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My barbarian. Guess I am not doing it right...

barbarian

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#21
JerekKruger

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To quote the OP:

 

... I have to say that barbs using INT is kind of bad, I would even say kind of crazy. But I got used to it......

 

It might be a case of things getting lost in translation, but that sounds a lot like "Barbarians shouldn't use Intellect" to me.

 

As for Intellect being required for a Barbarian, I'd agree that it is perhaps the most obviously useful Attribute for the class, but you're not going to be gimping yourself that much if you went with, say, Intellect 10. Dumping your Intellect down to 3 is probably possible too, though you'll essentially be playing without Carnage and so the Barbarian will be rather different.



#22
Boeroer

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You can play with INT 3 and you will most of the time hit 3 foes at once if you don't flank but stand in the midst and enemies surround you. And you can also have +INT items which also will help a bit. But a lot of the barb's abilities are influenced by INT, for example Frenzy, Bloodlust, Savage & Stalwart Defiance, the yells and shouts and so on. Since most of those already have quite short durations dumping INT has a very noticeable effect and makes those ability less attractive.
Longer durations are a big plus if you have a barb - that's one reason why Spelltongue on a barb is so nice.

So it is true (for me) that INT is one of the most precious stats for a barb - and it feels weird sometimes. Not because all barbs should be dumb, but they don't have the reputation of being extraordinarily smart either.

But I still like PoE's stats system.

I have the same "problem" with fighters and monks by the way: can't make them without high INT. :)

Edited by Boeroer, 11 January 2017 - 02:39 AM.


#23
Gromnir

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To quote the OP:

 

... I have to say that barbs using INT is kind of bad, I would even say kind of crazy. But I got used to it......

 

It might be a case of things getting lost in translation, but that sounds a lot like "Barbarians shouldn't use Intellect" to me.

 

As for Intellect being required for a Barbarian, I'd agree that it is perhaps the most obviously useful Attribute for the class, but you're not going to be gimping yourself that much if you went with, say, Intellect 10. Dumping your Intellect down to 3 is probably possible too, though you'll essentially be playing without Carnage and so the Barbarian will be rather different.

disingenuous as josh.  you made a generalization 'bout "people." plural.  and your own suggested build in this thread? no  recommended build in this thread uses less than 15 for int.  so, let's be honest, yes?

 

and yeah, as Gromnir has noted elsewhere, the starting attributes is less important in poe than in most other crpgs.  that being said, josh (more than once) specific used a high intelligence barbarian as an example o' how a player can play against stereotype in poe.  regardless o' your personal notions, even the developers were tacit conceding that the norm for a barbarian would be other than a genius barbarian.  one need only look at this thread to recognizing how a genius barbarian is hardly a quirky-but-fun build.  in poe, the genius barbarian IS the norm.  as we observed earlier, you can play a low-intelligence barbarian, but you are clear working 'gainst the game mechanics by doing so. possible more than any other class in poe, the barbarian overwhelming benefits from a single ability and a single attribute.  is poor design considering the espoused poe development goals, and josh observation 'bout genius barbarians is backasswards given he is speaking direct 'bout how much freedom poe gives the player to create different and unique builds.  the poe genius barbarian is norm and not an example o' quirky unique.  in a game which boasts o' character generation options, it is more than passing strange how playing the barbarian crpg stereotype would actual be the challenging proposition.

 

HA! Good Fun!


Edited by Gromnir, 11 January 2017 - 03:37 AM.


#24
JerekKruger

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disingenuous as josh.  you made a generalization 'bout "people." plural.  and your own suggested build in this thread? no  recommended build in this thread uses less than 15 for int.  so, let's be honest, yes?

 

Fair point, I should have said "some people" - it's definitely not the first time I've seen someone talk about high Intellect making no sense for a Barbarian - but you're right that for many people the problem is more that it's just replacing one norm (dumb muscled brute) with another (intelligent low finesse brute) rather than giving allowing a new option.

 

I'd say the Obsidian came a lot closer than most (class based) CRPGs in achieving the "there are no bad stats" and "every class can benefit from every stat" objectives, but I agree that the Barbarian is one of the classes where this feels less true.



#25
Shadenuat

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It's true for many classes; you can't be wise and good healer without high Might (and dialogue options coming with that); a battle mage; a rogue who does high damage.

 

Thing is, as an example, PoE system means that you can't make a character that does a lot of damage because he is a master accurate deadly fencing rogue; you will always need high Might to keep up with other damage builds. As such we have high Might fighters, barbarians, rogues, wizards, priests, druids, whatever.

 

In my opinion, in that sense PoE system is not much better than d20 SRD/D&D or even worse; you can't replace your STR with CHA or DEX and call it a prestige or something, and make up a sensible in-world explanation how it works; everyone draws their damage from same source. Wizards, instead of drawing their damage from their skill with magic and thus being different than warriors also pump Might and so on. All ways of doing damage, including friggin guns, are tied to 1 attribute, and so characters become banal.



#26
JerekKruger

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Thing is, as an example, PoE system means that you can't make a character that does a lot of damage because he is a master accurate deadly fencing rogue; you will always need high Might to keep up with other damage builds. As such we have high Might fighters, barbarians, rogues, wizards, priests, druids, whatever.

 

Not true. Since everything is additive, Might quickly gets dwarfed by other damage bonuses for classes that have them. For example, a level 1 Fighter with Might 18 does 24% more damage than a level 1 Might 10 Fighter, but at level 6, if both have taken the appropriate Weapon Specialization and Weapon Mastery that drops to 19.2% (1.49/1.25). If both are using a two-handed weapon and have the two-handed weapon style that drops again to 17.1%. Finally, if we throw in Savage Attack it drops to 15%. Throw in buffs and gear that add to damage and the lead drops even more.

 

Of course, even if the Might 18 Fighter is only doing 10% more damage than the Might 10 Fighter that's still a decent chunk of damage. However the lower Might Fighter can invest those 8 points into another Attribute, probably Perception if doing damage is their aim. A crit is another +50% damage and every time the lower Might Fighter crits when the high Might Fighter doesn't they're doing 14.1% more damage and if they hit whilst the higher Might Fighter grazes they do 19.4% more damage.

 

Obviously who comes out ahead depends on the Deflection of the enemy they're facing, but it's not clear to me that a high Might Fighter necessarily comes out ahead.

 

This all applies to Rogues (much more so if you can activate Deathblows) and the Cipher (thanks to Biting Whip).


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#27
draego

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i agree with you JerekKruger and i think this attribute system is one of the most flexible i have run into. Its hard to go back to gated attribute for certain classes after this. I think it wasn't always perfect like in the barbarian case but for the most part you could do what you want and it was fun. I hope they keep it going this direction in the second game. And screw realism this is a game. The only reason i think barbarian intellect is hard to wrap your head around is because of past expectations like others have mentioned. I had the same issues at first then once you play its fine. 


Edited by jnb0364, 11 January 2017 - 07:53 AM.


#28
Dr <3

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Carnage aoe should depend from might and not from int
/Thread
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#29
Braven

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If there were optional class talents to encourage other stat distributions, that would be nice.  Maybe rogues could have a class talent to use dexterity instead of might for a damage modifier, but only if using small/fast weapons like dagger and rapiers.  This wouldn't be overpowered because rogues already benefit more from big weapons because of additive modifiers and higher base damage and it takes a talent to get it.  Just opens up the option for a traditional rogue to be more viable.

 

For barbarians, maybe they get a talent to increase the range of carnage so high intellect is now an option instead of a must-have.

 

It might be the reason some of these don't exist is more to do with how the game was programmed and how unity assets work than balance concerns.


Edited by Braven, 11 January 2017 - 10:38 AM.

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#30
JerekKruger

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Fingers crossed for such talents in PoE2 eh? 



#31
Gromnir

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disingenuous as josh.  you made a generalization 'bout "people." plural.  and your own suggested build in this thread? no  recommended build in this thread uses less than 15 for int.  so, let's be honest, yes?

 

Fair point, I should have said "some people" - it's definitely not the first time I've seen someone talk about high Intellect making no sense for a Barbarian - but you're right that for many people the problem is more that it's just replacing one norm (dumb muscled brute) with another (intelligent low finesse brute) rather than giving allowing a new option.

 

I'd say the Obsidian came a lot closer than most (class based) CRPGs in achieving the "there are no bad stats" and "every class can benefit from every stat" objectives, but I agree that the Barbarian is one of the classes where this feels less true.

 

as much as we loathe class-based systems, we have to admit obsidian did a fantastic job making the gameplay o' each class unique while also maximizing options and freedom.  can find dozens o' threads in which we applaud obsidian initial class building efforts.  which is why Gromnir is genuine surprised as developers continue to use the genius barbarian as a poster child for poe's flexibility. is so many better options to illustrate what poe does well 'stead o' using an example which would be one o' the most glaring development flaws o' the barbarian class. as you observed, obsidian largely took the "dumb muscled brute" and replaced it with another equal limited "norm."

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps am less than approving many o' the post release obsidian improvements of classes.  in a rush to improve classes via patches and the expansions, am thinking obsidian often broke more than they fixed.  the fighter, for example, were much transformed post release, and not for the better. sure, the fighter became more powerful, but it now resembles something it was clear intended to avoid: a d&d 1e-3.5e fighter.  go back and look at the class intro threads posted during development. 

 

http://forums.obsidi...and-barbarians/

 

am thinking something were lost in all the various class additions post release.



#32
Boeroer

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It would have been cool if barbs had a unique (but simple) resource system like monks (wounds), chanters (phrases) or ciphers (focus) have. One that influences some of their most prominent abilitites, like Carnage and Frenzy and maybe also the Yell. Something named rage or so, where rage would increase Carnage and Yell area and would fuel Frenzy (influences bonus or prolongs duration or so). Then there would be no discussion about INT on a barb. Rage could grow if the barb gets affected by an affliction and would get dampened when he gets healed. ;)


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#33
Braven

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It would have been cool if barbs had a unique (but simple) resource system like monks (wounds), chanters (phrases) or ciphers (focus) have. One that influences some of their most prominent abilitites, like Carnage and Frenzy and maybe also the Yell. Something named rage or so, where rage would increase Carnage and Yell area and would fuel Frenzy (influences bonus or prolongs duration or so). Then there would be no discussion about INT on a barb. Rage could grow if the barb gets affected by an affliction and would get dampened when he gets healed. ;)

 

I like that idea a lot and "Rage" is a good name for it.  Fits right into the barbarian class role of wanting to be in the thick of things.  :)



#34
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I stole it from the Hulk. ;)

#35
JerekKruger

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How about an inverse wounds system: the more damage you do, the more "rage" you build up. Perhaps there could be a compromise e.g. the more rage you have the more damage you do, so that you have to decide between spending rage and losing damage or keeping it and maintaining damage.



#36
Boeroer

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Then it's like focus. :) I mean the part where you get rage by doing damage.

You could also make it so that with missing endurance you gain rage. Like with Blooded. Doesn't have to be too granular.

But I like the idea of afflictions making the barb really angry. :)

Edited by Boeroer, 12 January 2017 - 03:29 AM.


#37
JerekKruger

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Then it's like focus. :) I mean the part where you get rage by doing damage.

 

Oh, good point, it's really too similar in the state I suggested.

 

You could also make it so that with missing endurance you gain rage. Like with Blooded. Doesn't have to be too granular.

 

 

Perhaps a little too close to Wounds though?



#38
Boeroer

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That's the problem. One reason why I suggested afflictions. But maybe that's not very playable, no idea.

Or receiving a crit would enrage you? Then the girdle of mortal protection would be the no. 1 item for barbs. ;)

Edited by Boeroer, 12 January 2017 - 05:40 AM.


#39
rheingold

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I agree with Kubya, the stats are the best I've seen. Are they perfect no.

I think the stats are almost there, but a few minor changes would be good.

 

I understand what they where trying to do with might - it's inherently your power level - whether you are a caster or melee. So for a warrior it is how much damage he/she deals. For a mage, it's the measure of their magic power (not physical), so it is also good. Problem though is if the mage then picks up a staff and starts laying about, it becomes his physical strength by default. Which means, in essence you can't make an effective role playing mage who is really weak, but magic skills are through the roof.

 

So why can't Intellect be the damage stat for casters. Might would still be important for healing and fortitude.

Resolve would function as intellect for non casters - warriors. So it would impact on AOE and duration.

Mainly because it seems silly having a barbarian with low resolve. If there is ONE stat that would make them run naked and screaming into battle it would have to be resolve.

So it might be an idea to have caster and non caster stats, and they would function slightly differently in each case.

They could still make sure that each stat is useful.

For a barb, they would now need resolve but intellect could give a better bonus or penalty to will saves so it can't be dropped to low.

 

The problem is the one size fits all. There is no true multi classing so each stat could be more specialized and effect every class differently.

Not saying it's a great idea, mind. It would complicate matters hugely. Just throwing it out there.

But yeah, as is the stats are pretty good.



#40
Boeroer

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I also like it as it is. I mean it's not a simulation of the real life, it's just a game. I can overlook a few logical flaws if the game is fun to play.





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