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Split Health/Stamina


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#21
L4wlight

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#22
Rolandur

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Thank you this was the information I was missing! =)

 

Also, why doesn't he just do all question answering here? Awkward having to chase a dev across the internet when home is here. Are we too scary? lol


Edited by Rolandur, 02 February 2017 - 04:03 PM.

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#23
eisenschwein

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They said they're still experimenting so fortunately nothing's set in stone just yet.

Would be pretty stupid though to throw a, imho perfectly working and quite innovative "gamified" representation of a character's vitality over board. Especially if it'd be for some people's lack of willingness to invest some time to understand and get the hang of things. There isn't anything hard or particularly difficult to understand about POE's health/endurance system to begin with.

I hope Sawyer's preference for the POE approach (which apparently he also proposed and pushed for) prevails in the end.


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#24
Aotrs Commander

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Ho hum.

 

I thought the old system was really clever.

 

In a lot of ways, it worked better than per-rest resources as a method of determining whether or not a rest was required.

 

I am to vaguely understand there's some sort of injury system at lay instead (something like Dragon Age Origins, maybe?) Though I'm not sure that will not just encourage resting to get rid of injuries instead of because the health is low, but whatever, I guess...

 

Apparently not, looking at the link in the posts prior. *shrug*


Edited by Aotrs Commander, 02 February 2017 - 04:45 PM.

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#25
Lamppost in Winter

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Cheers, L4wlight. With death still in, I'm fine with either system, though the old one has more room for granularity.



#26
Osvir

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The injury stuff sounds interesting...

But, passively regenerating health out of combat, is it true?

#27
anameforobsidian

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I was quite a fan of health / stamina.  It encouraged me to rest far more than losing spells did, and combined with limited resting supplies, it encouraged me to get that really good dungeon experience where my beaten up characters had to face one last fight before they could sleep.


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#28
Hemmer

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The injury stuff sounds interesting...

But, passively regenerating health out of combat, is it true?

 

No, someone must be trolling.

 

 

They said they're still experimenting so fortunately nothing's set in stone just yet.

Would be pretty stupid though to throw a, imho perfectly working and quite innovative "gamified" representation of a character's vitality over board. Especially if it'd be for some people's lack of willingness to invest some time to understand and get the hang of things. There isn't anything hard or particularly difficult to understand about POE's health/endurance system to begin with.

I hope Sawyer's preference for the POE approach (which apparently he also proposed and pushed for) prevails in the end.

 

Exactly.

Never touch a running system.


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#29
Aramintai

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Never liked this split health/stamina feature, but I understand that it was there to make injuries feature viable. If they go with simple health bar personally I'd be glad.



#30
Ninjamestari

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I didn't really like the whole Endurance concept from the original game. I think that if a character falls in combat, it should die and not just be knocked out.



#31
desel

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The injury stuff sounds interesting...

But, passively regenerating health out of combat, is it true?

 

No, someone must be trolling.

 

 

They said they're still experimenting so fortunately nothing's set in stone just yet.

Would be pretty stupid though to throw a, imho perfectly working and quite innovative "gamified" representation of a character's vitality over board. Especially if it'd be for some people's lack of willingness to invest some time to understand and get the hang of things. There isn't anything hard or particularly difficult to understand about POE's health/endurance system to begin with.

I hope Sawyer's preference for the POE approach (which apparently he also proposed and pushed for) prevails in the end.

 

Exactly.

Never touch a running system.

 

 

Like eisenschwein said, they're still experimenting and trying out things, and the CURRENT iteration is just using Stamina, but that's still subject to change.

 

No idea how people are coming up with nonsense like "regenerating health" when there's no mention of anything like that in Josh's answer from the Q&A?:

 

Q: Is a characters vitality still split into Health and Stamina, are multiple stages fatigue, injuries, afflictions and different "death" states still a thing in Pillars of Eternity 2, and are those negative statuses still only removable/curable by resting?

 

A: Right now, what we are experimenting with is a system that uses injuries as the main way of gating players needing to rest. At least in terms of damage taken. We're not using the Health system, we're using just the—well, we now have, whether you want to call it hit points or health, we have essentially what was Stamina in the first game. If you get knocked out you'll get injuries, and injuries are a thing you want to rest to get rid of. We're keeping all the injuries. Fatigue can be one of those injuries, we abandoned the sort of time-based fatigue a long time ago. The idea is that when you rest that's how you get rid of those things. You can also get injuries from things like scripted interactions, if you miss a check when you do a jump or something like that; you can hurt your knee or your elbow or your shoulder. Things like that. All that stuff is still in place. We're experimenting with a healthless system using injuries primarily as the gating mechanism for it.

Personally, I really liked the Health mechanic. A lot of people found it confusing. We tried various ways of communicating it...I think that injuries do a pretty good job, and so I'd like to experiment at least with using injuries as the primary means for driving resting.

We'll see. Like I said, I was the person who proposed and pushed for that mechanic, but I also don't want a bunch of people to not really understand what the hell is going on.


Edited by desel, 03 February 2017 - 04:22 AM.

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#32
Osvir

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The injury stuff sounds interesting...

But, passively regenerating health out of combat, is it true?

No, someone must be trolling.
anameforobsidian (link where I read it) isn't trolling or trying to misinform. Maybe just a case of "misunderstanding" or "assumptions".

Edited by Osvir, 03 February 2017 - 04:06 AM.


#33
MaxQuest

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attachicon.gifii.jpg

Thank god. Getting injuries just because you dropped to low hp, was a bit annoying in Tyranny's early-mid game. 
It's like: I have 50% hp left, decide to save that 100% restore potion for a little bit later use. Boom, a hostile spell hits you through improved Energy Shield and you get an injury to the face.

Edited by MaxQuest, 03 February 2017 - 04:08 AM.


#34
mothra

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I admit I didn't really understand the split mechanic first time I played but as ppl above pointed out it was more that my preconceived notion of "what health is" was wrong and I failed to connect the dots. But I didn't go to the internet to cry about it because I also thought "there must be something I am missing". Later it dawned on me and I actually started to like it.

(this was in the first 1-1.5 hours of playing mind you where I had to refresh my knowledge of attack/defense/accuracy/interrupt etc as well)

 

The best example for me where it totally made sense was the "spike room" in Caed Nua level 8 or 9 ???. You send someone through a room full of spikes and while he could regain health by stopping movement the constant pain of the spikes drained his endurance steadily. Such a scenario at the start of the game (tutorial dungeon) would have helped alot to explain that feature by "showing", not "telling". So I agree that the game could have done a better job of "showing" how it works instead of just "telling".

 

The new mechanic may be more intuitive because most players know what health/HP is but on the other hand if you tie death now to amount of injuries you got a new system you would have to "tell about" AND "show". One knockout and 2 failed scripted interactions later a player goes to 0 health and dies and proceeds to cry on the internet.


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#35
Osvir

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I think the tutorial dungeon does just that, or... I don't know, I actually never stepped on the glyph trap at the very start.

#36
Fluffle

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"Personally, I really liked the Health mechanic. A lot of people found it confusing. We tried various ways of communicating it..."

 

I dislike the reason, really.

 

I mean, obviously, as this health system was new for many players they would get "confused" in the beginning. Everyone has to learn new things at one point. I think it's a very bad reason. He is going to change the health system even though he likes it.
And if he thinks people find the old health system confusing then just wait until multi classing comes with PoE2.

 

He said they tried various ways of communicating. I still believe it is a matter of communication and of course training. The player has to get used to that health system if he has never experienced something similar before.That is only natural. That should not be a reason to scratch it in my opinion.


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#37
Fluffle

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On the other hand it shows he is a developer who is ready to change game mechanisms that he is in favor of for the sake of the players.


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#38
mothra

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I think the tutorial dungeon does just that, or... I don't know, I actually never stepped on the glyph trap at the very start.

 

I think the glyph traps were there to teach the player about scouting mode, disabling traps and that you can circumvent it by solving puzzles or exploration.

There was no room that forced you to walk through a hazard and show you the drain on endurance.



#39
virgi26

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so if you get injuries only when you are KOed, doesn't that mean that fighters with really good regen will be basically immortal? IN POE1 there is a limit for regen.



#40
Insidous

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This topic finally pushed me to make an account here, so hello everybody!

 

So let me start by saying that I personally tried to avoid resting as much as possible and really only did it when it made sense. Like I thought resting just outside the los of the final dungeon boss was pretty dumb. But even if you were more liberal, one thing that always stood out for me in PoE was the strategic element the health/endurance system introduced.

 

In all the easy and medium encounters you had to make the choice: Do I use some per rest abilities or do I rather lose some more health? Even without vancian casting, now every class has per rest abilities. Without health/endurance though, this choice only matters when someone could get knocked out -  only in the more difficult encounters.

 

Yes we will probably have less trash mops and better encounters, but lets not kid our self: There will be a lot of easy fights. Can I now fight dozens of xaurip groups with my characters staying fresh and blank? No careful approach about losing health or spending spells etc. could make most fights pretty meaningless I fear.


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