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List of Subclasses as we learn about them.

Subclasses Sub-classes

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#41
Leeuwenhart

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To be honest
A drug using warrior can be amazing.

Geralt of Rivia (The Witcher) uses drugs all the time.

Bane. One of the worst enemies of Batman. Uses drugs.

Elric. The albino emperor of Melnibone needs his drugs to be able to fight or else is too weak.

Or if you like it asian...
The Drunken Master is an archetype of monk that fights better because of drugs.

I could go on. Just to show it isnt far fetched and out of nowhere.
Its well established.

Also: this monk is more based on a flaggelant who would whip themselves into a high/frenzy. So be glad he isnt wearing leather and a whip hahaha
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#42
DCParry

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To be honest
A drug using warrior can be amazing.
Geralt of Rivia (The Witcher) uses drugs all the time.
Bane. One of the worst enemies of Batman. Uses drugs.
Elric. The albino emperor of Melnibone needs his drugs to be able to fight or else is too weak.
Or if you like it asian...
The Drunken Master is an archetype of monk that fights better because of drugs.
I could go on. Just to show it isnt far fetched and out of nowhere.
Its well established.
Also: this monk is more based on a flaggelant who would whip themselves into a high/frenzy. So be glad he isnt wearing leather and a whip hahaha


Oh, oh, I do so hope the second sub-class for the monk is a gimp.

Enchanted ball-gags and cat suits for all!
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#43
SaruNi

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There are also real-life examples of present-day martial arts masters who attribute some of their abilities to smoking a lot of pot: Joe Rogan (United States Tae Kwon Do national champion, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu Black Belt, widely recognized as one of the best mixed martial arts commentators and the best of the UFC), renowned jiu-jitsu master Eddie Bravo, and high-ranked mixed martial arts fighters Nick and Nate Diaz.

 

Also consider all the great martial artists who have tested positive for Performance-Enhancing Drugs in the last few years:

 

Anderson Silva

Lyoto Machida 

Jon Jones

Vitor Belfort

Royce Gracie

 

If PEDs weren't currently banned, almost all serious high-level martial arts fighters would take them.

 

In Eastern monastic traditions, use of intoxicants is discouraged, but use of stimulants (mostly green tea) is encouraged. The goal is to become more awake and more  perceptive. There was just a huge meth bust at a Buddhist monastery in Myanmar (Burmese Buddhism has been tremendously influential, and Myanmar has a fantastic martial art called Lethwei that is like Muay Thai but with headbutts and they compete in it as a full-contact sport):

 

https://www.theguard...nastery-myanmar

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lethwei

 

As for drug use in canonical fantasy and the mythology/religious practice that it's based on:

 

Tolkien - Pipeweed, lembas

Robert E. Howard - Black lotus (origin of the MG:T card?)

George R. R. Martin - Milk of the poppy, shade of the evening, sourleaf

Steven Erikson - D'bayang, Durhang, Kaff, Khall leaf, Neth berries, Uthurl

Michael Moor**** - drugs used by main/title character Elric (one of my childhood favorites)

Dune (scifi as well as fantasy, but I'd count it) - the Spice
Robin Hobb - drugs used by main character Prince Regal in The Farseer Trilogy 
Patrick Rothfuss - Sweateaters, denner resin
Brian Saunderson - Firemoss
R. Scott Bakker (possibly the best fantasy writer now) - Chanv, qirri
Almost everybody - Alcohol
 
Norse mythology - skáldskapar mjaðar
Ancient Greco-Roman - Alcohol to achieve ecstatic trance in worship of Bacchus/Dionysus
Sanskrit - Soma
 
Also, Deadfire Archipelago is supposed to be more multicultural, and there are plenty of examples from around the world---Mayan warriors chewing coco leaves, shamanistic practitioners eating or smoking plants, etc.
 
But as a fan of the classic backstab stealth rogue archetype, I can empathize---PoE 1 really lacked a good Assassin class, and I missed it. So while the Assassin subclass isn't as unique or creative as the others I'm happy it will be in the game. Maybe they'll make one of the subclasses interesting/unusual and the other more like the stereotypical fantasy class, for classes where that's lacking, like a Chanter who's more like a Bard and a Monk who's more martial arts focused (... she prones her opponents by taking them down and breaking their arms... if they have arms).

Edited by SaruNi, 06 February 2017 - 08:42 PM.

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#44
jones092201

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Really hope this rogue subclass is a duelist type build-- off tank w +deflection and damage (or attack speed when engaged with one enemy) bump, negative modifiers when engaged with more than one
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#45
Doppelschwert

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I don't know why suddenly everyone is arguing how great/realistic drugs are in this thread - I do not want to ban drugs from the game, I want you to be able to invest into drugs independently from a subclass.

 

There are a lot of great characters in fiction (the lists already posted, also Sherlock Holmes comes to mind) that are drug addicts or users, and there are also some very cool concepts to use them, as a barbarian whose rage is drug-induced. I don't want to play these characters, but that doesn't mean I want you to not be able to do that.

However, and that is the point everyone seems to miss - most of those characters are not monks. Which means it would make sense to make such a specialization an optional talent, instead of basically telling you - if you want to be really good with using drugs, take one level in the Nalpaczla Monk Subclass and forfeit any ideas of a different second class.

 

Apart from that, there is an important distinction between the words used to describe these terms. In my language, and that may be the issue here, drugs are almost exclusively used to refer to mind-altering substances, and that is also how they are depicted in PoE in context with Zahua. I wouldn't mind a herbalist using herbs for increased effect or an alchemist using some potions, but then again, why would you lock these things that interact with a general gameplay system (consumables) onto a single class, when you could have it available to everyone?

 

You lose options for character building in general and also access to a second monk subclass that interacts more with the actual monk abilities. The way josh described it, it just feels tacked on.

 

And again, how would it work with multiclassing? You take one single level in the nalpacza and drugs get much stronger, at the cost of generating wounds. Then you just don't use any wounds and enjoy your improved buffs for the rest of the game with literally no downside.

This should be a talent with a general trade-off and not class based.



#46
blotter

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You take one single level in the nalpacza and drugs get much stronger, at the cost of generating wounds. Then you just don't use any wounds and enjoy your improved buffs for the rest of the game with literally no downside.

 

Given that abilities such as Sneak Attack and Carnage are going to scale in power with class level, I wouldn't expect a single level of Nalpacza monk to dramatically boost the power of any drugs/consumables you use.

 

That being said, I'm less than thrilled with the Nalpacza taking up one of only two subclass slots available for monks as well. It's not because it's controversial or even that I'd never consider using it, but rather that there's nothing particularly exciting about it and, like you said, it's the kind of ability that thematically works for a broad enough range of other characters (druids, priests, and ciphers seem to me like strong fits for this as well) that it should probably just be a talent.

 

On top of that, it stands out as the most specific and narrow of any of the subclasses I've seen thus far. Training in the ways of an Assassin or a Black Jacket, for example, seems like the sort of thing that could potentially be done anywhere, but the Nalpacza not only suggests association with a particular area in the world that may be far removed from where the Watcher and/or any NPCs hail from but also suggests ties to a culture that has been massacred and subjugated more or less to extinction. I'd argue that the fact that a Watcher from anywhere in the world can pick up the Nalpacza's tricks at all after, at most, sharing a bit of Zahua's stash during one comparatively brief quest seems to trivialize their culture and legacy immensely.


Edited by blotter, 07 February 2017 - 02:17 AM.

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#47
Boeroer

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On top of that, it stands out as the most specific and narrow of any of the subclasses I've seen thus far. Training in the ways of an Assassin or a Black Jacket, for example, seems like the sort of thing that could potentially be done anywhere, but the Nalpacza not only suggests association with a particular area in the world that may be far removed from where the Watcher and/or any NPCs hail from but also suggests ties to a culture that has been massacred and subjugated more or less to extinction. I'd argue that the fact that a Watcher from anywhere in the world can pick up the Nalpacza's tricks at all after, at most, sharing a bit of Zahua's stash during one comparatively brief quest seems to trivialize their culture and legacy immensely.

I still like the idea of the Nalpacza monk, but you have a point there.



#48
Eurhetemec

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Paladin - (they will be the choice of an Order, but we don't have details)
1)
2)

Priest - (they will be the choice of a deity, but we don't have details)
1)
2)

 

Is this explicitly confirmed? It seems like if only two Paladin orders, and only two gods, both out of several available, got subclasses, that'd be a little messed-up.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense for the subclasses to be role-based, rather than order/diety-specific? I mean, that's how AD&D did it with kits.


Edited by Eurhetemec, 07 February 2017 - 01:20 PM.


#49
Ganrich

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Paladin - (they will be the choice of an Order, but we don't have details)
1)
2)

Priest - (they will be the choice of a deity, but we don't have details)
1)
2)

 

Is this explicitly confirmed? It seems like if only two Paladin orders, and only two gods, both out of several available, got subclasses, that'd be a little messed-up.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense for the subclasses to be role-based, rather than order/diety-specific? I mean, that's how AD&D did it with kits.

 

Josh has said on SomethingAwful, I believe,(Ropekid is his handle) that the Orders and Deity's will be Subclasses.  Whether they are consolidating a few Gods under 1 subclass and the rest into the other, or like PoE1 they are retaining a handful of choices... I am unsure.  That is why I haven't put more than I have.  

 

Since the Subclass goal said 2 subclasses per Core Class I tend to lean that the Deity/Order system will change.  YMMV, on that assumption.


Edited by Ganrich, 07 February 2017 - 01:23 PM.

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#50
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Paladin - (they will be the choice of an Order, but we don't have details)
1)
2)

Priest - (they will be the choice of a deity, but we don't have details)
1)
2)

 

Is this explicitly confirmed? It seems like if only two Paladin orders, and only two gods, both out of several available, got subclasses, that'd be a little messed-up.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense for the subclasses to be role-based, rather than order/diety-specific? I mean, that's how AD&D did it with kits.

 

Josh has said on SomethingAwful, I believe,(Ropekid is his handle) that the Orders and Deity's will be Subclasses.  Whether they are consolidating a few Gods under 1 subclass and the rest into the other, or like PoE1 they are retaining a handful of choices... I am unsure.  That is why I haven't put more than I have.  

 

Since the Subclass goal said 2 subclasses per Core Class I tend to lean that the Deity/Order system will change.  YMMV, on that assumption.

 

 

Yeah I've since found the quote. As he said the diety/order will "effectively" be the subclass I tend to think it's more likely that they'll simply have more subclasses, just each one probably a bit less in-depth. I don't really see a reasonable way to put either the gods or the orders into two groups.



#51
Ganrich

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I felt the same.  I am still waiting for a bit before making any snap judgements.  I wish we knew more.  I am ready to hear about the subclasses.


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#52
SaruNi

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Why make the drug-using character a Monk?

 

1. Why let the Ghost Heart Ranger be the one with undead animal pet (rather than the more stereotypical wizard/necromancer familiar)? Sure, these are unconventional---that's what makes them fresh and interesting. And they have lore / substantive narrative to go along with them. (Incidentally,  blotter, props for that user pic of lingchi---the guy dying from the death of a thousand cuts is actually an excellent example of ecstasy through flagellation/wounding in East Asian cultures. He was also given opium.) 

 

(Same holds, to a lesser extent, for the Black Jacket---it's unconventional, the matching weapons to target / switching weapons in the middle of combat could just as easily be a Rogue (or Assassin) ability, and the name implies there may be special PoE-specific lore to go along with it.)

 

2. The PoE Monk purposefully takes injuries (and injures himself) in order to gain power. So those who are opposed to drugs because they can be harmful (a form of self-wounding) should agree that Monk is actually the most appropriate class---even moreso than Rogue or Barbarian. (Though multiclassing Monk - evasion Rogue or Monk - leaping Barbarian will probably be great options for more of a "conventional" unarmed martial arts master type.)

 

3. I agree that it could be boring if the drugs, their side effects, and their combinations aren't especially interesting. Some of the drugs from PoE 1 had negative side effects (boosting one stat will diminishing another, or negative effects kicking in after the drug wears off) or potentially interesting effects on gameplay (+speed, immunity to affliction, etc.). But as Boeroer pointed out it depends on what the drugs end up being (and how much of an effect they have on this Monk).


Edited by SaruNi, 07 February 2017 - 03:58 PM.


#53
blotter

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Sure, these are unconventional---that's what makes them fresh and interesting. And they have lore / substantive narrative to go along with them.

 

The Ghost Heart Ranger's setup isn't all that unconventional. It's actually pretty evocative of rather well-established themes like spirit guides and totems, to say nothing of the fact that spirit animal companions specifically are well-tread ground by Obsidian itself via Mask of the Betrayer.

 

I'll grant that it's not as bog-standard as the sort of hyper-focused archer they could have introduced in its place, but let's be realistic here: we're probably not going to get much in the way of unique dialogue options and NPC reactions based on subclasses. Hell, if Pillars 1 is any indication, we probably shouldn't even expect too many unique options based on broader class categories either (how many times were monk-specific dialogues available, for example? I can think of maybe two or three.) With that in mind, I wouldn't expect much on the lore front beyond the name itself and the descriptions we read during character generation, and if I'm right, it seems more appropriate to judge how interesting a subclass ends up being based on how it actually plays.

 

(Incidentally,  blotter, props for that user pic of lingchi---the guy dying from the death of a thousand cuts is actually an excellent example of ecstasy through flagellation/wounding in East Asian cultures. He was also given opium.)

 

Thanks. I definitely agree that it's a pretty striking representation of ritualized suffering and the altered states of mind that can be produced alongside it; I'm a fan of the direction that Pillars took with monks and personally find it to be far more interesting than its counterparts in games/franchises like D&D. Like I said earlier, I don't find the Nalpazca subclass to be morally objectionable and insofar as I'm concerned with it being too niche to merit occupying one of the very few subclass spots available, I base that position more on excessively narrow cultural associations that come with it - ideally, I'd like subclass options to be unique in applications and broader in terms of the areas and backgrounds that they can encompass. If they renamed the subclass the Lotus-Eater, Ecstatic, or what have you, and then mentioned the Nalpazca in the description as a regional example of a broader set of practices that the subclass represents my issues with it in this regard would mostly disappear.

 

Beyond that, though, this sort of subclass seems like the sort that would negatively stand out more than others if it suffered from a dearth of unique dialogue options and NPC interactions. Assassins, for example, have a comparatively broad range of motivations and presentations in media where they're present and the stereotypes surrounding them are pretty easily represented by Dispositions that are already in the game (e.g., cold and pragmatic as Rational and Stoic, treacherous and vile as Cruel and Deceptive/Shady, etc.) By contrast, nothing from the first game or from what I know of the second leads me to believe that there will be much opportunity to characterize the Watcher in terms of the subclass' philosophy or associated tropes/stereotypes (for better or worse). From what little we know of the other subclasses, their themes and skill sets either don't seem to map as closely to expectations in terms of character beliefs or behavior, or the expectations that come with them are more easily accommodated within the scope of conventional options. In either case, no other subclass that's been introduced thus far seems to be quite as keenly at risk of falling flat due to the gap between gameplay options and options available through interactions with NPCs.


Edited by blotter, 07 February 2017 - 07:08 PM.

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#54
limaxophobiacq

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Paladin - (they will be the choice of an Order, but we don't have details)
1)
2)

Priest - (they will be the choice of a deity, but we don't have details)
1)
2)

 

Is this explicitly confirmed? It seems like if only two Paladin orders, and only two gods, both out of several available, got subclasses, that'd be a little messed-up.

 

Wouldn't it make more sense for the subclasses to be role-based, rather than order/diety-specific? I mean, that's how AD&D did it with kits.

 

Josh has said on SomethingAwful, I believe,(Ropekid is his handle) that the Orders and Deity's will be Subclasses.  Whether they are consolidating a few Gods under 1 subclass and the rest into the other, or like PoE1 they are retaining a handful of choices... I am unsure.  That is why I haven't put more than I have.  

 

Since the Subclass goal said 2 subclasses per Core Class I tend to lean that the Deity/Order system will change.  YMMV, on that assumption.

 

 

I hope we at least get some more spells that act differently for priests for different deities. A weapon-summoning (like Parasitic Staff or Spirit Lance) for Priests that summons a weapon based on your choice of deity (so a Greatsword for Berath, a Stiletto for Skaen, a flail for Eothas) would be really neat, as would Minor Avatar giving you different bonuses depending on which deity you become an avatar for (f.ex. more weapon damage and might bonus for Magran, sneak attack damage and a higher dex bonus for Skaen, higher Int bonus for Wael).

 

Edit: Just as long as they don't balance it as horribly as the symbol of (GOD) spells; +30 against charm/confusion/domination vs. +20 to all defenses, seriously?


Edited by limaxophobiacq, 08 February 2017 - 03:34 AM.


#55
Ganrich

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Yeah, spell differences via deity would be cool.

You know they could have two subclasses of Paladin. One being defensive and another offensive as an example. You select the subclass and it gives you a smaller subset of the Orders to select from. Then they could further flavor your Order via talents like in PoE. So, the subclass dictates certain things, and the deity gives talents to further flavor it.

EG. Select the defensive Subclass and you can select from Shieldbearer, Wayfarer, and Darcozzi. Select offensive and you can select from Bleak Walkers, Goldpact, and they could give us access to Pallegina's order or create another.

The same could be done with Priests and their deity. Although, you probably wouldn't split their two subclasses by defense and offense.

It doesn't sound like they are doing this, but a guy can dream.

#56
JerekKruger

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That's the system I'd prefer to see Gangich, but as you say it's unlikely to be the system Obsidian are going with.


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#57
injurai

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Drugs are bad mmkay



#58
Doppelschwert

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Why make the drug-using character a Monk?

 

1. Why let the Ghost Heart Ranger be the one with undead animal pet (rather than the more stereotypical wizard/necromancer familiar)? Sure, these are unconventional---that's what makes them fresh and interesting. And they have lore / substantive narrative to go along with them. (Incidentally,  blotter, props for that user pic of lingchi---the guy dying from the death of a thousand cuts is actually an excellent example of ecstasy through flagellation/wounding in East Asian cultures. He was also given opium.) 

 

(Same holds, to a lesser extent, for the Black Jacket---it's unconventional, the matching weapons to target / switching weapons in the middle of combat could just as easily be a Rogue (or Assassin) ability, and the name implies there may be special PoE-specific lore to go along with it.)

 

2. The PoE Monk purposefully takes injuries (and injures himself) in order to gain power. So those who are opposed to drugs because they can be harmful (a form of self-wounding) should agree that Monk is actually the most appropriate class---even moreso than Rogue or Barbarian. (Though multiclassing Monk - evasion Rogue or Monk - leaping Barbarian will probably be great options for more of a "conventional" unarmed martial arts master type.)

 

3. I agree that it could be boring if the drugs, their side effects, and their combinations aren't especially interesting. Some of the drugs from PoE 1 had negative side effects (boosting one stat will diminishing another, or negative effects kicking in after the drug wears off) or potentially interesting effects on gameplay (+speed, immunity to affliction, etc.). But as Boeroer pointed out it depends on what the drugs end up being (and how much of an effect they have on this Monk).

 

In my opinion, a subclass should work like the archetypes in pathfinder:

Some class features are changed, or some class features are improved at the cost of other class features. Mechanically, they work on the class specific things, and necessarily change how you play a class.

 

The Ghost Heart Ranger makes sense in this context, since you modify one of the main class features, the pet.

The Black Jacket Fighter makes sense in this context, since most class features rely on weapons, and that is what is modified.

Not much is known about the Assassin mechanically, but from the sound of it, the risk-reward is increased, which is also a concept of the rogue in PoE.

 

Lets look at the monk:

Drugs are not part of the class mechanics, everyone can use them. You get a bonus for using them at the cost of a class ability, e.g. gaining wounds. The rest does not seem effected.

 

This doesn't fit either criteria - no necessary change in gameplay, and no modification of anything you could do anyway.

If you can play a subclass just the same as the main class, whats the point?

 

This would be the same as introducing the Trapper Rogue, which gets a bonus to traps at the cost of reduced sneak attack while a trap is lying around. You trade unique stuff from your class for something generic that everyone can do, and you could ignore it completely. I think thats super lame.

 

I thought PoE was progressive by making all consumables and traps available to everyone, compared to DnD where there was class-skill gated proficiency with these things. In DnD2, mostly rogues were able to deal with traps or lay them, while in PoE, everyone could. With these specializations, they are making a 180 degree turn on this paradigm, by reintroducing classes that are strictly better at those things than others.

 

Lore and personal disposition towards drugs aside, I hope we can agree that this does not sound like a compelling specialization from a mechanical point of view?

 

In particular, compare these to the deities / orders of clerics / paladins. Each cleric gets a unique weapon specialization and a unique spell. Each paladin modifies either his Flame of Devotion or his Lay on Hands. That is what I would like to see for monks as well. Something that will differentiate them and I need to take into consideration when building the character.

 

Regardless, I'll wait for further information. I fear I won't like either monk subclass at this point, and if it turns out like that, I'll likely multiclass to somehow get a martial artist or just scrap the concept alltogether for this game and play a magical swordsman instead.


Edited by Doppelschwert, 08 February 2017 - 02:00 AM.


#59
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Lore and personal disposition towards drugs aside, I hope we can agree that this does not sound like a compelling specialization from a mechanical point of view?

 

 

I agree, I hope there will be more to it than the simple "drugs will last longer and/or give extra stats to this subclass".

 

Special powers, visions, hallucination attacks... any strange idea would be interesting to see and totally fitting the Nazpalca theme! I hope the devs won't waste this chance by doing something banal or purely stats-related.

 

By the way, if you want to play the traditional martial artist, remember that you are free to pick the generic class Monk, without any specialization. Of course it would be a pity, I agree.


Edited by SkySlam, 08 February 2017 - 03:30 AM.


#60
Leeuwenhart

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Arent traps skill related and drugs combat related?

I get where you coming from. But drugs are combat only. And since they will damage and boost you (probably) a fit for the monk. (Only other character who needs dmg is barbarian i think. And hes got frenzy as a mechanic.)
Weapons can also be used by anybody. And so can their foci. But the fighter still has the specialisations no? :)





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