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Split Health/Stamina


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#81
injurai

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wjfC3MY.png

 

Injuries also reducing max health alleviates one of my concerns; though I'd still prefer the old system.

 

I thought they got rid of health. But maybe that was an earlier incarnation of this system? We don't see health in the E3 video, so which is it...?



#82
anameforobsidian

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I think they refer to it as just health now, not endurance.



#83
injurai

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I think they refer to it as just health now, not endurance.

 

That was my thought too.



#84
demeisen

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I haven't been following this topic (or even poe2) too closely.  I did notice in the last gameplay video there was no split health/stamina :verymad:, though I hope Obsidian might still come 'round.  I'm not arguing it was perfect, or wouldn't benefit from changes, just that it a lot of ways it worked.

​However that decision goes, whether 1 or 2 stats, more than anything I hope there is some form of non-auto-regenerating health system.  A whole lot of us don't want a Diablo style game with a HP bar that goes "whooop!" back up after every combat.  "Serious" RPGs even back to pen and paper games don't do that, for reasons well described by others in this and similar threads, and I don't see wounds as being a suitable substitute.  Maybe an augmenting mechanic, at best.

I consider POE1 to be the top dog among RPGs of the last decade or more.  The world building and general "feel" Obsidian created is second to nothing in recent times.  I'd be really sad if we start seeing aspects simplified down towards action style mechanics.  Already I lost interest in Tyranny because of its push towards excessive simplification.  Hoping I won't for the POE series...


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#85
Katarack21

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"By engaging in the discussion you're bound by the forum rules to respect other users, including their opinion even if you don't like it.

Calling it (and thus my argument) bullshat is anything but respectful, so would you please edit that and, I don't know, see if you can use a slightly more empathic word?"

That sounds like some bull**** to me. It sounds like your pissy that he thinks your metric is crap, and want to use the forum rules to make him shut up. It sounds like you just can't deal with somebody strongly disagreeing with your "evidence".


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#86
Sedrefilos

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@demeisein,
In all seriousness, a health bar going down and not coming back up unless you heal is the same thing as having it refilled after combat automatically, in terms of make-sense. Like, you get beat up, your health is at the middle and you still fight like nothing ever happened and when it's out you automatically fall? Is on/off "serious" rpg mechanic? I don't think so. Also I don't see anything Diablo-esque about health bars refilling after combat, considering in Diablo you need to heal via magic or potions.

The only thing that matters is: does this new system works well with resting mechanics? Does it give players a challenge? Everything else is monolithic traditional rpg rationale, imho. I'm a fan of split health/stamina, but, as I mentioned numerous times (even in Pillars 1 discussions), the best other mechanic I've seen in pcrpgs is the DA:O system "survive the encounter or game over and if you fell, you get injured. Get many injuries, can't progress ('cause you're gonna fall easy!) - go heal yourself" that Deadfire is heading to, as it seems.



#87
FlintlockJazz

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@demeisein,
In all seriousness, a health bar going down and not coming back up unless you heal is the same thing as having it refilled after combat automatically, in terms of make-sense. Like, you get beat up, your health is at the middle and you still fight like nothing ever happened and when it's out you automatically fall? Is on/off "serious" rpg mechanic? I don't think so. Also I don't see anything Diablo-esque about health bars refilling after combat, considering in Diablo you need to heal via magic or potions.

The only thing that matters is: does this new system works well with resting mechanics? Does it give players a challenge? Everything else is monolithic traditional rpg rationale, imho. I'm a fan of split health/stamina, but, as I mentioned numerous times (even in Pillars 1 discussions), the best other mechanic I've seen in pcrpgs is the DA:O system "survive the encounter or game over and if you fell, you get injured. Get many injuries, can't progress ('cause you're gonna fall easy!) - go heal yourself" that Deadfire is heading to, as it seems.

Maybe they could use the Savage Worlds health system?  Or the GURPS health system whereby as long you keep succeeding your Health roll you can keep on fighting on negative hit points!



#88
desel

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In all seriousness, a health bar going down and not coming back up unless you heal is the same thing as having it refilled after combat automatically, in terms of make-sense. Like, you get beat up, your health is at the middle and you still fight like nothing ever happened and when it's out you automatically fall? Is on/off "serious" rpg mechanic? I don't think so. Also I don't see anything Diablo-esque about health bars refilling after combat, considering in Diablo you need to heal via magic or potions.

 

One of the problems that's elegantly solved by splitting a character's vitality into stamina and health. Nobody's questioning stamina automatically refilling after combat.
That's also why splitting vitality into stamina and health makes for the arguably best abstraction of how it works in real life.

I too feel that in terms of mechanics it's something that makes POE stand out from the rest and therefore should be embraced instead of simplified. Dumbing things down never goes down well (see Tyranny or Dragon Age 2).

 

 

Last paragraph seems to suggest that nothing's set in stone just yet though.

 

yNyIN1R.png

 

If there's enough beta tester feedback in favor of the old Health/Stamina system that is...

 

Fingers crossed then.


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#89
Katarack21

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Dumbing things down never goes down well (see Tyranny or Dragon Age 2).

Tyranny was and is an amazing isometric RPG with a great deal of depth and complexity; the spell system alone makes PoE look simplified and dumbed down in comparison. People like to bitch about Tyranny being dumbed-down or simplified, but what this always seems to come to is "A lot of things have cooldown timers".



#90
Quillon

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the spell system alone makes PoE look simplified and dumbed down in comparison.


...
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#91
injurai

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Yeah, I don't get that either.



#92
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You can build spells to do damn near anything in Tyranny. There are some specific effects in PoE that you don't get in Tyranny, but also vice versa--and you don't get near the versatility or flexibility in PoE that you get with the spell-crafting system in Tyranny.

I can't control the exact amount of recovery time of each and every spell in PoE. I can't reshape spells in PoE to specific AoE shapes. I can't change the damage types of my fire and ice spells. I can't control the duration, I can't give spells extra accuracy as needed, etc. Tyranny has a *really* great spell system.



#93
MortyTheGobbo

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I've long ceased to treat "dumbed down" as a serious argument. It doesn't apply to Tyranny, it doesn't apply to Dragon Age 2 (whose combat is strictly superior to that of Origins), and it doesn't apply to Deadfire's health mechanic. I would also rather they'd stuck with health and endurance. But doing otherwise isn't "dumbing down". It's picking different priorities.



#94
Wormerine

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[quote name="dam" post="1919990" timestamp="1498211063"][quote name="anameforobsidian" post="1919911" timestamp="1498177385"]
[quote name="dam" post="1919808" timestamp="1498152213"]
 
Yeah no I'm gonna have to dislike the "bullshat metric" bit o_O
By engaging in the discussion you're bound by the forum rules to respect other users, including their opinion even if you don't like it.
Calling it (and thus my argument) bullshat is anything but respectful, so would you please edit that and, I don't know, see if you can use a slightly more empathic word ?
 [/quote]

His words might not have been elegant but he is not offending anyone. And he has a point. I don't believe that the game should balanced around/designed around weird ways of playing it. POE is a team RPG and different classes are designed to work within that framework. You CAN run with a party of the same class, you CAN do solo run but how individual class behaves in each scenario is not really a good argument in a discussion of a game mechanics. It's a bit like complaining on XCOM balance when you do 4 soldier run or oh bad all Mercy comp is in overwatch.




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