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Split Health/Stamina


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#101
smjjames

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^ Missread. But no wonder: I said you can use only one Empower charge in one encounter; but have a few charges per-rest.  
 

Isn't there already 'empower' as incentive for resting in Deadfire?

Depends on how good it is.

Example: Minnoleta's Missiles will fire 4 projectiles instead of 3.
I doubt someone would rest in order to inflict extra 20-50 flat damage.

On the other hand if Empower would greatly increase accuracy of cc abilities, or would condense or substantially increase damage coefficient of DoT spells... now that would be an incentive to rest.

 

I checked the E3 vid and the empower gave Minoletta's Missiles 6 extra missiles for a total of 9, which is a threefold increase, which would definetly be a heck of an incentive to rest.

 

You know, that would be a good question to ask on the Q&A on the 12th, gonna go and do that.



#102
MaxQuest

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I checked the E3 vid and the empower gave Minoletta's Missiles 6 extra missiles for a total of 9, which is a threefold increase, which would definetly be a heck of an incentive to rest.

A x3 increase? Hell it is!)
 
Btw, have you noticed what level Aloth was? The reason I am asking, is:

The Power Level is going to range from 0 to 10. Abilities scale with Power Level (we don't know through if the scaling is proportional). And Empower adds a flat +3 bonus to the Power Level:
Spoiler


And if for example Aloth was of power level 1, using Empower would result in casting Missiles as of power level 4, and dealing x4 damage, ofc if and only if damage scales proportionally and not like [dmg = power_level * base_dmg + c]; (plus assuming there are no other damage modifiers)
 

You know, that would be a good question to ask on the Q&A on the 12th, gonna go and do that.

Go for it.
Also it's interesting to know how does Power Level stacks with Might bonus.

Edited by MaxQuest, 04 July 2017 - 09:11 AM.


#103
smjjames

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I checked the E3 vid and the empower gave Minoletta's Missiles 6 extra missiles for a total of 9, which is a threefold increase, which would definetly be a heck of an incentive to rest.

A x3 increase? Hell it is!)
 
Btw, have you noticed what level Aloth was? The reason I am asking, is:

The Power Level is going to range from 0 to 10. Abilities scale with Power Level (we don't know through if the scaling is proportional). And Empower adds a flat +3 bonus to the Power Level:
Spoiler


And if for example Aloth was of power level 1, using Empower would result in casting Missiles as of power level 4, and dealing x4 damage, ofc if and only if damage scales proportionally and not like [dmg = power_level * base_dmg + c]; (plus assuming there are no other damage modifiers)

 

Good point on what level Aloth was in the vid. I went back and looked at the vid and assuming he didn't multiclass and they're using the same progression in PoE1, he seems to be level 7. The number of spells per-encounter seems different from the progression used in PoE1, but those are likely not the final numbers. No idea how it would translate into visuals like if the visuals/number of projectiles scales with the power level of the Empower ability.

 

edit: I think you meant empower level, not class level, *goes back and checks* edit2: It shows as 2, but that's just the amount available at that moment, we don't know if some were used up at an earlier point.


Edited by smjjames, 04 July 2017 - 09:35 AM.


#104
MaxQuest

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The number of spells per-encounter seems different from the progression used in PoE1, but those are likely not the final numbers.

This is true. If ex-vancian classes would have kept the same amount of spell usages per rank, they would be way too powerful.
 

edit: I think you meant empower level, not class level, *goes back and checks* edit2: It shows as 2, but that's just the amount available at that moment, we don't know if some were used up at an earlier point.

No, I was asking specifically for Aloth's class level. Afaik he indeed didn't multiclass, and knowing that he is a 7/0 wizard we can deduce that his [power level] is 4 (which is also the rank of spells he has access to)

So:
When he casts a non-empowered spell, his power_level is 4.
When he casts an empowered spell, his power_level is 7. (i.e. +3 as was told in one of Q&As)


I have re-watched the video and:
4:17 - 4:25 - [Minoletta's Bounding Missiles]: visually 3 missiles fired (2 arrived to target and one disappeared mid-air, probably missed?) (tooltip says 3 missiles)
5:12 - 5:20 - Empowered [Minoletta's Bounding Missiles]: visually 8 missiles fired (7 immediately; then one more on the left) (tooltip says 3 missiles)

Perhaps the power_level bonus provided by Empower was indeed increased since that Q&A.

Edited by MaxQuest, 05 July 2017 - 03:03 AM.


#105
JFutral

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@demeisein,
In all seriousness, a health bar going down and not coming back up unless you heal is the same thing as having it refilled after combat automatically, in terms of make-sense. Like, you get beat up, your health is at the middle and you still fight like nothing ever happened and when it's out you automatically fall? Is on/off "serious" rpg mechanic? I don't think so. Also I don't see anything Diablo-esque about health bars refilling after combat, considering in Diablo you need to heal via magic or potions.

The only thing that matters is: does this new system works well with resting mechanics? Does it give players a challenge? Everything else is monolithic traditional rpg rationale, imho. I'm a fan of split health/stamina, but, as I mentioned numerous times (even in Pillars 1 discussions), the best other mechanic I've seen in pcrpgs is the DA:O system "survive the encounter or game over and if you fell, you get injured. Get many injuries, can't progress ('cause you're gonna fall easy!) - go heal yourself" that Deadfire is heading to, as it seems.

The only thing that annoyed me, once I figured out the difference between health and endurance was not being able to heal health with who I would figure should able to, the priest. Instead, there is a potion that helps (but I can only use it in combat???), a wizard spell for the wizard, and a skill or talent or whatever it is called, that anyone can get. A wizard spell! I mean, what???

 

Realism, schmealism. This is fantasy. I already accept that an enemy is not going to finish me off when I am knocked out. Now that's civility!

 

Joe



#106
Boeroer

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No, it's smart.
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#107
dam

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"By engaging in the discussion you're bound by the forum rules to respect other users, including their opinion even if you don't like it.

Calling it (and thus my argument) bullshat is anything but respectful, so would you please edit that and, I don't know, see if you can use a slightly more empathic word?"

That sounds like some bull**** to me. It sounds like your pissy that he thinks your metric is crap, and want to use the forum rules to make him shut up. It sounds like you just can't deal with somebody strongly disagreeing with your "evidence".

 

 

Excuse me ?

I never asked him to back down or change his opinion, I asked that he use a more respectful word.



#108
dam

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[quote name="anameforobsidian" post="1919911" timestamp="1498177385"]
[quote name="dam" post="1919808" timestamp="1498152213"]
 
Yeah no I'm gonna have to dislike the "bullshat metric" bit o_O
By engaging in the discussion you're bound by the forum rules to respect other users, including their opinion even if you don't like it.
Calling it (and thus my argument) bullshat is anything but respectful, so would you please edit that and, I don't know, see if you can use a slightly more empathic word ?
 


His words might not have been elegant but he is not offending anyone. And he has a point. I don't believe that the game should balanced around/designed around weird ways of playing it. POE is a team RPG and different classes are designed to work within that framework. You CAN run with a party of the same class, you CAN do solo run but how individual class behaves in each scenario is not really a good argument in a discussion of a game mechanics. It's a bit like complaining on XCOM balance when you do 4 soldier run or oh bad all Mercy comp is in overwatch.

 

Which is exactly why I said he made cogent arguments; which they were in my opinion.

 

I'm not trying to say the game should be tailored to what I personally like.

I'm merely stating what I dislike about the split health/endurance pools, and why I for one, support the move.



#109
dam

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You can build spells to do damn near anything in Tyranny. There are some specific effects in PoE that you don't get in Tyranny, but also vice versa--and you don't get near the versatility or flexibility in PoE that you get with the spell-crafting system in Tyranny.

I can't control the exact amount of recovery time of each and every spell in PoE. I can't reshape spells in PoE to specific AoE shapes. I can't change the damage types of my fire and ice spells. I can't control the duration, I can't give spells extra accuracy as needed, etc. Tyranny has a *really* great spell system.

 

 

As a matter of fact and while Tyranny's spell system is really enjoyable, it's nowhere near perfect.

 

 

Ryzom introduced (much more) customizable spells.

Dragon Age Origins introduce spell interactions to create different or more potent effects.

 

If there's ever a Tyranny sequel, I for one certainly hope they expand the spell creation options.


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#110
Boeroer

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I think the resulting spells which you generate in Tyranny felt really... generic. ;)

"Bland" would be another word to describe it. Of course more adaptable and flexible, too.

 

A bit like when you compare hand-crafted maps (PoE) with dynamically generated ones (Diablo or Torchlight or whatever). Pros and cons.

 

I would be cool if you could not only create or craft spells and abilites from certain resources, but also develop them over time - like you develop your character. Would give even spells that feel bland a bit more flavor and a certain feel of "history" after some time.


Edited by Boeroer, 08 July 2017 - 03:33 AM.

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#111
Amentep

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Consider this a gentle reminder -

Discuss ideas not people - this includes attempts to applying psychoanalysis to other's posts to try to ascribe motives to them.

If you have an issue with someone's post, please report it so that a moderator may address the issue.

Do not circumvent the word filter.


#112
MortyTheGobbo

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As I got back to Pillars, I'm coming around to removing the split. Health is just a bit too punishing. There's potential for a lot of damage in this game, so it's possible to lose most of your health through misfortune or a lapse in concentration. It's especially problematic for lightly-armoured characters, and I think it contributes to the problem of their getting too much of a beating if they get close to the front line. So it's either that, or make health easier to regain. Which kind of muddies the division. So I can see why they just removed it and focused on endurance.



#113
eisenschwein

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I wouldn't call it 'punishing' - especially on Normal, even Hard difficulty - at all, in my experience with PoE the split system rather presents a novel and welcome strategic challenge having to balance and keep up both the health and endurance levels of the characters, no matter if they're 'squishier' than others or not. Didn't notice much of a problem there, to be honest.

On PotD it's a bit of a different affair obviously but, as Obsidian has said numerous times before, they don't design around and for the game being played on PotD as the standard difficulty. You know what you're getting into and that it's going to be much more of a challenge to manage health & endurance on PotD difficulty. It's one of the reasons why it's called 'Path of the Damned'.

Good to hear/read that Sawyer and Null are keeping the door open for the split system to possibly return and replace the current iteration, if given enough Beta tester feedback.

I'd hate to see the split system being discarded just like that.


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#114
wolfstriked

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IMO no reason for health when injuries can be deciding factor on when to go to an inn.I feel they also should not force you to use camping supply to reset spells and abilities.kinda breaks immersion when you sleep in dungeons every five levels.

Also if you are very on top of preventing your characters from dropping you can go thru a whole dungeon and never need to backtrack or rest.

Edited by wolfstriked, 19 July 2017 - 06:35 PM.


#115
desel

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Just a friendly reminder that the upcoming beta is likely the last chance to speak up and have the current "just health" implementation removed and the split health/stamina system reinstated again.

Considering that "just health" is quite the step back (a.k.a. decline) from the additional layer of tactical depth health/stamina is able to provide this really should be a no-brainer.
Removing a perfectly working system just because "some people" didn't get it right away (despite the tutorial, loading screen hints and obvious green bars and red portrait fills) was, is and always will be bullsh!t in any case and should never be tolerated.


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#116
Wormerine

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I am kinda backpedaling from that. Current system might work just fine. We will see how people will react to the beta. Sadly, I won’t be testing it myself.

#117
Sedrefilos

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I don't assume anything. I liked the split system a lot but if the new one works fine, I'm ok.



#118
draego

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Check out  Ellohime's twitch stream from last night. you can go to him fighting and falling a lot in battle to see how it works. I too was skeptical about this change but doesnt seem to bad. I mean its more punishing to keep going with injuries but it may be fine.



#119
Sedrefilos

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I couldn't have been bad because it is the standard system of every game except Pillars :p
It just won't be so unique anymore. And, yea, I tend to agree that injuries are more punishing, although it has been done by others too.



#120
Alhoon

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I'm in favor of the old system as well, mainly because the new system makes healing way more powerful than health increases via Constitution or items.

 

Actually Constitution is the biggest problem here. It's useless now. In Pillars 1 you wanted to have some of it so your tank won't run out of Health during a major fight in PotD difficulty, but that won't be a problem in the current system. Imagine I'm a Crusader (Fighter/Paladin). I have immense self healing, and Might increases Damage, Healing AND Fortitude saves. Meanwhile, Constitution only increases Health and Fortitude saves. I think that's a problem.


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