Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

Split Health/Stamina


  • Please log in to reply
120 replies to this topic

#41
morhilane

morhilane

    Chanter and Keeper of Truth of the Obsidian Order

  • Members
  • 784 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Gold Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

The injury stuff sounds interesting...

But, passively regenerating health out of combat, is it true?


Considering the new system they are playing with has no health, it can't be regenerating. ;)

It also doesn't mean that Stamina will regenerate even if it did in POE1.

#42
Zaraxx

Zaraxx

    (0) Nub

  • Initiates
  • 1 posts

As someone more or less new to the genre (only played a little bit of BG and BGII back in the day) I can ensure you that there's nothing too confusing about the health mechanic in Pillars. The separation into long-term health (at 0 = dead or optionally maimed) and short-term endurance (at 0 = just KO-ed) may seem somewhat strange on paper first but once you take it to practice it makes a whole lot of sense. Took me exactly the first two fights (vs. the 2 Young Wolfs and vs. the 2 Glanfathans that killed poor Sparfel) to get a grip of it.
And after 3 and a half playthroughs I'm now so used to it that it'd be sad to see it replaced with something simplified or streamlined.

OP and a few others got it right: Instead of tinkering and trying to improve (for the worse) on an already improved mechanic you (Obsidian) should try to come up with an "idiot-proof" tutorial to cover all kinds of player demographics. The overwhelming majority of the core audience already is familiar with the split mechanic from Pillars anyway.


  • dukeisaac likes this

#43
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    (10) Necromancer

  • Members
  • 1511 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

The separation into long-term health (at 0 = dead or optionally maimed) and short-term endurance (at 0 = just KO-ed) may seem somewhat strange on paper first but once you take it to practice it makes a whole lot of sense.

Watching an NPC hitting a warrior being insta-healed back by a priest, was always making me wonder, how could a character suffer such health-swings without any consequences. Endlessly.


Edited by MaxQuest, 06 February 2017 - 09:55 AM.


#44
HoopleDoople

HoopleDoople

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 89 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Of all the proposed changes for PoE2 the injury system makes the least amount of sense to me. I always thought the health/endurance system was pretty ingenious and improved the game in multiple ways.

 

  • Healing could have a much larger impact without being overpowered. No amount of healing will prevent a character from eventually running out of health.
  • Constitution delivered a lot more value when you didn't just need enough endurance to avoid being knocked out before healing. High Constitution really made a difference for front line characters and dumping Constitution had a real penalty even for backline characters (at least after the attribute rebalance).
  • Easier fights were much more compelling when taking the effort to beat them efficiently provided real value.
  • The limitation of a health pool provided much needed encouragement to fully utilize per rest abilities. I personally struggle with the "too awesome to use" syndrome and tend to avoid using any limited resources outside of the toughest fights because I might need it later. Health bars were a convenient way for me to estimate the time until rest and properly utilize the per rest abilities.
  • One of my favorite self-imposed challenges is to require all party members to survive a battle for it to count as a victory. Another challenge I often use (sometimes alongside the first one) is strict resting limitations. In both cases the health/endurance system enhances the difficulty and enjoyment of the challenge.

I honestly found the injuries present in PoE to be annoying and would if anything like to see them scaled back rather than expanded in PoE2. Whereas the penalty associated with losing health started out minimal and scaled smoothly up to massively debilitating, the penalty of being injured was pretty binary (have injuries or not) and somewhat random (how often or not is your lowered reflex, for example, going to be targeted?). Injuries via scripted events always felt very unfair, especially when paired with the loss of acquiring a favorable outcome (e.g. obtain an item). It's not like it wasn't super easy to get around this by utilizing reloading and/or a walkthrough.


  • Hertzila, Silent Winter, demeisen and 3 others like this

#45
dukeisaac

dukeisaac

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 131 posts
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

  • Easier fights were much more compelling when taking the effort to beat them efficiently provided real value.

+1


  • MaxQuest likes this

#46
draego

draego

    (5) Thaumaturgist

  • Members
  • 533 posts
  • Lords of the Eastern Reach Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

i actually really liked the health system also in POE1 however one drawback that i did see was traps. Traps ended up have to be twisted all up because they couldnt really hurt the player since they really only caused health damage and not endurance damage (since endurance went right back up). So you ended up with traps that would cause you huge amounts of damage but only a tiny bit of damage if you laid the same trap. But even with that you were fine for the next fight. 



#47
Madscientist

Madscientist

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 705 posts
  • Deadfire Silver Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I liked the system of PoE1. For me it worked as intended. You could do several simple fights in a row and even clear an entire dungeon without resting if you were a good player. But hard battles forced you to manage your resources, so you do not run out of health. So running around with a passive regeneration or drinking potions like crazy was not the ultimate way to defeat a dragon.

 

about the wound system:

- In tyranny it was confusing because you did not know when exactly will you get a wound (I made a suggestion in the tyranny forums). It would be easy to understand if you get a wound only if you get knocked out or in some scripted interactions (like you miss the skill check for climbing a wall).

- I dislike regenerating HP out of combat in a classic RPG. The way how the IE games did it was simple enough for me.

- One of the better examples for a wound system is drakensang. If a char gets more damage than his constitution score he must make a saving throw or get a wound. Each wound lowers your stats and you die if you get more than 4 wounds, no matter how many HP you had left. Some weapons or special attacks had a higher chance to inflict wounds. It was an effective way to kill some enemies with many HP (like ogres), but some enemies were immun to wounds (most bosses plus some others). In combat you should avoid getting wounds, because each wound makes it more likely to get another wound and you are busy removing your wounds (with spells or herbs) wich means you are not busy attacking the enemy.


  • MaxQuest likes this

#48
demeisen

demeisen

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 334 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I also liked the dual-mode system.  There were times I felt it wasn't quite balanced well between classes, but that's a detail.  The core of it is a good idea, and I had more fun with it than I'd have had without.

​I won't try to claim it's the best possible system though, so if Ob can work out a better one, cool.  The important concept to me is to have a mechanic requiring consideration of resources over significant time, rather than just per battle.  (I hate insta-regen mechanics.  Leave that to the Diablos of the RPG world).  I want my party to get ground down in the process of exploring a dungeon, with few or no ways to regenerate or even escape early, so that before you can get home again, your backs are up against the wall and you need to fight tooth and nail to survive.  The first part of WM1 was nice in that way, especially if you did it as soon as you could so you weren't over-leveled for it.  I want a broader scope of resource consideration than a single fight.  It's something that's gone missing from many modern RPGs in the endless push for simplified experiences, so I was glad to see at least a partial restoration of the idea in PoE1.

​I'm not a huge fan of wound-based systems: "you broke your knee; sorry, all fights from here are with a broken knee ... but it's just fine after a night's sleep".  It might work if wounds can be healed by some class and that ability comes out of a fixed resource pool that's depleted over the course of a dungeon area.  Generally, I prefer a more resource based scheme: a fixed pool of spells, special melee abilities, perhaps consumables, whatever else, and I need to work out how to get out of this place alive with what's on my back.  I need to be careful even with the "trash fights" to not over-spend resources, because I'll need those resources for the much harder fight I'm about to encounter.  Of course that's hard to balance when people can encounter content at radically different levels.  Not saying it's easy :biggrin:.



#49
Evolk

Evolk

    (0) Nub

  • Initiates
  • 2 posts

No experimenting needed here as far as I'm concerned.
The split system perfectly serves the purpose and I thought, and still think that its duality is quite ingenious and unique.
Splitting vitality into endurance and health also is an arguably better abstraction of reality than just a single health bar.

There's nothing hard or difficult to understand about it as well. Deadfire just needs a similar "training ground" intro like the caravan encampment/Cilant Lis prologue in POE with (optional ofc) tutorials popping up accordingly at the appropriate time and place, and all should be well.


  • Hertzila, demeisen, Rolandur and 2 others like this

#50
PugPug

PugPug

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 261 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

My theory immediately upon seeing the health/stamina system was that they wanted to include regenerating health without going full-blown regenerating health.

 

Game design is moving toward it for a good reason: A saved game should never be locked in a no-win scenario. On the other hand, regeneration removes a level of resource management, so a lot of players feel it dumbs down the strategy. So Obsidian came up with the health/stamina compromise.

 

I think whatever they do should be another form of compromise. I haven't followed all of the details trickling out so I'm not sure what the plan is, but if it's injury debuffs replacing depleting health, that actually sounds pretty good to me. It's much easier to see exactly how the battle has been wearing down your characters. Even understanding the health/stamina system, exact information wasn't really conveyed well. It also might make it a little easier to keep going than it is right now when 1 character has very low health and everyone else is doing pretty well.



#51
Eurhetemec

Eurhetemec

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 180 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Please consider carrying over the split health/stamina mechanic from POE.

 

Just because "some people" had a hard time understanding how it works is no reason to scrap it altogether. There surely should be enough time to come up with an absolutely idiot-proof way of communicating what that green bar represents or why characters aren't dying despite their portraits filling up with red.

 

If I heard that right during yesterdays Q&A even Josh is more in favour of the split health/stamina mechanic, so why not stick with it?

 

The original system was great in a lot of ways, but I think people do need to accept that it wasn't flawless, and main problem was not comprehension, at least as far as I can tell - I mean, I'm sure some people had that problem, but I think the problems run a bit deeper.

Specifically, the other problems with Health/Endurance are:

 

1) One character being on low health means you have to consider resting, even if everyone else is fine. This is somewhat out of your hands, unlike spell usage. It's not really an exciting or interesting choice, either, it just encourages a bit more use of resting (but even on Hard you typically find enough supplies to rest whenever you want - only on PotD does it get more extreme - but even then you can usually just go back and get more supplies, a bit tediously).

 

2) Perverse incentive - It often makes more sense to let someone go down than to try and keep them up with the Health system, because they're getting pummeled, and whilst you can keep them up, often fairly easily, they're going to be ground down to very low health - and the long-term problems with that are much worse than just having 5 out of 6 people in the fight.

 

They put in the extra health loss on down and injuries to try and make this a bad choice, but it's still more often the right choice than it feels like it should be.

 

It also penalizes lower-DPS, higher-survivability builds, but whether that's a good thing or a bad thing is very subjective.

 

What they seem to be doing is dumping Health and making Injuries the main stick - this will eliminate the perverse incentive entirely, and also lessen the "one character is low on health" issue - making it instead "one character as a lot of injuries" - but that will be more your fault. It also eliminates the penalty to low-DPS, high-survivability builds, but that could be seen as good, bad, or neither.


Edited by Eurhetemec, 13 February 2017 - 12:50 PM.


#52
Tigranes

Tigranes

    Obsidian VIP

  • Members
  • 10168 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Silver Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Why is 1) a problem? If resting were only required when all party members were critical, then the game would need to be a lot more difficult or nobody would ever need to rest. There is some degree of noninteresting tedium here, yes, but that's coming from resting as a system in itself. 

 

Re. 2) seems like in difficult battles you need people standing to make that crucial action, while in easy battles it's over quick enough that you won't lose that many buckets. I'm not sure this has ever been a salient thing for me, but maybe it has for others?

 

I'm OK with the injury system, but it's going to need to be a lot more robust than what we see in POE1. Often they're of the type that many players won't even notice.



#53
injurai

injurai

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1246 posts
  • Location:Not the oceans
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

I honestly don't think they need to change the rest or health system. All that was needed to fix the issues with spam resting, or excess use of per encounter spell rotations was to incorporate the empower mechanic.



#54
Insidous

Insidous

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 36 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

 

1) One character being on low health means you have to consider resting, even if everyone else is fine. This is somewhat out of your hands, unlike spell usage. It's not really an exciting or interesting choice, either, it just encourages a bit more use of resting (but even on Hard you typically find enough supplies to rest whenever you want - only on PotD does it get more extreme - but even then you can usually just go back and get more supplies, a bit tediously).

 

 

 

It lies in your hands in so far as that you could have prevented that character from taking damage and instead of resting you can choose to protect that character in upcoming fights. It adds strategy and I consider it a really interesting choice.

 

If I ever had to go back for supplies it was a clear signal that I played on a too high of a difficulty level or were too low in character level for that area. Something has to encourage resting and the balance of per rest abilities and health was perfectly suited. In fact a limited resting, injury only system is very binary. Either you survive your average fights, meaning you never have to rest, or people get knocked out, becoming weaker and force you to rest every couple of fights anyways and so quickly using all your supplies. With the Stamina/Health system everybody needed to rest once in a while, meaning there were plenty of supplies to find and they were never quite useless.

 

Could the system be more forgiving sometimes? Yeah probably. Having healing abilities tied to the skill system instead of talents for example, would make skilling them less of a waste and helping a lot with single low health characters. 

 

 

Re. 2) seems like in difficult battles you need people standing to make that crucial action, while in easy battles it's over quick enough that you won't lose that many buckets. I'm not sure this has ever been a salient thing for me, but maybe it has for others?

 

 

Yeah, it hasn't been in issue for me and with knockout injuries it seems hardly useful.

Yeah never has been an issue for me neither. Seems hardly useful with knockout injuries being a thing.


  • Hertzila likes this

#55
rjshae

rjshae

    Arch-Mage

  • Members
  • 4668 posts
  • Location:Seattle, WA
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Kickstarter Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

- One of the better examples for a wound system is drakensang. If a char gets more damage than his constitution score he must make a saving throw or get a wound. Each wound lowers your stats and you die if you get more than 4 wounds, no matter how many HP you had left. Some weapons or special attacks had a higher chance to inflict wounds. It was an effective way to kill some enemies with many HP (like ogres), but some enemies were immun to wounds (most bosses plus some others). In combat you should avoid getting wounds, because each wound makes it more likely to get another wound and you are busy removing your wounds (with spells or herbs) wich means you are not busy attacking the enemy.

 

I too enjoyed the wound system in Drakensang. A benefit of that approach is that medical supplies such as bandages became useful, even during combat.



#56
lettiv

lettiv

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 6 posts

I don't see the issue(s) with POE's health/stamina mechanic either.

There are always characters that bruise more easily, whether for the role they occupy in the party (the "tank") or because they're just squishier (the "glass cannon") than others.

Figuring out how to keep them alive or more importantly, keep them conscious during combat is half the challenge and half the fun. Do I use one of the few precious charges of Consecrated Ground or Watchful Presence which would also benefit the rest of the party but could be of better use later on or do I concentrate on keeping the squishy party member on his/her feet with Lay on Hands or Second Wind?

For restoring long-term health there's always Field Triage or Wound Binding you can use on single characters instead of "wasting" resting supplies. Which I found were available or could be looted fairly regularly and in just the right amount on pretty much every map, even on Path of the Damned. At times they were even a bit too abundant for my taste.

So... I too would rather they stick with the established split mechanic from POE than wasting time and resources on improving or overhauling something that probably just needs a bit more fine-tuning instead. And maybe another attempt at communicating how it works, if there are really people that still "don't get it" nearly two years later.


  • demeisen likes this

#57
Pel

Pel

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 28 posts
  • Location:twitch.tv/Pelmaleon
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

As a huge fan of Dragon Age Origins and injury mechanics in crpgs, I like the new system way more. The Endurance/Health split didn't make much realistic or logical sense anyway, it was just mechanically fitting for the amount of rest-pacing Obsidian created for the first game. It felt like it gave some dragon fights a time-limit/dps-check of sorts if you had a lot of healers, so it felt a bit gimmicky - it kind of felt like Eder's Health WAS his Endurance as he could only take so much of a beating before giving out.



#58
Pel

Pel

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 28 posts
  • Location:twitch.tv/Pelmaleon
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Not to mention that I occasionally had to trek all the way back to town after a long dungeon-crawl before a big boss fight just to get my max health back up to full even though I had sufficient spells for said boss fight - then I had to face the TRUE hardest boss of Pillars 1, the Loading Screen.



#59
Bluedemonfox

Bluedemonfox

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 17 posts
  • Location:Malta

I don't understand... where did they say they are removing the current health split mechanic, and why? I thought it was quite an interesting mechanic...



#60
Lamppost in Winter

Lamppost in Winter

    (3) Conjurer

  • Members
  • 188 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

I don't understand... where did they say they are removing the current health split mechanic, and why? I thought it was quite an interesting mechanic...

 

 Josh stated on a Q&A stream that they were experimenting with replacing Health with Injuries, but it's not set in stone yet.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users