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Deadfire isn't going to be a "dumbed down" pillars like tyranny is it?


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#41
Katarack21

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^^^^^

I don't no about that

Fortunately for you, there's about a dozen research studies from various organizations discussing and confirming this. Whether or not *you* know about it, *they* do.


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#42
firkraag888

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You reckon that there are more 30year olds playing video games then teenagers?

#43
Katarack21

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You reckon that there are more 30year olds playing video games then teenagers?

Yes. I'll bet you that 29% of people who play video games are under the age of 18, in fact. Now, a higher percentage of 15 year olds are gamers than 30 year olds, but that's a different statistic entirely.

The people who where born in the late 70's through early 90's make up the majority of video game players today. Sheer math makes it so.


Edited by Katarack21, 19 March 2017 - 07:20 AM.

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#44
Hynkel

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Pillars of eternity (like baldurs gate 2) is a complex game. With a target audience probably consisting of ex infinity engine players, ex D&D players and people in the age bracket of 16-40 year olds.

Im assuming that the bulk of video games sales goes to a target audience of 8-18 year olds.

Of course I'm concerned that obsidian would dumb the game down to target this bigger market. I was simply comparing sales of skyrim and witcher because in my opinion both skyrim and witcher are dumbed down RPGs

Gameplay complexity has nothing to do with the players' age.

 

Complexity has something to do with willingness to invest time and effort into understanding something. A lot of people here got into IE games when they were younger and had much more free time. Now they are older, have a job, kids maybe ; but they play PoE for the nostalgia factor, and since they beat Baldu'rs Gate a million times, playing something like PoE doesn't require the same amount of intellectual investment and "risk taking" (as in, putting money in a game you might not like) as the average player.

 

But the very same BG Veterans demographic probably wouldn't play other complex games they're less familiar with (say, Guilty Gear). Because they don't have anymore the amount of free time they had when they knew every single spell from the DnD rulebooks. 

 

That's the niche game curse. You just don't suddenly become invested in a demanding genre at 40. It takes decades of investment and passion to build such a demographic.


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#45
Sedrefilos

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Bulk of people playing games is 20-35 years, male; statistic-wise. It makes sense as they are more financially (at least) independent than teenagers and less probable of having families.



#46
IamNOOB

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If someone is stupid or does not like RPGs he might hate RPGs or have bad experience with them even if he is 39, age is not so important. Ofc 4 year olds will not enjoy PoE. I am 30 myself. Truth is most people believe gaming is for kids up to 17-18. My wife also asks why I play games at this age and does not like it.
I showed my amazing wife what The Witcher is and then she understood why I love RPGs. ))



#47
firkraag888

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Skyrim and witcher remind me of console.

When I think of console I think dumbed down

#48
Hertzila

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Going by Industry Facts: The average age of the American video game buyer is 35, and 73% are 18 or older. Of course, who knows how they count video game buyers. They might count a person who once bought an Angry Birds microtransaction as a video game buyer.

 

Still, it would point towards the vast majority of video game players, including those that play the big AAA stuff, to be adults.


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#49
Varana

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I wouldn't put too much hope in GOG sales, honestly. The only number I've seen for some game was 90% Steam, with GOG and others in the remaining 10%.
That certainly depends on genre and individual game, but I'd be extremely surprised if GOG had a share of more than 15-20%. Except probably for the Witcher games as GOG and CDProjekt are related.

Not even bothering with this "dumbing down" nonsense.

#50
Tigranes

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There are very clear, repeated, well-documented things that happen when a game designed for a smaller PC-only audience starts becoming built for consoles and larger audiences. And yes, a lot of those changes do involve, or risk, dumbing down the game when it comes to old-school CRPGs.

 

E.g.

  • The UI has to become simpler, which sometimes translates into simplifying the kinds of control and fiddling expected of the gamer, and sometimes just means UI that is crappy for the PC from aesthetic and usability perspective. Compare BG2 or Morrowind UI to the endless scrolling through tiny windows of lists in Skyrim.
  • Party sizes become smaller; although I've consistently said I don't think 6->5 is a big problem for POE2, if it was done for consoles rather than systems overhaul then it is a classic case of 'dumbing down'.
  • Area zones become smaller, because in the last decade or so smaller console memory sizes compared to their contemporary PC generations meant they couldn't handle it. Thief 3, IIRC, suffered from this. 
  • Other small changes where it's not so much a straightforward "consoles => x", but console audiences and console requirements becomes a big factor in how decisions are made - e.g. higher expectation of voice acting and/or considerations for reading text in TVs, leading to artificial limits on word count (instead of, say, writers deciding what is too verbose and what is not).

 

That's obviously a very specific thing, not "consoles = dumb always". But many fans of old-school CRPGs have become extremely suspicious of consolisation, and with good reason. 


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#51
Gregorovitch

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just checked

 

Tyranny 160,000

Torment Tides 112,000

Pillars Of Eternity nearly 1,000,000 (and that's not including the 2 expansions)

 

that's only on steam

 

Indeed. My take on this is that that devs are looking at what two small vocal minorities are saying and reaching the wrong conclusion and I think these numbers show that. I call these minorities the Grumpy Grizzled Old Grognards (me being a prime example) who go ape at the slightest hint of dumbing down, sorry, making more "accessible" their favourite franchises, and the Whining Entitled Snowflakes who in the case of Pillards whine about per rest abilities, micromanagement and so on.

 

The conclusion reached, one feels, is that the Grumpies will buy your game anyway but you've got to dumb down, sorry, "streamline". to get the Snowflakes on board.

 

I don't think it works like that. The vast majority, the silent majority, play a lot of Witcher 3, Fallout 4 and yer Dishonoureds, Deus Exs and Tomb Raiders etc, in fact they mostly play stuff like that, but they also like to play something with a bit more substance and challenge to it now and again. But they don't have that much time for this kind of game, so they want to play the best examples of cRPG, strategy/4X games, other genres of substance and challenge. With limited time, they want to make sure the time and effort they know they will have to put into a title like that is going pay off, to be worth it, that it's the real deal, the Full Monty.

 

This is why millions played Civ5, well over a million played PoE, and why CK2, five years after release and about as complex a game as you can get for your money, was in the top 10 of the main Steam charts again a week or so ago after selling what, 2m copies now?. It is also why second string games, such as the new Master of Orion 4X, Tyranny and so on, sell a couple of hundred thousand if they are lucky even though they are not that bad. They are just not the real deal, they have been dumbed down (Stop it, Greg!), sorry, made more "accessible" and that's not what people are after. They get that from Deus Ex etc complete with big budget graphics.

 

But how do this huge silent majority know which of these games is the real deal? They know when the Grumpy Grizzled Old Grognards grudgingly grant the game has some merit and the Snowflakes are whining in full chorus. Thhe Grognards grudging approval is a mandatory requirement, but the Snowflakes whining is the clincher. That's when you know you've got a million seller on your hands.  


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#52
Hynkel

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That's obviously a very specific thing, not "consoles = dumb always". But many fans of old-school CRPGs have become extremely suspicious of consolisation, and with good reason. 

 

Console-specific UI are a big issue it's true, but I think the biggest factor that tend to make games more simplistic is the financial risk. You just can't invest $30M in a game who confronts players to a wall of numbers and text in its very first few minutes. There's a reason why in Mass Effect everything is dubbed, and combat looks like Gears of War and it's not just "consoles", but the will to avoid segmented markets.



#53
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Everything is dubbed because it's superior, but expensive. Full voice acting *FOR THE ****ING WIN*. That's one of the few things PoE could have used, IMHO; more voice acting, always.



#54
Tigranes

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Most voice acting in games are awful. This would only be a minor problem of personal preference, but it is also well known that voice acting is prohibitely expensive, raising costs for everyone (or having people be disappointed), and this wreaks havoc with the writing process. It is well known that because it would be even more expensive and difficult to redo lines or have actors in the same room bouncing lines off each other, the lines tend to be recorded in complete isolation at some random point, and that writers end up being unable to edit dialogue and writing once the voice acting is locked in. And of course, projects where you get artificial limits on your writing because you have to keep voice costs down.


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#55
Blades of Vanatar

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You reckon that there are more 30year olds playing video games then teenagers?

Yes. I'll bet you that 29% of people who play video games are under the age of 18, in fact. Now, a higher percentage of 15 year olds are gamers than 30 year olds, but that's a different statistic entirely.

The people who where born in the late 70's through early 90's make up the majority of video game players today. Sheer math makes it so.

Many of us remember playing the text only Infocom games. I couldn't wait for the next Zork game to come out. Planetfall rocked as did Wishbringer. You youngs pup don't know **** about what gaming really is.... now pull up your pants, they call it 'Under'wear for a reason!

😛

#56
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You reckon that there are more 30year olds playing video games then teenagers?

Yes. I'll bet you that 29% of people who play video games are under the age of 18, in fact. Now, a higher percentage of 15 year olds are gamers than 30 year olds, but that's a different statistic entirely.

The people who where born in the late 70's through early 90's make up the majority of video game players today. Sheer math makes it so.

Many of us remember playing the text only Infocom games. I couldn't wait for the next Zork game to come out. Planetfall rocked as did Wishbringer. You youngs pup don't know **** about what gaming really is.... now pull up your pants, they call it 'Under'wear for a reason!

 

You say that as if I wasn't playing Leather Goddesses of Phobos.



#57
Silent Winter

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Remember, too, that while Skyrim and Tyranny are steam only, Pillars and Torment are sold on GOG too.

Tyranny is also on gog.

Sadly the 50% off coupon for backing PoE2 at a certain tier is Steam-only, otherwise I might be buying it and seeing what all the fuss is about.


Edited by Silent Winter, 19 March 2017 - 05:24 PM.


#58
firkraag888

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Remember, too, that while Skyrim and Tyranny are steam only, Pillars and Torment are sold on GOG too.

Tyranny is also on gog.

Sadly the 50% off coupon for backing PoE2 at a certain tier is Steam-only, otherwise I might be buying it and seeing what all the fuss is about.

 

your not missing out on much

 

The combat is world of warcfaft style: click ......cooldown.....click.....cooldown......click cooldown

 

when you cast a spell you can choose between a square, circle straight line or a cone and you can make either of those green, red, blue or brown. So its basically ok this time I will cast a brown square, this time a blue circle, this time a red straight line

 

So combat is basically :click..... blue square.......cooldown........click....... red line........cooldown......click.........yellow cone......cooldown..........

 

And then when you level up you get a World of Warcraft style leveling tree (so the little kiddies playing can understand it better) that lets you make your circles, squares, cones and straight lines a little bit better.

 

DUMBED DOWN!!!!!!


Edited by firkraag888, 19 March 2017 - 05:43 PM.


#59
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Remember, too, that while Skyrim and Tyranny are steam only, Pillars and Torment are sold on GOG too.

Tyranny is also on gog.

Sadly the 50% off coupon for backing PoE2 at a certain tier is Steam-only, otherwise I might be buying it and seeing what all the fuss is about.

 

your not missing out on much

 

The combat is world of warcfaft style: click ......cooldown.....click.....cooldown......click cooldown

 

when you cast a spell you can choose between a square, circle straight line or a cone and you can make either of those green, red, blue or brown. So its basically ok this time I will cast a brown square, this time a blue circle, this time a red straight line

 

So combat is basically :click..... blue square.......cooldown........click....... red line........cooldown......click.........yellow cone......cooldown..........

 

And then when you level up you get a World of Warcraft style leveling tree (so the little kiddies playing can understand it better) that lets you make you circles, squares, cones and straight lines a bit better.

 

DUMBED DOWN!!!!!!

 

"

when you cast a spell you can choose between a square, circle straight line or a cone and you can make either of those green, red, blue or brown. So its basically ok this time I will cast a brown square, this time a blue circle, this time a red straight line"

You missed a *LOT* of spell sigils, didn't you?


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#60
Aleh1811

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Pillars of eternity (like baldurs gate 2) is a complex game. With a target audience probably consisting of ex infinity engine players, ex D&D players and people in the age bracket of 16-40 year olds.

Im assuming that the bulk of video games sales goes to a target audience of 8-18 year olds.

Of course I'm concerned that obsidian would dumb the game down to target this bigger market. I was simply comparing sales of skyrim and witcher because in my opinion both skyrim and witcher are dumbed down RPGs

Gameplay complexity has nothing to do with the players' age.

 

Complexity has something to do with willingness to invest time and effort into understanding something. A lot of people here got into IE games when they were younger and had much more free time. Now they are older, have a job, kids maybe ; but they play PoE for the nostalgia factor, and since they beat Baldu'rs Gate a million times, playing something like PoE doesn't require the same amount of intellectual investment and "risk taking" (as in, putting money in a game you might not like) as the average player.

 

But the very same BG Veterans demographic probably wouldn't play other complex games they're less familiar with (say, Guilty Gear). Because they don't have anymore the amount of free time they had when they knew every single spell from the DnD rulebooks. 

 

That's the niche game curse. You just don't suddenly become invested in a demanding genre at 40. It takes decades of investment and passion to build such a demographic.

 

I agree. Its very time related. I used to have be able to have an amazing time with large complex games when I was a teenager. Now I always have the feeling that i am negletiing some sort of responsibility when i play them, The only games I play right now are short and action oriented, specially if i can play with friends. Games that require minimal time investment and provide some simple escapism or the opportunity to share time with people i like. I still played this game and will play the sequel simply because baldurs gate 2 (and an obscure pretty bad game called "azure dreams") were basically my childhood. But even the way I play the game has changed. No more long playing sessions.


Edited by Aleh1811, 19 March 2017 - 06:07 PM.





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