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Split Health/Stamina


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#61
demeisen

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Here's hoping they keep it, maybe with some tweaks or changes.  The essence of it is a decent idea, and it even makes some rough sense if you imagine it as "adrenaline fueled burst energy" vs "longer term stamina".


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#62
lettiv

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Hopefully the old system is still up for consideration, and just wasn't present in the pre-alpha build shown of at E3 because mechanics such as this usually are implemented in their final iteration towards the end of development(?).



#63
Katarack21

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I really enjoyed the health/endurance mechanic.


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#64
MortyTheGobbo

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I also like it. I feel like it's a compromise between the old-school, unforgiving system where wounds are forever until you spend resources, and the more modern style, where you're back to full strength after every fight. That said, it took me a while to get just how damage is applied to both pools.

 

Last I've heard, they're going for something more similar to Tyranny in Deadfire?



#65
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I thought health/stamina system was an elegant solution (especially once knockout injuries were added). I didn't think that Tyranny system worked all that well. Per-rest abilities were few, and for the most part levelling up was quick enoug that resting felt unnecessary until late game to me.

To me health/stamina system was clear, while T injury system - was not confusing but more messy.
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#66
Wormerine

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I hated the health mechanic, when playing on Hard difficulty. One battle going poorly (most often due to poor positioning at the start of it) meant that I'd have to rest with most of my spells and other per-day resources left, and nothing felt worse, other than perhaps the stronghold hirelings payment reminding me that I didn't get enough done that week.
 
As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Age "solved" the health mechanic problem eight years ago: One pool of fairly generous HP resource, which when it drains the character falls unconscious and receives a wound which can be eliminated by either "resting" (returning to camp in DAO or your manor/shack in DA2) or using an injury kit. The challenge became at least keeping one person standing at the end of combat, and ideally keeping everyone up so you're not wasting time or money.
 
Health/Endurance just meant that the monk was inevitably going to drag everyone else down, every single day.


That is true, sometimes scripted positioning would mess up your day.

Personally DA approach didn't work for me. Tyranny did similar thing and I found it unengagin as well. Both games felt way to MMOish (watching healthpools slowely depleting, using abilities if they are off cool down and drinking healing potions). I am certainly against increasing health pools - it just makes everything last longer without adding to gameplay.

#67
Sedrefilos

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What I saw from the demo gameplay video, the new health system is going to be more Dragon Age Origins style, which is fine by me. Although I liked the split system both mechanically and thematically, this is the best other system I've seen in pc rpgs. Survive the encounter or game over. If anyone fell during it, they get an injury; stuck too many injuries and you can't progress further (because your characters keep falling in combat/encounters) so you better have supplies to rest and treat them. You don't? Guess you need to abandon the area for the moment.


Edited by Sedrefilos, 16 June 2017 - 02:57 AM.


#68
FlintlockJazz

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I hated the Dragon Age Origins system.  Deadfire going a similar way makes Jazz a SadJazz.


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#69
Katarack21

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I wish like hell they'd do away with scripted positioning *entirely*. They don't bloody know what role my main char is in when they script it; half the time my caster is right up front getting ganked immediately and I'm screwed. It does *nothing* but piss me off and I see no legitimate reason for it to be done.

It just sucks, all the time, period.


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#70
anameforobsidian

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I thought the endurance / health mechanic was brilliant.  Resting supplies pushed you to go further, while health was a hard limitation.  It had me dramatically changing party role as the health of certain characters dropped lower, and pushed me away from trying to tank and spank every fight.  For instance, Eder would take a beating so he would pickup a gun while Kana got the slack.  Or Aloth would be so wounded I would do a couple fights without him.  Without it there's less of a link between long term goals and tactics.  I think we'll see a lot of people barely surviving fights and then wondering why they can't beat bosses that other people faceroll.


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#71
oholio

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I'd rather see Obs sticking with the already established and working split system too, for all the reasons already mentioned, but in particular:

a) for the unique, fresh approach to the same old tired "one health pool" paradigm and
b) for the additional layer of tactical depth (in and out of combat) and having to consider short term endurance vs. long term health.



#72
dam

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I hated the health mechanic, when playing on Hard difficulty. One battle going poorly (most often due to poor positioning at the start of it) meant that I'd have to rest with most of my spells and other per-day resources left, and nothing felt worse, other than perhaps the stronghold hirelings payment reminding me that I didn't get enough done that week.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Age "solved" the health mechanic problem eight years ago: One pool of fairly generous HP resource, which when it drains the character falls unconscious and receives a wound which can be eliminated by either "resting" (returning to camp in DAO or your manor/shack in DA2) or using an injury kit. The challenge became at least keeping one person standing at the end of combat, and ideally keeping everyone up so you're not wasting time or money.

 

Health/Endurance just meant that the monk was inevitably going to drag everyone else down, every single day.

 

This, most definitely.

Single reason I stopped playing a Monk.

 

No matter how good you are, how well you gear, how min-maxed you built, your Monk is going to need Rest for no other reason than him existing.

 

This is needlessly punishing towards a class that's meant to be played that way.

 

 

 

One has to ask themselves, what's the actual value of endurance/hp split pools, what core mechanic does it provide ?

It prevents people from cheesing fights with constant tanking and healing ? So what if they wanted to play that way ? This is a single player game.

It forces people to Rest from time to time for realism ? So what if they don't care about it ?

It punishes them for playing a 10 CON monk ? Well maybe they are confident in their ability to keep him alive even with 10 CON.

 

If the main incentive is to give the CON stat some measure of value, then the problem lies with the CON stat itself and not the need for split endurance/hp pools.

As per my suggestion on the POE1 forums, CON should give +DR so people are discouraged from dumping it.

 

Aside from that, I see no practical use to the split hp/endurance pool mechanic, and I for one would like for it to go away.

It ruins Monks.



#73
Insidous

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I hated the health mechanic, when playing on Hard difficulty. One battle going poorly (most often due to poor positioning at the start of it) meant that I'd have to rest with most of my spells and other per-day resources left, and nothing felt worse, other than perhaps the stronghold hirelings payment reminding me that I didn't get enough done that week.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Age "solved" the health mechanic problem eight years ago: One pool of fairly generous HP resource, which when it drains the character falls unconscious and receives a wound which can be eliminated by either "resting" (returning to camp in DAO or your manor/shack in DA2) or using an injury kit. The challenge became at least keeping one person standing at the end of combat, and ideally keeping everyone up so you're not wasting time or money.

 

Health/Endurance just meant that the monk was inevitably going to drag everyone else down, every single day.

 

This, most definitely.

Single reason I stopped playing a Monk.

 

No matter how good you are, how well you gear, how min-maxed you built, your Monk is going to need Rest for no other reason than him existing.

 

This is needlessly punishing towards a class that's meant to be played that way.

 

 

 

One has to ask themselves, what's the actual value of endurance/hp split pools, what core mechanic does it provide ?

It prevents people from cheesing fights with constant tanking and healing ? So what if they wanted to play that way ? This is a single player game.

It forces people to Rest from time to time for realism ? So what if they don't care about it ?

It punishes them for playing a 10 CON monk ? Well maybe they are confident in their ability to keep him alive even with 10 CON.

 

If the main incentive is to give the CON stat some measure of value, then the problem lies with the CON stat itself and not the need for split endurance/hp pools.

As per my suggestion on the POE1 forums, CON should give +DR so people are discouraged from dumping it.

 

Aside from that, I see no practical use to the split hp/endurance pool mechanic, and I for one would like for it to go away.

It ruins Monks.

 

 

I get where you coming from and it does suck for monks in the early game, but the early game is by far the most challenging part anyways.

 

You perfectly describe the advantages already:

It prevents cheesing and forces you to rethink your tactics depending on your health.

It adds a long term strategic layer.

 

Yeah it is a single player game, but like it has been discussed in countless balance threads, many people don't like cheese. It either makes the game way to easy or the cheese the only possible way to play.

The health split surely wasn't executed perfectly, but I think many issues like it's unforgiveness (specially for monks) could be iterated on and I for one am pretty sad that they seem to abandon it.


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#74
dam

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I hated the health mechanic, when playing on Hard difficulty. One battle going poorly (most often due to poor positioning at the start of it) meant that I'd have to rest with most of my spells and other per-day resources left, and nothing felt worse, other than perhaps the stronghold hirelings payment reminding me that I didn't get enough done that week.

 

As far as I'm concerned, Dragon Age "solved" the health mechanic problem eight years ago: One pool of fairly generous HP resource, which when it drains the character falls unconscious and receives a wound which can be eliminated by either "resting" (returning to camp in DAO or your manor/shack in DA2) or using an injury kit. The challenge became at least keeping one person standing at the end of combat, and ideally keeping everyone up so you're not wasting time or money.

 

Health/Endurance just meant that the monk was inevitably going to drag everyone else down, every single day.

 

This, most definitely.

Single reason I stopped playing a Monk.

 

No matter how good you are, how well you gear, how min-maxed you built, your Monk is going to need Rest for no other reason than him existing.

 

This is needlessly punishing towards a class that's meant to be played that way.

 

 

 

One has to ask themselves, what's the actual value of endurance/hp split pools, what core mechanic does it provide ?

It prevents people from cheesing fights with constant tanking and healing ? So what if they wanted to play that way ? This is a single player game.

It forces people to Rest from time to time for realism ? So what if they don't care about it ?

It punishes them for playing a 10 CON monk ? Well maybe they are confident in their ability to keep him alive even with 10 CON.

 

If the main incentive is to give the CON stat some measure of value, then the problem lies with the CON stat itself and not the need for split endurance/hp pools.

As per my suggestion on the POE1 forums, CON should give +DR so people are discouraged from dumping it.

 

Aside from that, I see no practical use to the split hp/endurance pool mechanic, and I for one would like for it to go away.

It ruins Monks.

 

 

I get where you coming from and it does suck for monks in the early game, but the early game is by far the most challenging part anyways.

 

You perfectly describe the advantages already:

It prevents cheesing and forces you to rethink your tactics depending on your health.

It adds a long term strategic layer.

 

Yeah it is a single player game, but like it has been discussed in countless balance threads, many people don't like cheese. It either makes the game way to easy or the cheese the only possible way to play.

The health split surely wasn't executed perfectly, but I think many issues like it's unforgiveness (specially for monks) could be iterated on and I for one am pretty sad that they seem to abandon it.

 

 

One would argue that people who do not like cheese are free to not cheese, in that case ;)

 

It's like the old debate years ago for devs to implement a respec character option.

Some people somehow managed to say that while it would be an OPTION, its mere presence would offend them and diminish their experience... 'kay...

 

 

 

I appreciate that you liked the mechanic, I for one shan't be too sad to be honest, Monks happened to be amongst my favourite classes.

For example, it's practically impossible to get the achievement to rest < 10 times, with a monk.

You just have to, you're going into fights with 33/105 endurance because you're down to 33 hp.

You're actually getting punished for not resting, even though the core mechanics of your class require you to lose endurance (and thus, HP).

You could always make a CON, RESOLVE, shield wielding monk but then what's the point in playing one ?

 

 

 

I would definitely be okay with the mechanic if we had some way of regenerating it in combat.

Want to last longer in fights ? 'kay, but you need to sacrifice DPS for that.

That's a deal I would take.

I don't get to Bless my party another 30 seconds, but instead I get to regenerate HP, works for me.



#75
Wormerine

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I thought that the very point of health vs stamina is that you can't regenerate it:-).

I just would like to hear more imput on why the change is happening. So far the reason we heard was: "we liked it but some people got confused at first" which is an odd reason to move to a different system, which I see it as inferior. I might be wrong, but a good argumentation can go a long way.

I didn't like the fact that they changed party size to 5 characters. But the reason for that sounds solid. As they didn't seem to be as confident about the change to health system I yell anytime I have a chance to let them know I like the old system.
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#76
rjshae

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I just would like to hear more imput on why the change is happening. So far the reason we heard was: "we liked it but some people got confused at first" which is an odd reason to move to a different system, which I see it as inferior. I might be wrong, but a good argumentation can go a long way.

 

I have to think that a Wounds system will actually make things more complex for players, and maybe more confusing. Is this wound serious enough that I need to rest? Which wound is particularly damaging to what combat tactic? Should I reload an easy fight to avoid that one wound?

 

OTOH, a wounds system does give combat damage more of a sense of realism, in contrast to an abstract Health counter.



#77
Lamppost in Winter

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wjfC3MY.png

 

Injuries also reducing max health alleviates one of my concerns; though I'd still prefer the old system.



#78
oholio

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Last paragraph seems to suggest that nothing's set in stone just yet though.

 

yNyIN1R.png

 

If there's enough beta tester feedback in favor of the old Health/Stamina system that is...



#79
anameforobsidian

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One would argue that people who do not like cheese are free to not cheese, in that case ;)

 

It's like the old debate years ago for devs to implement a respec character option.

Some people somehow managed to say that while it would be an OPTION, its mere presence would offend them and diminish their experience... 'kay...

 

 

 

I appreciate that you liked the mechanic, I for one shan't be too sad to be honest, Monks happened to be amongst my favourite classes.

For example, it's practically impossible to get the achievement to rest < 10 times, with a monk.

You just have to, you're going into fights with 33/105 endurance because you're down to 33 hp.

You're actually getting punished for not resting, even though the core mechanics of your class require you to lose endurance (and thus, HP).

You could always make a CON, RESOLVE, shield wielding monk but then what's the point in playing one ?

 

 

 

I would definitely be okay with the mechanic if we had some way of regenerating it in combat.

Want to last longer in fights ? 'kay, but you need to sacrifice DPS for that.

That's a deal I would take.

I don't get to Bless my party another 30 seconds, but instead I get to regenerate HP, works for me.

 

 

A couple points:

- Using the no rest achievement is a complete and utter bull**** metric.  It's on the outside of what the game system does anyways, and normally done as a special run.  Furthermore, it's easiest to do with a solo / sneaky character and based off skills anyways.  Skills are not class-based.  Murderbot 9000 is not going to get that achievement, regardless of class.  That's why it's an achievement, and not you know, the normal way you play the game.  

- Yes, Monks have to lose health, but the wound threshold is only 100 points of health; 80 if specced for it.  Monks get more far more HP than the average class to make up for it; only Barbarians get more.  A level 16 monk usually has 260 points of health higher than a fighter, and far more than other classes with lower health conversion.  At that point you're talking about reaching full wounds for 3 fights without penalty.  Far more if you build your monk with more Con.  

- If you want to ignore a highly recommended stat, the game shouldn't go out of its way to support your build.  It should allow it to be viable, but yes, build choices have tradeoffs.

- There are not one but two feats that allow regeneration of health, that's pumping 60% of health back in one rest.  On your average monk that's something like 1000 extra points of health; or full wounds for 10 - 13 extra fights.

- It's true that the difference is lower earlier on, however Monks maintain a substantial itemization edge through the game with the potential damage and deflection increase largely nullifying the health drawback.

 

 

Given this evidence, I'd hardly say that health is the liability you assume.


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#80
dam

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One would argue that people who do not like cheese are free to not cheese, in that case ;)

 

It's like the old debate years ago for devs to implement a respec character option.

Some people somehow managed to say that while it would be an OPTION, its mere presence would offend them and diminish their experience... 'kay...

 

 

 

I appreciate that you liked the mechanic, I for one shan't be too sad to be honest, Monks happened to be amongst my favourite classes.

For example, it's practically impossible to get the achievement to rest < 10 times, with a monk.

You just have to, you're going into fights with 33/105 endurance because you're down to 33 hp.

You're actually getting punished for not resting, even though the core mechanics of your class require you to lose endurance (and thus, HP).

You could always make a CON, RESOLVE, shield wielding monk but then what's the point in playing one ?

 

 

 

I would definitely be okay with the mechanic if we had some way of regenerating it in combat.

Want to last longer in fights ? 'kay, but you need to sacrifice DPS for that.

That's a deal I would take.

I don't get to Bless my party another 30 seconds, but instead I get to regenerate HP, works for me.

 

 

A couple points:

- Using the no rest achievement is a complete and utter bull**** metric. It's on the outside of what the game system does anyways, and normally done as a special run.  Furthermore, it's easiest to do with a solo / sneaky character and based off skills anyways.  Skills are not class-based.  Murderbot 9000 is not going to get that achievement, regardless of class.  That's why it's an achievement, and not you know, the normal way you play the game.  

- Yes, Monks have to lose health, but the wound threshold is only 100 points of health; 80 if specced for it.  Monks get more far more HP than the average class to make up for it; only Barbarians get more.  A level 16 monk usually has 260 points of health higher than a fighter, and far more than other classes with lower health conversion.  At that point you're talking about reaching full wounds for 3 fights without penalty.  Far more if you build your monk with more Con.  

- If you want to ignore a highly recommended stat, the game shouldn't go out of its way to support your build.  It should allow it to be viable, but yes, build choices have tradeoffs.

- There are not one but two feats that allow regeneration of health, that's pumping 60% of health back in one rest.  On your average monk that's something like 1000 extra points of health; or full wounds for 10 - 13 extra fights.

- It's true that the difference is lower earlier on, however Monks maintain a substantial itemization edge through the game with the potential damage and deflection increase largely nullifying the health drawback.

 

 

Given this evidence, I'd hardly say that health is the liability you assume.

 

 

 

Yeah no I'm gonna have to dislike the "bullshat metric" bit o_O

By engaging in the discussion you're bound by the forum rules to respect other users, including their opinion even if you don't like it.

Calling it (and thus my argument) bullshat is anything but respectful, so would you please edit that and, I don't know, see if you can use a slightly more empathic word ?

 

 

You do make cogent points however and I'd totally forgotten about Field Triage (although I dislike the idea of burning a talent on that), that one's my bad.

 

I still dislike this system anyway, it forces me to rest for no other reason than having been able to survive fights, having spare spells left, but just no hp anymore.

And the worst about that is, again, what actual value does it bring ?

 

See the thing is, camping supplies are plentiful, or you can just return to Caed Nua and deal with 4 loading screens.

 

 

Is the provided value immersion and realism ?

It doesn't work for me to be honest.

I understand how it has appeal for some players who think "Look you just can't be hurt/healed 24/7 and keep going for 8 days".

 

However, I on the other hand, really like the proposed system and traps actually inflicting wounds.

That, would provide more immersion to me than the HP pool depletion.

 

Step on a spike ? ouchie

Get crit to the head and lose 2/3 your life ? son that's got to be leaving a dent eh ?

 

 

Last, back to the topic of CON offering not much value :

All the other stats, every single one of them, has actual use in combat.

CON's value only kicks in IF you get yourself hit and IF you get bursted down (I'm not factoring in the hp/endurance split here because again, you can rest whenever you want basically).

With proper positioning, use of consumables and/or spells, that is not going to be a problem very often.

There is a reason CON has become a dump stat in 3.0.

 

Obviously I'm not gonna try and force anyone to agree with my own, biased opinion.

If we're gonna discuss the merits of the proposed system however, then this is my stance on it ;)


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