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Politics 2017 Part 3


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#521
Gromnir

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100 years  ago? 1917? definite weren't more free for blacks, native americans, asians and others.  weren't more free for women, and they were/are better than 1/2 the population, yes?  1917 is also the year the infamous espionage act(s) o' 1917 were made law.  the Court didn't get around to knocking some o' the free speech teeth abridgements outta the act 'til 1969 with brandenburg v. ohio. 

 

also, folks ignore our frequent lessons 'bout the dangers o' democracy.  contrary to what most folks believe, democracy ain't what protects your freedoms.  democracy is the danger, not the solution.  our checks and balances which make our government so ineffective is what largely protects folks.  culture also protects.  but democracy?  democracy is the majority, and the majority has never been a trustworthy repository o' freedom.  the majority is petty and fearful and often very stoopid.  for much o' US history, the fed government had very little say regarding how States protected freedoms o' citizens. never forget that the bill o' rights is a check on democracy, and that check were a relative weak limit for much o' US history.

 

oh, and absolute liberty rare equates to universal freedom.  those with money and power have an advantage in maintaining the status quo. those w/o are typical too busy trying to make ends meet to serious devote energy to changing the system. so in the early 1900s we got stuff such as child coal miners

 

https://arlweb.msha....ITTLE/PAGE1.asp

 

and women working in factories in nyc

 

http://www.history.c...shirtwaist-fire

 

give folks a myth o' equal opportunity and call it freedom? 

 

is seeming paradoxical, but absolute liberty do not result in perfect freedom.  hobbes' state of nature is absolute liberty, but it ain't what most o' us think o' as freedom. given human nature, absolute liberty, freedom from any kinda government constraint, inevitable results in the exploitation o' man by his fellow man.

 

dunno, but particular as a native american, am having little difficulty proclaiming with certainty our greater freedom today than were enjoyed by our great grandparents and grandparents.

 

Sioux-Squaws-Waiting-for-Rations-at-Pine


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#522
Guard Dog

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Yes Gromnir, humans are awful SOBs who, even here in these supposedly enlightened shores, have often fallen short of honoring the kinship between all of us. And yes absolute liberty is anarchy, something no one is asking for. I'll trot out one of my favorite James Madison quotes here: "What is government itself but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary."

 

And yes Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on the lunch menu. To quote Madison again "There is no maxim, in my opinion, which is more liable to be misapplied, and which, therefore, more needs elucidation, than the current one, that the interest of the majority is the political standard of right and wrong." As you pointed out that is why we don't live in a democracy.

 

All that said I don't think it's at all a stretch to wonder if we have passed Socrates "fair and glorious beginning out of which spring tyranny"  when you can go to jail for massaging a horse or the police shut down a child's neighborhood lemonade stand. We ARE becoming far less free by the very minute and it horrifies me to see the acquiescence to it because the Executive or Legislatures measuring everyone for chains is on "their team".  Undercutting Val's entire argument because things used to be worse in many ways  misses the point he was making.

 

Like I said repeatedly in the months before November. If you continue to choose the lesser of two evils all you get is evil. In every election there are names on the ballot that believe in a balance between liberty and the power of the Government and names that don't. 129 million Americans voted for a name that didn't.



#523
Gromnir

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 Undercutting Val's entire argument because things used to be worse in many ways  misses the point he was making.

 

 

am thinking you vast understate the ways in which things were worse 100 years ago, and if children's lemonade stand closures bother you, then am wondering how you feel 'bout fact that the loving case were 1967? heck, were a considerable time post civil war before most States would recognize the possibility o' a black woman being raped by a white man. ain't just 'bout race neither. upton sinclair's protagonist in the jungle, published in 1906, were lithuanian. the accurate depiction o' horrors faced by an immigrant working in the chicago meatpacking industry were vivid documented and so offended the sensibilities o' the elite o' boston that the book were banned in that city. banned books? want us to recite the history of banned books in, of all places, the US of A?  such bannings is largely a thing o' the past, and is limited to vague community standards of "obscene," but the First Amendment weren't always so protective o' authors or artists.

 

100 years ago v. today?  were our personal freedoms more at risk then or now? sure, technology allows the Government greater access to our privacy, but the notion o' privacy as a protected freedom is actual a recent legal invention.  *shrug*  not even a second does we need consider which time were having more more o' our freedoms protected.

 

http://www.history.c...ry/wounded-knee

 

not one second.


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#524
Guard Dog

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It's ironic that you point out Wounded Knee when I would say that is a perfect example of heavy handed government needing it's fangs pulled. And as you already know I'm firmly on the side of the plaintiffs in both the Loving and Obgerfell cases.

 

I think you and I were having two different conversations. You are pointing at the past and trying to tell me how much better things are now. I'm pointing at now and trying to tell you how much worse they are than they should be.



#525
Pidesco

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I think you and I were having two different conversations. You are pointing at the past and trying to tell me how much better things are now. I'm pointing at now and trying to tell you how much worse they are than they should be.

 

Valsuelm specifically said things were safer and freer 100 years ago, not that things should be better they are now. That improvement is currently required would brook no argument from anyone, I'd say. To say that things are worse now than before regarding safety and freedom is patently silly, be it 30, 50, 70 or 100 years ago.

 

Relevant:


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#526
Guard Dog

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I'm not arguing Val's points. He can do that himself. I just said because things are better now in many ways than they used to be does not mean they are not getting worse right now. Grom undercut Val's argument on the details. I'm just pointing out that despite being factually incorrect as far as dates and history go there is still a valid point here. The needle on the authoritarian vs liberty meter is on the wrong side of the median.


Edited by Guard Dog, Today, 01:53 AM.


#527
BruceVC

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I'm not arguing Val's points. He can do that himself. I just said because things are better now in many ways than they used to be does not mean they are not getting worse right now. Grom undercut Val's argument on the details. I'm just pointing out that despite being factually incorrect as far as dates and history go there is still a valid point here. The needle on the authoritarian vs liberty meter is on the wrong side of the median.

GD what would you say are worse nowadays or what do you think is getting worse? 






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