they would enhance the game as it is and resource management is only a very minor aspect of the game.

 

Time limits are the enemy of exploration. It just takes away an important element of the game, as I always feel like I have to blow through the plot without looking around. FO1 felt like that -- I couldn't just go randomly off somewhere, but had to constantly stay on mission. For me that ruined the experience, so I prefer to play it with the mod version that eliminates the time limit.

 

They could add time limits as a game option, with a default of off, but then they would need to include failure consequences.

 

The time limit then did exactly what it was designed to do, keeping you on track. And in the case of Fallout 1 the the resource management was a more important aspect than the free exploration. I agree that it was a pretty harsh time limit before the patch but in the patched version after the initial quest of getting the water chip you could explore as much as you liked. I think after the patch you had over a decade ingame time befor the mutants destroyed everything.

Like i said, i dont think Pillars should use time limits since it was never designed for this, i only mentioned it since it is a possibility to prevent sleep scumming and to introduce other aspects in game mechanics.



#53
Tigranes

Tigranes

    Obsidian VIP

  • Members
  • 10104 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

The whole problem with resting is that the discussion is taken completely out of context. The issue isn't 'resting' per se, the issue is whether or not you want to have meaningful mid-term / long-term resource management or do you want the player to be at full power before every single encounter. That is the core question the devs should ask, and then build the character system around those goals instead of starting with the details and hoping that the end product will resemble something. This isn't a 'choice' vs 'no choice' issue either, as there is balance to consider.

 

More or less. If they want any kind of meaningful sense of scarcity, attrition, resource management, the dungeon as an intimidating space, then some kind of restriction on restoring player power is necessary. If they want to instead offer a frustration-free experience where you blast enemies with cool spells that replenish whenever you like, then just get rid of camping supplies and whatnot. 


  • Ninjamestari and MountainTiger like this




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users