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Sleep scumming.


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#21
eselle28

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Time limited critical path. No workarounds. Problem solved.

 

That's a fine enough idea...for a game someone other than me can play. More generally, I can't see that going over all that well with the audience for Deadfire.


Edited by eselle28, 20 March 2017 - 12:35 PM.

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#22
MountainTiger

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No need to time limit the entire critical path, just a key quest now and then



#23
Messier-31

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Sleep scumming is the new save scumming?


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#24
Katarack21

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I straight won't play time-limited games or quests with time-limits. I have really sever anxiety and time-limited quests and **** give me panic attacks. So for me, that's *right* out.


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#25
Tigranes

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You see added value. I don't; I see only "added annoyance". Complaining about rest limitations isn't bitching about lack of total freedom; that's the archetypal strawman. I'm complaining about a specific limitation that has specific consequences which I specifically dislike.

I don't need to be able to do *anything* I want. I don't want to serial murder prostitutes in PoE, that's what GTA is for. I don't want to set people on fire and piss on their bodies, that's what Postal is for. I don't want to hack computers and fight corporations, that's what Shadowrun is for.

I just don't want to have to **** around with rest mechanics. Very specific.

 

Of course - you don't see the added value, and you're arguing against its exclusion. As I said, that's totally legitimate. I was addressing the whole "you should let players rest if they want to more choice the better" line that I've seen a lot in previous discussions. 

 

Back to the issue itself, my argument is precisely that resting limits isn't just an anti-frustration issue. The ability to rest anywhere eliminates a strategic / resources layer to gameplay that, I would argue, is what makes a dungeon an actual dungeon, instead of a magic vacuum. I want each fight to matter in the context of other fights, and I want to feel intimidated by a deep dungeon that wears down my character, and I want to think about taking out enemies with a depleted party as a different kind of tactical setpiece rather than always fighting with the same full arsenal. 

 

If it was purely about adding pointless frustration, nobody would like it. (Conversely, I also accept that yes, there is frustration involved - otherwise few people would be against it.)


Edited by Tigranes, 20 March 2017 - 01:35 PM.

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#26
Varana

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Time limit on main quest - oh gods in hell, no.

---

I'm not quite sure what the original proposal is trying to accomplish. If I want to rest, I'm going to rest, easy as that.
If you throw random encounters at me like BG, I'm either going to try again until it's successful, or save/reload.
If there are debuffs for resting somewhere, I'm going to deal with them if they're not a real cost, or go back to where I don't get them if it's really necessary.
If you force me to wait until I can rest again, I'm either going to hit the Wait button until I can do it, or go make me a pot of tea while the game is running, cursing that dumb system all the way to the kitchen and back if there is no Wait button.

"Realism" is secondary. This is a game. Every part of it has to work as part of the game. How you do your rest system has nothing to do with being "realistic", and everything with decisions that the player has to make and how you want your game to flow and your abilities to work, and so on. You can write up some pseudo-realistic stuff later to justify it, if you're so inclined.

Edited by Varana, 20 March 2017 - 01:37 PM.

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#27
eselle28

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And this whole discussion is probably why we have camping supplies and random attacks and other imperfect mechanisms, as clunky as they can be. People are all over the map on this issue, and a lot of the options that veer in one direction or the other are more elegant but alienate large portions of the player base.
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#28
Sedrefilos

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Sleep scumming is the new save scumming?

Lots of scum playing rpgs you see...



#29
rjshae

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The BG1/2 rest mechanic is a total kludge anyway. Realistically, you'd need several weeks to rest up following a brutal combat, and you'd want to do that somewhere reasonably safe.

 

This is how the BGs work, though: the natural recovery rate of a character without superhuman constitution is minimal. It just happens that the setting has lots of readily available magical healing, so 1-2 rests worth of spells will fix whatever ails you (up to and including death once you unlock those spells).

 

The IE games had their own sleep restriction though in the form of frequent random encounters when you tried to rest in hazardous areas. Your choice was to backtrack to a safe location, or keep reloading until you had a successful sleep cycle. Either way it penalized players who slept after each battle. I'd argue that camping supplies are a less cumbersome substitute that create more interesting choices for the players.



#30
Katarack21

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That mechanism also led to the phenomenon of sleep grinding.

#31
anameforobsidian

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Camp supplies beat the **** out of random encounters, and time limits take the fun out of open-world games.  I really think it's a fairly elegant solution.  The only problem I see with them is the dissonance between stash and camp supply mechanics.  That could be better solved by having a Torchlight 2 style animal messenger, or limiting stash access to certain times.



#32
Katarack21

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Stash acess limitations are a toggle. Limit them if you want. :)

#33
Ninjamestari

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And this whole discussion is probably why we have camping supplies and random attacks and other imperfect mechanisms, as clunky as they can be. People are all over the map on this issue, and a lot of the options that veer in one direction or the other are more elegant but alienate large portions of the player base.

 

Which is precisely why you should pick your audience instead of trying to make a compromise that doesn't satisfy anyone. Eloquent solutions grow on people, even the naysayers, and most people don't know what they want before they get it. People who want strategic resource management are people who have experienced the excitement and the sensations involved with it. Limited resources generate stronger emotions and feelings, unlimited resources merely shield you from those feelings. You can only make a true universally praised masterpiece if you go in all the way and give a finger to all the naysayers; the more you try to satisfy everyone the less you can satisfy anyone.



#34
Duskshift

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The BG1/2 rest mechanic is a total kludge anyway. Realistically, you'd need several weeks to rest up following a brutal combat, and you'd want to do that somewhere reasonably safe.

 

This is how the BGs work, though: the natural recovery rate of a character without superhuman constitution is minimal. It just happens that the setting has lots of readily available magical healing, so 1-2 rests worth of spells will fix whatever ails you (up to and including death once you unlock those spells).

 

The IE games had their own sleep restriction though in the form of frequent random encounters when you tried to rest in hazardous areas. Your choice was to backtrack to a safe location, or keep reloading until you had a successful sleep cycle. Either way it penalized players who slept after each battle. I'd argue that camping supplies are a less cumbersome substitute that create more interesting choices for the players.

 

Which begs the question of why the supplied camping system is not thought through.

 

I mean i am fine with needing supplies to rest, but why make those available only to vendors and also why not offer different supply tiers that you can also craft yourself? Change the flat fatigue reduction and healing to be a chance that is getting progressively better with supply quality and you have a solid system right there...

It would be a lot more sensible also, if this would have been integrated with the food system. I'd rather go through great lenghts (in terms of ingredients / gold used) to make a 'dragon slaying resting supply' for example, than just buying camping supplys and dragon meat(plus crafting the food and eating it after resting) at a vendor.

 

I understand that there needs to be some penality. But that the penalizing itself is done via the 'supply management' of camping supplys (how many do i have and where can i buy them..) is kind of .. well .. not the best solution.


Edited by Duskshift, 21 March 2017 - 05:31 AM.


#35
Gfted1

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"Sleeping" means different things for different classes. Where a Wizard will be completely out of spells (their primary function) after a few battles and must resort to the thrilling game of Returning Frost Dart, a melee class can utilize their primary ability (punching stuff) for an unlimited amount of times. I bet if melee weapons broke every 3-4 battles, suddenly "resting" wouldn't be a problem. :lol:
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#36
Wormerine

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I did like how PoE handled resting. I thought it made sense, was thematically appropriate, and well... worked. There is one good thing, which comes from rests - there is an element of resource management. I do remember sleep scumming when I played BG back in the day. With pillars I found balance quite well done. I never run out of supplies (even though I never played below hard/PotD), however limitation on rests allowed did force me to think more carefully about what I am doing. Not overcasting if I don't need to. I liked it. It wasn't an issue, but it did encourage thinking, befoe activating limited use abilities. More involved mechanic might be welcome, but not necessary needed in my humble opinion.



#37
Varana

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Not every game is made better by "strategic resource management". Not even games where strategic resource management is an important part of gameplay in other areas.
You cannot just tack on systems and gameplay mechanics until you can't think of any anymore. If an elaborate resource management for resting takes away focus from where you want the focus of the game to be, it should be scrapped.
Complicated resting mechanics are a core aspect of a survival game. PoE isn't one. In PoE, resting is a subsystem of encounter balance and dungeon design. Making it too time- and attention-consuming blurs the focus and hurts its purpose in the context of the game as a whole.
Adding complexity doesn't necessarily add depth. Often, it just adds bloat.

---
Crafting supplies yourself doesn't solve the problem in any way. If you want to make supplies worth the effort, you've got to tightly control distribution of the necessary resources, like they did with the components for highest tier crafting. Which means that there isn't much difference between being able to find supply crafting resources only in certain spots and in a certain amount, or just distributing the traders that sell camping supplies as you like it.
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#38
kensu

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"Sleeping" means different things for different classes. Where a Wizard will be completely out of spells (their primary function) after a few battles and must resort to the thrilling game of Returning Frost Dart, a melee class can utilize their primary ability (punching stuff) for an unlimited amount of times. I bet if melee weapons broke every 3-4 battles, suddenly "resting" wouldn't be a problem. :lol:

 

Careful there, you're teetering on the verge of the  "non-regenerating, regimented action points" system of Tides of Numenera.



#39
Gfted1

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Careful there, you're teetering on the verge of the  "non-regenerating, regimented action points" system of Tides of Numenera.


Hehe, I'm not familiar with that system.

Its just weird to me that people go out of the way to hamstring casters under three layers, two of which are caster specific, that other classes don't have to deal with: "You have a finite amount of casts, and you shouldn't be able to replenish them whenever you want/need, and it shall cost you a resource (that for some reason is limited in carrying). :wacko:



#40
Duskshift

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... [stuff] ...

Very true - i stand corrected. Replacing tedious with tedious doesn't really make sense. But then again would the system - if transfered it in the current state to Deadfire - even make any sense at all? From what i can tell the amount of per encouter abilities will only increase in Deadfire (due to level limit, multiclassing, ...). And all that is disregarding that some casters (hello cipher / chanter) don't have the need to replenish their spells too.


Edited by Duskshift, 21 March 2017 - 07:25 AM.





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