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THE FINAL MOST OVERPOWERED CLASS (BUILD) THREAD


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#21
Boeroer

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Then you don't know how to use other classes. He is far and away the weakest class at the end of the game. And dps is not top notch because it's limited to single target damage. And even in this department there will be better choices - as I showed you.

 

That's the main problem of the rogue: he's not "the best" at anything while being really squishy and not versatile at all. If you look at the game from start to finish it may be that he can be ranked no. 1 single target damage dealer by a small margin - because he already starts with Sneak Attack which is awesome to have so early in the game. But even then he is not  overwhelmingly better at that. It doesn't balance out his flaws. Especially in the mid to late game he falls behind quickly compared to other classes.  

 

Speaking of damage: the problem with the character sheet is that certain effects don't find their ways into the statistcs. For example the damage of the animal companion doesn't count towards the ranger's damage. A well skilled ranger with a equally well skilled wolf for example will do hier single target dps than a rogue. Same with a chanter's Dragon chant.

 

By the way the druid doesn't need weapons with on-crit effects. He can achieve the same things with spells, like Returning or Relentless Storm for example. The first is also available per encounter. He only needs to stun an opponent - which is easy - and then hit him with his claws. Crits will follow. 

 

But I guess we could talk about this forever and you wouldn't believe me. We've had this discussions several times and it leads to nothing. I will not convince you unless you see in game what I mean.

 

So I challenge you: :)

 

Show me any rogue build who's good at something (single target damage, single target CC... whatever comes to mind) and I'll show you another class with a build that can do it equally well or better. Show some screenshots or a video how he performs - for example do a hefty (but not too hefty, we don't want to dabble in consumables all the time) encounter like Nalrend's Bounty or his gang in front of the cave and solve it with a rogue and I will show you the same encounter with another class, doing it better. It doesn't have to be solo - you can bring one or two tanks to distract and draw aggro a bit. Or whatever we agree on.

 

I could also start and show you a build and you can counter with a rogue build - how you like it.

 

Let's duel! ;)


Edited by Boeroer, 18 March 2017 - 02:05 AM.

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#22
Livegood118

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If push came to shove and we're talking about maximum balls-to-the-wall output in any one fight difficult fight (Llengrath and the Bog Dragons, for example) I would say the Druid is probably the most powerful class.

 

Relentless Storm is up there with Defensive Mindweb as the hands down most broken/GG ability in the game, so much so that I try not to run with Druids anymore because it can trivialise 95% of the encounters in the game. You get four casts of it and can easily boost the duration to around 25 seconds, pretty much locking down anything that's not immune to stun in a massive radius for 100 seconds. You can then prone anything else with Calling the World's maw. Paralyse Dragons with Hold Beasts. Petrify Dragons and then explode them with Spiritshift. Big damage with spells etc ...

 

A Rogue, by comparison, is just not great. There's some arguments for them reliably providing consistently high single target damage/CC over a range of fights when they've got a good party to support them but overall they're just meh and don't bring that much to the table.

 

I always thought that a good "opening" for the Rogue class that could differentiate it from others would be to provide really good single target CC. This can be accomplished to some extent with stunning weapons but they really should have something like the Ranger's stunning shots so you can do it with super high damage weapons too.



#23
Kaylon

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It's difficult to agree on this subject because everyone has a different playstyle/criteria and classes have different strengths/roles in a party. For me, the strongest classes are those who can solo any encounter in a reliable manner without abusing cheap tactics (kiting, resting, consumables) . For me, from a solo perspective, the rankings are:

1. paladin, chanter, wizard

2. monk, cipher, priest, druid

3. fighter, barbarian, ranger, rogue


Edited by Kaylon, 18 March 2017 - 10:33 PM.


#24
firkraag888

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@boeroer

If you want to build a melee character you have a choice between a fighter, paladin, rogue, barb

By about level 10 my rogue is sturdy enough to hardly ever be killed and he takes down enemies faster then the other classes mentioned above. Far faster.

If you keep having this argument with people on this forum (which you have admitted above) then maybe people have different opinions other then yours and obvisouly someone is wrong and someone is right. Who cares. Me (and others) have built rogues that work very well.

Edited by firkraag888, 18 March 2017 - 08:20 PM.


#25
Boeroer

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If you want to build a melee character you have a choice between a fighter, paladin, rogue, barb, monk, cipher, ranger, druid, wizard, chanter and priest. Because you can build a good melee char out of every class. The one good thing that rogues have though is that their key features work in melee as well as in ranged combat. They are still the weakest class and not best at anything (besides mechanics and using damaging spells).

You can tell me what your rogue does best the whole day and I will tell you that another class can do it better. There's no point in discussing this further if we are not willing to prove it somehow.

By the way I never said that rogues can't work well for you and others. They do good single target damage and therefore can be great for certain situations. I play rogues myself - it's not that I resent them. I used the rogue (in this case Devil of Caroc) for a decent, tanky Badgradr's-Barricade-build as one of the first here in the forum for example. It's good and fun to play. But that wasn't what we started with.
You said that rogues are somewhere in the upper "power tier" of your perception and experience (fair enough if your experience and the way you play the game lead you to that impression).
I then said that rogues are the weakest class and you said they aren't. You said that rogues are no. 1 damage dealers by far and I said they aren't.

Of course someone is wrong and the other is right.

I once had this exact same argument, but the other way round: somebody said that a druid does better single target damage and I was very sure that a rogue is better. He then posted some screenshots of his druid and I rebuild it and compared it to some melee rogues - with dual annihilating sabres, with Tall Grass, with Hours of St. Rumbalt, with Firebrand, with Tidefall, with dual Rimecutters (possibly the highest DPS setup for autoattacks), with dual Bittercut and dual Drawn in Spring even. After I tried all those very special things I never said that rogues are no. 1 single target damages dealers again.

So that's why I suggested the challenge. If you are 100% sure that you are right then this is the way to show me once and for all that rogues are not the weakest class in the game (the only exception is a rogue who specializes in damaging scrolls and spell bindings, like the Sorcerer's Apprentice build. But this is not the kind of rogue most people mean anyway when discussing about rogues).

So, what about the duel? No point in discussing this further. I'm very confident and willing, what about you?

Edited by Boeroer, 18 March 2017 - 10:51 PM.


#26
firkraag888

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^^^^

 

what build can dual wield on effect weapons that proc on crits more consistently then rogues without buffs, potions, scrolls?



#27
Boeroer

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Possibly a barb who attacks a mob and a monk who uses Torment's Reach on a mob. But what does it matter to find some small niche (dual wielding on crit weapons that you find very late in the game without buffs and so on) where rogues are good? In theory, a priest for example could crit more reliably with the right talents and spells that are inherent to his class. He will buff himself to +40 ACC with two spells and add +20% hit to crit conversion with another. Then he uses this bonuses to attack in melee - which is the worst choice...

But what is it good for to find those unimportant niches? If it's great single target CC you are looking for, a fighter will be better, reliably able to prone even dragons. A monk, being able to use Stunning Blows, Skyward Kick and Force of Anguish, can deliver CC more reliably, too. Especially because such abilities get +1 to accuracy per level while using on-crit effects don't.

But why discuss those minor matters? We want to determine if rogues are the weakest class and no. 1 single target guy.

I have the impression you want to chicken out of the challenge. :)

Edited by Boeroer, 18 March 2017 - 11:25 PM.


#28
firkraag888

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so you cant find a build that can?

 

dual wield on effect weapons that proc on crits more consistently then rogues without buffs, potions, scrolls?



#29
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I think I answered that question good enough in my previous post. See the part about barbs and monks. They will generate more crits and therefore prone/stun in a given timespan without buffs, scrolls or potions as long as more than two enemies are attacked. Especially the barb will do at higher levels because he needs no resource like wounds for it and because carnage + accurate carnage will result in +11 accuracy at lvl 16 with carnage hits - give in the barb's carnage more accuracy than the rogue's autoattacks and having the big advantage that he will hit a lot more foes at the same time, thus generating more crits in total. 

Maybe even a melee dual wielding ranger will be able to proc on crit effects as many times with the help of his companion - didn't test that but he could come close. His ACC will be higher but he will have lower hit/drit conversion. But does he need to do that? Nope, because he has stunning shts which also works in melee - thus making on crit effects totally redundant because he will cause stun with every hit. So even the high proc-on-crit rate of a rogue doesn't truely make him best at anything that's relevant.

 

But why are you changing the subject so dramatically from some general statements to this nitpicking? 

 

It sounds a bit like saying (not implying you meant it that way):

 

"Wait a second - your arguments are good and all, BUT: can you find a build that can deal more than 100 damage with a two hander with a single crit at level 4 - twice per encounter? You can't? Haha - there you go! All your arguments from before are wrong because you can't do this special task, nah nah nah nah!".

 

Besides a paladin with Firebrand maybe no one can deal such hits at lvl 4. That doesn't mean the paladin is the strongest dps class or good at anything else than doing strong hits twice per encounter with FoD & Firebrand.

 

Now I'm pretty sure you do not want to accept the challenge. The reasons remain concealed...


Edited by Boeroer, 19 March 2017 - 12:22 AM.

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#30
firkraag888

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^^^^^

That's called deflecting.

You lost the challenge.

No build can land the on crit affects more then a rogue without buffs, potions, scrolls

#31
Boeroer

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It's called chickening out.

Show me a rogue doing a proper encounter - even with sidekicks.
That's how you can determine if a class is weakest or is no.1 single target damage dealer or not. Maybe there are other ways, but picking a single small thing and deducing that this thing makes a whole class strong or weak is not.

You can't determine if a class is weak or not or top single target DPS or not by showing me the likelyness of crits. This can be a hint but nothing more.

It's like - instead of accepting the fair challenge to come up with a good build and show what it can achieve in an encounter - I would ask you to find a class that can petrify enemies other than druid an wizard and then saying "you lost the challenge" if you can't.

My challenge still stands. If you don't want to accept it then fine. But don't come up with alternative meaningless challenges like the one above. Because then this would go on forever - I'm also capable of inventing meaningless challenges - like "0 recovery with a two hander with Vulnerable Attack, plate armor, Cautious Attack and without scrolls and potions". But since that is just pussyfooting around I won't do it.

I don't say you lost my challenge, but if you're not willing to accept it nor even talk about it I assume you have developed some doubts.

Edited by Boeroer, 19 March 2017 - 02:37 AM.


#32
Elric Galad

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^^^^^

That's called deflecting.

You lost the challenge.

No build can land the on crit affects more then a rogue without buffs, potions, scrolls

 

On crit effect (3s stun) are just weaker version of what Druids and Wizz do for breakfast on an AoE.

Barbarian can apply it on an AoE.

Not to mention that ranger can apply Stun twice per attack and on Hit rather than Crit.

 

Rogue is the least versatile class. And what he can do arguably best (single target DPS), he can do marginally better than other class such as Ranger, Druid, Fighter and Monk. And it's not even easy to demonstrate that Rogue do better damages than Druid and Ranger ! As Boeroer says, it has been debatted many times, and no evidence were ever found that Rogues were superior.

He's still weaker at everything less. He's not even as good as Fighter at taking out priority targets... (Ah, Charge !!)

 

You should know that Rogue is consistently seen as #11 class by the community.

https://forums.obsid...s-in-303/page-3

 

 

Furthermore, I suspect your judgement to be totally subejctive.

You list monks as number #11 in your list saying they does not fit your playstyle.

I don't like playing monks either. I don't like having to take damages to use abilities. But I can see why people love them and think they are very powerful.

 

Maybe Rogue fits your playstyle. Rogue has a good early game and is not far below other classes. You may feel it good, and that's because the game is rather well balanced.

But if you are trying to argue about the strongest class about experienced (and math-loving ^^) players, it is not likely that you'll convince them.


Edited by Elric Galad, 19 March 2017 - 02:51 AM.


#33
fiddlesticks

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Come to think of it, a Fighter might actually land on-crit effects more often than a Rogue if we discount potions and buffs. The +20 Accuracy from Disciplined Barrage probably beats the 20% Hit-to-Crit conversion and +8 Melee Accuracy of the Rogue. Only lasts for about 20 seconds, though.



#34
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Technically Disciplined Barrage is a buff. ;)

#35
firkraag888

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ok you got me.

Starcaller, wetoki, cladheliath, are all crap, are not worth it and don't work simply because you don't need them because casters have spells.

Rogues also aren't needed. I think.

#36
Elric Galad

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I don't know whether this is sarcasm, but in case...

 

We're not saying they are all craps and don't work. They are indeed good weapon and their abilities come on top of melee damages.

But the thread is about discussing the most overpowered classes and build. And they are not. This is simple as that.


Edited by Elric Galad, 19 March 2017 - 05:23 AM.


#37
Boeroer

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ok you got me.

Starcaller, wetoki, cladheliath, are all crap, are not worth it and don't work simply because you don't need them because casters have spells.

Rogues also aren't needed. I think.

Please don't be sarcastic. Nobody said or meant that. We are just saying that those weapons or the usage of them don't prove anything around the question "weakest class/best damage dealer".
Of course those are great weapons and they improve a melee character's performance. But not only the performance of rogues. Rogues do more crits than most other classes and maybe the most crits when it comes to single targets - but that doesn't make them the best damage dealer or a powerfull class per se. It's not that other classes don't crit at all or something like that.


Edited by Boeroer, 19 March 2017 - 05:31 AM.

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#38
firkraag888

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^^^^^

You do realise you are trying that to convince me that a rogue built for inflicting critical hits dual weilding any 2 of those 3 weapons listed above with on crit effects is one of the weakest builds in the game?

You cant be serious.

Edited by firkraag888, 19 March 2017 - 05:34 AM.


#39
Livegood118

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This is kind of the problem I identified in my original posts in this thread. It’s very hard to rate the classes without looking at specific jobs that need to be accomplished, for example:

 
– Single Target Damage
– AoE Damage
– Hard CC (Area)
– Soft CC (Area)
– CC (Single Target)
– Tanking
– Support/Buffs
 
If we did this with the Rogue, we'd probably get:
 
– Single Target Damage, A
– AoE Damage, C+ (If you want to use scrolls), D otherwise
– Hard CC (Area), B- if scrolls, D otherwise
– Soft CC (Area), D
– CC (Single Target), B+
– Tanking, C-
– Support/Buffs, D
– Need to rest © (Low health)
 
Then with the Druid, we get:
 
– Single Target Damage (B+/A-)
– AoE Damage, A
– Hard CC (Area), A
– Soft CC (Area), B+
– CC (Single Target), A
– Tanking, B
– Support/Buffs, B+
– Need to Rest, C- (Vancian Caster)
 
This kind of gives a better indication of the different strengths and weaknesses of the characters.


#40
indika_tates

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Because I'm awake now anyways I searched for the discussion and also found some nice screenshots within it:

 

http://forums.obsidi...-2#entry1869590

 

Whatever - I think most of us agree that the priest may be no. 1 on the power level. He can do anything: buffs, damage, healing - only CC is a bit meh.

 

Doesn't matter if rogue carries the red lantern or not.

 

If you want to look at it that way a spirit shifted druid will out dps any melee character with the rogue being at the top of that list. What is the point in having a Monk, fighter, Paladin or a Rogue? Just Roll 6 druids and keep spirit shifting.

 

By the time a druid spirit shifts and positions for melee you cant really get much off.

 

 Your also not taking into consideration the weapons the rogue can weild with its on crit effects and you haven't taken into consideration the amount of time the rogue will criticaly hit either.

 

The Rogue is far and away the highest dps class available in the game. Every Time I roll a rogue he single handedly clears the whole screen quicker then my entire party combined and stun/ prone locks them while doing it

 

 

On POTD your rogue dies no matter what you do. Reckless assault + low deflection + foes rogue apetite means your rogue is on the ground more time than he's fighting. I tried every build, ranged, DW, used every potion at my disposal, every buff, healing from other party members, invisibility items. It doesn't matter. It's not worth it having a rogue in your party.

 

Take a walk to the Abbey or Cradgholt and tell me if your rogue can manage to stay alive more than 15 seconds.


Edited by indika_tates, 19 March 2017 - 05:44 AM.





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