Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

#Deadfire Q&A Twitch Stream with Josh Sawyer and Lead Designer Bobby Null


  • Please log in to reply
68 replies to this topic

#41
Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

Dr. Hieronymous Alloy

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 643 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

It's also just fine for each progressive level up to give you "less", subjectively speaking, as long as the rate of change is proportionally constant. You play less and less of the game at or above each successively higher level.



#42
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7651 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Yeah - also, a percentage bonus based on actual stats would lead to absurd and exponential power growth.



#43
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1517 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Okay that's true, but surely Max's point was that in the case of Empower it's a problem.

Exactly)

But MaxQuest - that's the case for all things that get raised by a fixed amount every level. Like deflection, endurance, accuracy and so on. The relative gain of +10 accuracy is lower on higher levels than it is on lower. If you have 30 ACC and gain +10 ACC it's a bigger increase (percentage wise) than getting raised from 90 to 100.

Intrinsic diminishing returns by themselves are not a problem. (imho well-balanced intrinsic returns are actually a god send)
The problem is if there is too big discrepancy in relative gain that we get from +m to a stat in:
- situation when that stat is low, versus
- situation when that stat is high

Yeah - but even then my thinking is: Why is this a problem of Empower while it's not a problem with all the other stats which get absolute bonuses on level up (and not percentage based ones)?

Let me explain, why I see the problem in Empower, but not in the aforementioned: accuracy, deflection, endurance.

1. Accuracy (in PoE1)

Spoiler

2. Deflection (in PoE1)
Spoiler

3. Endurance (Constitution) (in PoE1)
Spoiler

So as we have seen, the above stats although do have intistic diminishing returns, do not result in a problem. Because their gradual decline in relative gain from +flat value; is counter-weighted.

 
Now we have arrived to Empower.
Spoiler

 
TL.DR. I've started from asserting that Empower providing +3 flat bonus to current power level can lead to problems. And ended up with... the conclusion that it can actually be balanced) But it heavily depends on scaling formula.

P.S. Yeah, I know, I am overthinking it :)


Edited by MaxQuest, 27 February 2017 - 04:02 AM.

  • JerekKruger, TheMetaphysician, Boeroer and 2 others like this

#44
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7651 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

That's what I thought: I all depends what you do with (high level) Empower. :)

 

For example I had the idea that they could just add other, additional effects (to the missiles in this case) if your power level is just high enough. That way you could always balance those things out if you feel a mere +3 bonus is not sufficient.

 

It may indeed be that during the beta phase it turns out that the linear rise of Empower feels too weak at higher levels - as you feared. But there are a lot of things you can do then (like you pointed out).

 

Still good that somebody points out those little hooks. So thanks! :)

I mean look at bashing. If I had attended the PoE1 beta I would have insisted that this stuff gets fixed. Or the monk's Lightning Strikes doing only +10% lash which was always eaten up by enemies' DR and thus was useless. If somebody would have guessed that right from the start they wouldn't have had to patch it. :)


  • MaxQuest likes this

#45
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2310 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Still good that somebody points out those little hooks. So thanks! :)

 

Definitely. It hadn't occurred to me even though it's quite an obvious (potential) flaw in the system.

 

I mean look at bashing. If I had attended the PoE1 beta I would have insisted that this stuff gets fixed. Or the monk's Lightning Strikes doing only +10% lash which was always eaten up by enemies' DR and thus was useless. If somebody would have guessed that right from the start they wouldn't have had to patch it.  :)

 

Have you pledged enough for beta access for Deadfire? If so, we can blame you for every problem that remains on release ;)

 

More seriously, I will try to spend some of my beta time actually testing things rather than simply messing around for a few hours then waiting for release.


Edited by JerekKruger, 27 February 2017 - 05:28 AM.

  • Boeroer likes this

#46
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1517 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

That's what I thought: I all depends what you do with (high level) Empower. :)
 
For example I had the idea that they could just add other, additional effects (to the missiles in this case) if your power level is just high enough. That way you could always balance those things out if you feel a mere +3 bonus is not sufficient.

Yeap. Adding additional/secondary effects could both adjust the balance, and be actually fun. Missiles interrupting / pushing. Fireball knockbacking or adding a small dot / short panic effect / whatever)

I also had an idea of Empower slightly increasing penetration of the affected spell. But after some thought, decided that is should go to Might stat instead. As Might no longer has a counter-weight in form of flat DR.
 

Still good that somebody points out those little hooks. So thanks! :)
I mean look at bashing. If I had attended the PoE1 beta I would have insisted that this stuff gets fixed. Or the monk's Lightning Strikes doing only +10% lash which was always eaten up by enemies' DR and thus was useless. If somebody would have guessed that right from the start they wouldn't have had to patch it. :)

Exactly)
v3.0+ is quite well balanced, but looking at old threads... *shakes his head*. 
I mean it is great that Obsidian is open towards keeping iterating. But some of potential problems we indeed can theorycraft in advance, provided we have enough info. So there would be no need in fixing it. Also it would allow forum mech posts and wiki of being relevant and up-to-date for longer.

Edited by MaxQuest, 27 February 2017 - 05:38 AM.

  • AndreaColombo, TheMetaphysician and Boeroer like this

#47
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7651 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Yes. I finally plegded for the beta access even though I don't have any windows OS. Maybe I will get one or play the game via wine (although I cringe at that thought). I just like to think that I could discover some game breaking (Carnage + Jolting Touch or Retaliation) or lame (Lightning Strikes: +10% lash, Bashing) stuff and prevent that from finding its way into the final game - thus preventing endless patching to a certain extend. Don't know if this will happen, but one can dream. ;)


Edited by Boeroer, 27 February 2017 - 07:29 AM.


#48
ushas

ushas

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 200 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Yeah, those additional/secondary effects would be also interesting. Maybe even something unique to empower, which isn't gainable simply by getting corresponding levels or stats?

Just in case it wasn't already mentioned, Josh Sawyer in the reddit Q&A said that

You can use per-rest Empower resources to make a power extra-strong or to replenish your per-encounter resources in long fights.

​​
Not sure how it will look like. Perhaps, when already reached spell level quota, you can decide that you want to use a spell from that level again, and are able to do that in exchange for empower stuff...

Regarding what you have written, @MaxQuest, it's well thought out and interesting. Most of the time I'm just lurking, but I always like to read what you guys have to say about systems. It seems to me that we lack the needed info. Not only about the underlying by developer's words significantly changed class system. But also as you have yourself already touched at the end of the post, one would need take into account other progressions going on in the game -- the equipment, accumulation of abilities, enemies, even party composition, etc.

I agree that the proposed formula looks useful for tuning and "c" ought to be > 0, but actually also because I think nonlinear progression of classes may not be bad thing, especially when one takes into account all the other external effects (eg. the equipment progression). As such using anecdotal example, in PoE1 I haven't minded at all diminishing returns you have mentioned, on the contrary, I've eventually wished we don't get any level ups in those things (because how powerful relative to the opposition we can get). Here they also plan to make multi-classed characters within 75%-85% power of a single-classed character. A single-classed character have at hand more class based abilities to choose from and all of them use the same high power source, so even when the relative gain in isolation wouldn't look so good compare to lower levels, he might be quiet effective character overall. But it's impossible for me to evaluate those things without bigger picture, so I apologize for not giving any numbers.

On a side note, I don't dig why it has to be a system where we are required to use together class level, power level and power points for each class. I sympathize with the hard work of UI designers. From the distance it seems to me that one can simply continue the transformation into using just power points and distributing them at will between two classes. You can still gate access to abilities or spell levels by required class power points instead of class levels. Even when it's slightly different, one doesn't reach high level spells unless literally progressing corresponding source points. It may be also possible to use power points instead power levels in your calculations, and have the sneak attack progressed more gradually.



#49
ushas

ushas

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 200 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Yes. I finally plegded for the beta access even though I don't have any windows OS. Maybe I will get one or play the game via wine (although I cringe at that thought). I just like to think that I could discover some game breaking (Carnage + Jolting Touch or Retaliation) or lame (Lightning Strikes: +10% lash, Bashing) stuff and prevent that from finding its way into the final game - thus preventing endless patching to a certain extend. Don't know if this will happen, but one can dream. ;)

I hope you will not become mad at me with wine :biggrin:

​Btw. I recall maintaining one thread about trap issues at the end of beta, I think it got finally fixed in 3.0+ (at least most of the problems I think). So don't worry. ;)

But on more serious note, how do you guys like the effectiveness of forums environment? I remember shmerl tried to establish community bug tracker at github but without the official support it's not really viable.


Edited by ushas, 28 February 2017 - 05:21 PM.

  • Boeroer likes this

#50
Madscientist

Madscientist

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 709 posts
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Lots of people (including myself) have posted lots of bugs in the forum. Most of these issues have been fixed, although they managed to add some new bugs along the way.

So I think the forum effectiveness is OK.

 

The game was very buggy at release and I had to quit my first playthrough because of this.

I started again and finished the game a few patches later, it was much better than.

With version 3.0+ the game is well balanced (compared to most other single player RPG) and usually you can play it without facing game breaking problems. There is no game that is completely bug free.

 

I was not in the beta for PoE1, so I cannot say which problems have been solved before release and what could have been solved if you did the beta testing.

The PoE1 system has been created from scratch and there where lots of changes what each stat does and some other things. Now we have a system that works quite well most of the time. Tyranny (at release) was much better than PoE1 (at release). I could finish the first version without big problems. There were some bugs but most of them have been fixed. Because of the classless skill system the balance has been lost and it is easy to make very powerful (or very useless) chars. Some new things from tyranny will be in PoE2 (but fortuanatly not the same classless skill based system).

 

Now we have a very solid basic system for PoE2. The main issue of beta testing will be to test if some game mechanics and class abilities lead to totally underwhelming or overpowered results.


  • AndreaColombo likes this

#51
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7651 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

As far as I know, PoE mechanics changed quite a bit from beta to release. There were some things which didn't work out as intended. But that's what a beta is for. :)



#52
Leferd

Leferd

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 2857 posts
  • Location:California Republic
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Aarik, 

 

You guys used to post the Kickstarter updates on the announcements and news sections of the Pillars 1 forums. Are you going to eventually do the same over here? This way, the community will have a consolidated place to castigate politely discuss the items for each update.


  • draego likes this

#53
AndreaColombo

AndreaColombo

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 3598 posts
  • Location:Budapest (HUN)
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
IIRC the beta for PoE 1 saw a lot of back and forth interaction between developers and players. There were a lot of bugs that got fixed and stuff that got polished. Sure, the game released still rough around the edges but that's to be expected given the context (new engine, game mechanics, and setting to build from the ground up; new development tools to familiarize with; new pipelines to establish; budgetary constraints.)

This time around I'll break my no-Steam policy and actively partake the Deadfire beta :)

#54
Madscientist

Madscientist

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 709 posts
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

OK, with Boeroer, MaxQuest, Andrea and me in the beta, PoE2 will be fantastic :)

 

I just play the game (on normal or hard) and report everything I find.

There was exactly one time where I used a console command: In BGT (BG1+2 combined) I saved and loaded a lot on the werewolf island. This produced the infinite stacking bug (of werewolf regeneration) and so the boss was fully healed a moment after I hit him with the stronges attack I could possibly make. There was no fair way to kill him. I still feel bad because of this.

Do you search through the code when you want to find out how things work?

 

Now I need to finish TToN before the beta starts. I will start after the next patch comes out (PoE1 told me: never play at release day) and I am a really slow player.


  • AndreaColombo, Boeroer and MaxQuest like this

#55
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7651 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

:)

 

I don't look into the PoE code. I'm looking into code all day and don't want to do it in my free time. ;)

 

I just like to try out things, mostly weird ideas. I also did that when I played Pen & Paper RPGs since I was 16 or so.

 

A lot of times a description sounds meh or a talent or ability seems to be underpowered - but with the right circumstances it can turn into game breaking stuff. One example is the cipher/retaliation combo (nerfed now) that turned out to be OP once you were able to stack multiple retaliations. There was no need to attack by yourself anymore and could spam cipher powers all the time without the need to regain focus with your weapon.

Another example (it's still in the game) is Spelltongue + carnage + buffs.  I don't think you can find a lot of such things if you're looking into code. But sure as hell I don't know what's really going on half of the time - because I don't check the code how it works. I only know it works somehow in the game and that it's fun. :)

 

I know MaxQuest and Loren Tyr (sad he isn't around any more) have insight into the code and know in depth what's going on under the hood. They also made some very useful suggestions how to fix certain bugs and so on.

 

And OBS should really listen to AndreaColombo's style consulting. And put a reference to the LoP into PoE2! ;)


Edited by Boeroer, 02 March 2017 - 01:15 AM.

  • AndreaColombo and MaxQuest like this

#56
compleCCity

compleCCity

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 24 posts
  • Location:Lower Saxony, Germany
  • Steam:compleCCity
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

Will this one be upped to YouTube, too, like the others?



#57
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7651 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
Why don't you watch it on twitch.tv/obsidian?

There's a menu option called "Videos" where you can find them all.

#58
compleCCity

compleCCity

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 24 posts
  • Location:Lower Saxony, Germany
  • Steam:compleCCity
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer

I asked, because the three older ones are on Obsidian's YT channel as well, and because I like to embed them. Embedding Twitch produces higher page load times than YT, in my experience.


  • Boeroer likes this

#59
Boeroer

Boeroer

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 7651 posts
  • Location:Bucharest, Romania
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Ah, ok. Didn't know that.



#60
ShadySands

ShadySands

    The Guy on the Couch of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 2552 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
I just like the player on YouTube a lot better than on Twitch. Sometimes I just download the streams and watch them offline if there is no YouTube mirror. Just personal preference.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users