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Proposed new health system, i.e. the one time I'll complain


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#21
lettiv

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Don't forget that nothing's set in stone yet.

Considering that both Josh Sawyer and Bobby Null have confirmed their preference for how health and endurance were implemented in POE we might just end up with the same system in Deadfire.

 

Why would they change it anyway? It's working as intended.

At least that's how I see it.


Edited by lettiv, 04 March 2017 - 03:13 PM.

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#22
Madscientist

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The injury system worked fine in Drakensang. They're already in the game, so I have no problem with it.

 

I must say that I also liked Drakensang. For those who did not play it: When you got hit and you took more damage than your constitution value, you must make a saving throw with your self control value (not sure about the english name, I played in german) and if it failed you got a wound which lowered all your stats.

 

Sounds like spiral of death.

 

 

It is. That means if you get a wound you should heal it ASAP or soon you will have more wounds.

It means you should always have a healing spell and some herbs ready when you go to combat. Makes sense to me.

 

This is a good way to kill ogres or other enemies with lots of HP but little defense.

And just in case: No, I do not suggest adding this system to PoE2.



#23
tinysalamander

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 Sounds like spiral of death.

 

 

It is. That means if you get a wound you should heal it ASAP or soon you will have more wounds.

It means you should always have a healing spell and some herbs ready when you go to combat. Makes sense to me.

 

This is a good way to kill ogres or other enemies with lots of HP but little defense.

And just in case: No, I do not suggest adding this system to PoE2.

 

 

I think it is bad design, personally. In computer-based games at the very least. Those ogres wouldn’t mind getting wounds and die, that’s their role in this game, to appear fresh and to die. You, on the other hand, will have plenty chances to be caught in the spiral of death.

 

It also heavily penalizes those who aren’t good at the game in the first place while potentially doing nothing or not much at all to those who are good which seems countproductive in computer-based game to me. At least at this scale.



#24
Fardragon

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There is no way to design a "perfect" health system. The current PoE system aint broke, I wouldn't waste time trying to fix it.

 

 

In particular, I would not want to see a system based arround the idea of frequent face-planting.


Edited by Fardragon, 05 March 2017 - 03:31 AM.

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#25
Ninjamestari

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I seriously don't understand what was wrong with the old, tried and true, "once your hitpoints drop to zero, you die" approach.


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#26
Torm51

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l

 

- I liked the health/endurance system of PoE and I see no reason to change it.

 

- I disliked the injury system in Tyranny. I made a suggestion in the tyranny forum to make it better. At least you should see at which point will you get an injury.

 

- I agree with the OP.

DA:O had an injury system and I always reloaded when a char got K.O. unless it was in a long boss battle and I was about to win (Don´t want to have the whole cut szene and the long battle again.)

 

- The health/endurance system forced you to think more about stategy. You could not put one tank in front of the dragon and let him drink 100 large potions in a row. He would run out of health at some point. I think this is good.

bah common the challenge is great.  I love the punishment.  Mess it up and your team suffers.


Edited by Torm51, 05 March 2017 - 11:16 AM.


#27
Gregorovitch

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I think the health/endurance system coupled withh the camping supplies restriction in PoE was an excellent system. Sure, some people got fed up with running off to the shops all the time to be able to rest, but bascially the system encouraged developing good combat tactics enabling experienceing the combat system to the full and accuracy and economy in spell/ability selection. In short it worked very well. It dealt with the BG rest spam problem brilliantly and it encouraged people to learn to play well in all departments, and playing well increases your enjoyment of a game IMO.

 

My benchmark for PoE on PotD was 3/4 standard encounters per rest or one major boss battle to start with. Later I got better than that and could drive through 5,6,7 encounters per rest, [edit] which, just to be clear on the point, meant that, with most dungeons and areas having the odd additional camping supply avaiable via loot, Iwas able to complete most of them within the two camping supply allowance, but not without accuracy, care and economy, and that is in my view exactly as it should be - it was very well balanced.

 

Injuries that debuff the charcacter and need a rest to fix are going to be an absolute PITA. One lucky crit from some miserable Xaurip archer and bang goes another rest, and off to the shops it is /sigh/

 

If it ain't broke don't fix it.


Edited by Gregorovitch, 06 March 2017 - 09:42 AM.

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#28
FlintlockJazz

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Put me down for liking the old Health/Endurance system.  I'm not so keen on this new thingy-system, sounds too abusable at best, and punishing to those who don't abuse it and play it properly (as Gregorovitch has said above, one lucky crit...).  It works in some tabletop game?  That's great, but this is a CRPG and what is great in tabletop doesn't always translate over to digital.  No, I'm gonna be annoying and say I am not liking the sound of this change so far, whereas the previous system I loved from the moment I heard it.


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#29
NegativeEdge

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I think the health/endurance system coupled withh the camping supplies restriction in PoE was an excellent system. Sure, some people got fed up with running off to the shops all the time to be able to rest, but bascially the system encouraged developing good combat tactics enabling experienceing the combat system to the full and accuracy and economy in spell/ability selection. In short it worked very well. 

 

But that's not how people played - they unloaded their spell books every encounter, rested, then and ran back to town to replenish supplies, often half way through a dungeon or area.

 

It dealt with the BG rest spam problem brilliantly 

 

BG didn't have a 'rest spam problem'. The player may have but not the game. It dissuaded resting with ambushes (though these should have been more punishing and frequent) and the superior original did not allow 'rest until healed'.

 

 

 it encouraged people to learn to play well in all departments,

 

No it didn't.


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#30
Daled

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I totally agree, I loved the Endurance/Health system since I first heard of it.

Taking a hit  (every single one) meant losing permanently hp (until resting) but on the other end wasn't too bad since it didn't penalized your characters with malus or something like that, this system fixed a number of things:

 

-Being hit becoming meaningless because at the end of the encounter you'll be healed (or worse you have the chore to manually use magic/potions to heal)

 

-Since every single hit has an impact it isn't a "binary" system that as long as you aren't knockdown you are fine and you won't get any kind of penalty (and likely be healed at the end of combat)

 

-Infinite healing during combat

 

With the plus of limited resting supplies to put a stop at spamming and give a real impact to the system, this or any other type.

 

I really hope they'll think about keeping this system in place  :grin:

 

(sorry for the bad english)



#31
rjshae

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I think the health/endurance system coupled withh the camping supplies restriction in PoE was an excellent system. Sure, some people got fed up with running off to the shops all the time to be able to rest, but bascially the system encouraged developing good combat tactics enabling experienceing the combat system to the full and accuracy and economy in spell/ability selection. In short it worked very well. 

 

But that's not how people played - they unloaded their spell books every encounter, rested, then and ran back to town to replenish supplies, often half way through a dungeon or area.

 

Which people? I didn't. There was typically a camping supply or two to be found in each significant dungeon, so I managed the supply and lived with some damage and per-rest ability loss. At higher levels, magic items helped with the extra spell slots, as did spell mastery. I usually only withdrew for supplies if I got clobbered a few times, which is what you'd expect.


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#32
NegativeEdge

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Well, you might expect it but sometimes reality confounds our expectations. I'm sorry I don't have a source on hand but the devs have talked about it somewhere and the fact that they're emphasising per-encounter over per-rest in PoE2 is in line with 'solving' the problem of people nuking everything that moves then complaining about having to rest or return to an inn.



#33
rjshae

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Well, you might expect it but sometimes reality confounds our expectations. I'm sorry I don't have a source on hand but the devs have talked about it somewhere and the fact that they're emphasising per-encounter over per-rest in PoE2 is in line with 'solving' the problem of people nuking everything that moves then complaining about having to rest or return to an inn.

 

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, I guess. It wouldn't be my preference.



#34
Messier-31

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godmode on, problem solved


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#35
tinysalamander

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Nuking everything is a good idea, though, when you don’t yet know what a given kind of monster can do since things can easily go south if you had a bad start. We’ll see how those changes… change things like that.


Edited by tinysalamander, 06 March 2017 - 09:05 PM.


#36
Ninjamestari

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I think obsidian has fallen to the trap of trying to fix something that ain't broken here. I really don't like the endurance system, as that also was a fix to a problem that didn't exist. Why can't people just stick to basics and build upon that instead of trying to make these fancy new systems that don't serve any purpose what so ever.



#37
JerekKruger

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Put me down as someone who'd prefer the Health/Endurance system of PoE over the new proposed system.


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#38
FlintlockJazz

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Well, you might expect it but sometimes reality confounds our expectations. I'm sorry I don't have a source on hand but the devs have talked about it somewhere and the fact that they're emphasising per-encounter over per-rest in PoE2 is in line with 'solving' the problem of people nuking everything that moves then complaining about having to rest or return to an inn.

 

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, I guess. It wouldn't be my preference.

 

That's pretty much what I suspect is happening: those who didn't like the system complained and shouted on the forums while those who did like it just got on with it because, well, they liked it so why would they complain?  As a result, it looked like more people complained than there actually were.  Most people I have actually spoken to in person liked the system, and I seriously doubt the average player just nuked every encounter and then ran back to town. 


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#39
Ninjamestari

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Well, you might expect it but sometimes reality confounds our expectations. I'm sorry I don't have a source on hand but the devs have talked about it somewhere and the fact that they're emphasising per-encounter over per-rest in PoE2 is in line with 'solving' the problem of people nuking everything that moves then complaining about having to rest or return to an inn.

 

The squeaky wheel gets the grease, I guess. It wouldn't be my preference.

 

That's pretty much what I suspect is happening: those who didn't like the system complained and shouted on the forums while those who did like it just got on with it because, well, they liked it so why would they complain?  As a result, it looked like more people complained than there actually were.  Most people I have actually spoken to in person liked the system, and I seriously doubt the average player just nuked every encounter and then ran back to town. 

 

 

I bet the average player simply played a Cipher or some other class that didn't have vancian mechanics.



#40
Torm51

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Put me down as someone who'd prefer the Health/Endurance system of PoE over the new proposed system.

same here.


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