Jump to content

Welcome to Obsidian Forum Community
Register now to gain access to all of our features. Once registered and logged in, you will be able to create topics, post replies to existing threads, give reputation to your fellow members, get your own private messenger, post status updates, manage your profile and so much more. If you already have an account, login here - otherwise create an account for free today!
Photo

[MECHANICS] The Big "Attack Speed" Conundrum

Mechanics Attack Speed Recovery Base Values

  • Please log in to reply
154 replies to this topic

#81
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    (12) Mage

  • Members
  • 1963 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!
  • I have heard that gunners and crossbowers should go with heavy armor because the negative armor effect on the overall action cycle is negligible. But after I read your data though it seems that the armor penalty affects all aspects of the action cycle so is this true or not

 

Since I am colour blind and looking at Max's table on my crappy laptop screen it's hard for me to be sure, but I don't think the Reloading Phase Duration uses armour recovery penalties (Orange Coefficients in Max's table) in its formula. It seems to be calculated from the weapon's base reload duration, the bonus from Dexterity, and the following talents/abilities: Gunner, Sure-Handed Ila, Swift Aim and Vicious Aim, with Sure-Handed and Swift Aim not stacking.

 

Whether this means it's best to go heavy armour or not is a different question. If you are confident in your ability to avoid combat with your gunner then it's still probably best to use low recovery armour for maximum attack speed. It might not result in much of an increase in speed, but it's still something. I'd say the advice should be "armour recovery penalties are less important for gunners and crossbowmen".

 

  • Are there any bash shields in the game that are actually worth it from a DPS perspective?

 

From the point of view of auto-attack DPS I don't think so no. However both Badgradr's Barricade and the Dragon's Maw Shield can be useful in certain circumstances (tanky Barbarians are an example).

 

  • Since it's so much easier to get zero recovery with a dual-wield build even with plate than the two-handed counterpart does that mean two-handers usually lose in the DPS game?

 

If you can reach zero recovery with a two-handed weapon then it'll out DPS dual one-handers thanks to it's higher damage per hit (two-handers don't attack slower than average one-handers, and do a lot more damage than fast one-handers). On top of this, +X% damage modifiers are more powerful on two-handers than one-handers, since that +X% damage applies to the weapons base damage. As such, on classes who can reach zero recovery without dual wielding, and which have a few +X% damage modifiers, a two-hander will probably beat out dual wielding.

 

However classes which have access to lots of Full Attacks and which don't get a lot of +X% damage modifiers will do a lot better with dual wielding in general.

 

For example, Monks get fairly unlimited Full Attacks from Torment's Reach, and have no +X% damage modifiers beyond the universal ones, so are much better suited to dual wielding, whereas a Cipher has no access to Full Attacks and gets a rather nice +40% damage modifier so, if they can reach zero recovery, they might do better with a two-hander.

 

  • Do veterans of this game, generally speaking, seem to believe that getting a zero recovery build on your DPS is more important than anything else?

 

It's very important, but its rarely mutually exclusive with other means of increasing damage.

 

Generally reaching very low recovery is more a question about how heavy the armour your character wears and whether or not you mind drinking DAoM potions than sacrificing other damage bonuses. The obvious exception would be vulnerable attack, and in that case I'd tend to prefer to reach very low recovery than take vulnerable attack, though if I can have both by sacrificing armour I might.

 

  • What are the easiest builds to hit zero recovery without the use of DAoM?

 

With dual wielding? Almost any lightly armour class can reach zero recovery quite easily.

 

Without dual wielding? The obvious candidates would be Barbarians (thanks to Frenzy) and at higher levels Ciphers (thanks to Time Parasite).

 

Without using DAoM it's not possible for a lot of classes to reach zero recovery without dual wielding.


Edited by JerekKruger, 20 March 2017 - 11:11 AM.


#82
indika_tates

indika_tates

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 52 posts

I have a question about ranged attack speed & recovery. When we are talking about attack speed on two-handers or dual wield it's supposed to affect the recovery time (frames) you have after attacking. What happens then to ranged weapons that have attack speed? For example, Hold Wall which is pretty useless (I tested a normal arbalest and this one and the +20% attack speed does nothing on it) because of the reload time not being affected.

 

If a War Bow has more frames on recovery than the attack frame, why it gets more benefits from attack speed than a hunting bow? What happens with Sure-Handed-Ila and ranged weapons without reload? The reload bonuses are wasted?


Edited by indika_tates, 20 March 2017 - 11:16 AM.


#83
JerekKruger

JerekKruger

    (12) Mage

  • Members
  • 1963 posts
  • Pillars of Eternity Backer
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
  • Black Isle Bastard!

Attack speed bonuses on weapons with reload times only affect the recovery time, not the reload time. That's why Hold Wall's bonus is barely noticeable.

 

With war bows vs. hunting bows, the recovery is based on the attack animation speed, so war bows have longer recovery than hunting bows because they have long attack animations as well. Because of this, war bows do indeed get more absolute benefit from +attack speed (i.e. they'll save more frames) but the relative benefit (increase in attacks per second) should be roughly* the same.

 

As for Sure-Handed: yes, I believe you get no benefit from the reload bonus.

 

*Roughly because of the 5 frame delay, that isn't affected by anything, taking up a larger proportion of a hunting bows overall cycle than a war bow.



#84
JiggleFloyd

JiggleFloyd

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 23 posts

@MaxQuest

 

I don't see Hastening Exhortation on the list of attack speed buffs. Does that stack with anything?



#85
HorusLupercal

HorusLupercal

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 11 posts
Question to the experts on this thread, I'm thinking of going as an offensive support paladin for my potd play through. Which of these would be the most effective:

-Strange mercies DW paladin
-strange mercies 2H paladin
-strange mercies Ranged paladin
-darcozzi ACC buffer 2H offtank
-darcozzi ACC buffer ranged support/dps

#86
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1260 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

So now that you have such vast knowledge of all these mechanics can you provide us with any general takeaways or practical advice on how we can take advantage of this information? I understand that the mechanics are deep and there are plenty of nuance situations that could arise based on this knowledge, as well as certain exceptions, but generally speaking, how can we play the game better knowing this stuff?

Good question.

The most important thing is: recovery reducing effects are very weak, while there is only 1 of them.
Yet they provide a very, very sensible benefit when they start to pile on.

For example, let's take warbow: 5 frames (delay) + 45 frames (attack) + 75 frames (recovery) = 125 frames.
If you equip only gauntlets of swift action (15%): 5 + 45 + 63.75 = 113.75 (or just a x1.09 action duration reduction)
If you only used DAoM (50%): 5 + 45 + 37.5 = 87.5 (or just a x1.42 action duration reduction)
On the other hand, if you amassed enough effects, especially from the same category (since they multiply), you could have:
DAoM + Durganized Weapon + Gloves: 5 + 45 + 0 = 50 (or a x2.50 action duration reduction; or a x2.50 increase in dps)
 

Another interesting thing, is that estoc and dw stilettos are amazing for heavy armored character, early in the game. See spreadsheet.
And plate armor is especially good early as well.
 

I have heard that gunners and crossbowers should go with heavy armor because the negative armor effect on the overall action cycle is negligible. But after I read your data though it seems that the armor penalty affects all aspects of the action cycle so is this true or not

You have probably missread)
Armor penalty only affects recovery duration. Reloading is the same, be your character naked or encased in plate.

Imagine a 10 dex character:
naked arquebus: 5 + 45 + 75 + 204 = 329
naked warbow  : 5 + 45 + 75 = 125
plate arquebus: 5 + 45 + 112.5 + 204 = 366.5
plate warbow  : 5 + 45 + 112.5 = 162.5
Plate has increased action duration for warbow: 125 -> 162.5 (by 30%)
Plate has increased action duration for arquebus: 329 -> 366.5 (by 11.3%)

So generally, from auto-attack dps point of view your gunners don't lose that much from wearing heavy armor.
Still through, it depends on what niche does a character fill in your party. For example I had a fire priest with an arquebus, but still used robe, because:
- I wanted faster buffing
- I was using that moon godlike as a bait for shades. (placing her closer to frontline than other squeshies, and setting the def/dr to be the lowest in my party).
 

Are there any bash shields in the game that are actually worth it from a DPS perspective?

From pure auto-dps perspective, I think a flail + Larder Door would be better than a flail + non bashing shield, early on before you are able to enchant weapon quality and lash.
Otherwise it all comes to what proc a shield has.

Badgradr's Barricade has a natural synergy with deathblows rogue.
Dragon's Maw Shield has synergy with carnage.

25% chance to cast Taste of the Hunt on Hit or Critical Hit - would be a 25% for a 55.8 dmg dot (@18 mig, 20 int); or, assuming it stacks with itself: 14 raw dmg per hit/crit.
So consider that a bash attack for such barbarian inflicts: 1.24 * [13-18] + 14 (if taste of the hunt stacks with itself).
Although main hand will attack slower, as it will be affected by single-weapon-penalty. And dual-bittercuts with corrode enchant / spirit of decay, would still out-dps it.
 

Since it's so much easier to get zero recovery with a dual-wield build even with plate than the two-handed counterpart does that mean two-handers usually lose in the DPS game?

The plus of dual-wielding is that you can achieve zero-recovery earlier in the game. And at that moment DW is quite ahead. Although later, two-handlers with speed enchant start to catch up. Especially Blade of the Endless Paths.
 

Do veterans of this game, generally speaking, seem to believe that getting a zero recovery build on your DPS is more important than anything else?

If you have a quick-switching gunner, or a a character who after unleashing a few full attacks switches to supporting; it is not that necessary.
But for a character focused on auto-attacking, like interrupt barbarian, blasting wizard, stormcaller ranger and especially cipher, it is indeed very important. Being able to increase your dps by x2.5 is huge.
 

What are the easiest builds to hit zero recovery without the use of DAoM?

Dual-wielding Lady of the Pain due to Armored Grace + Outlander's Frenzy / Sanguine Plate proc.

Without frenzy it could be:
Dual-wielding ranger with Swift Aim.
Dual-Wielding monk with Swift Strikes.

In any case you want gauntlets of swift action and durgan enchants asap.
 

@MaxQuest

I don't see Hastening Exhortation on the list of attack speed buffs. Does that stack with anything?

Hmm. I've forgot about it.
But I am 99% sure it will have same behaviour/suppression as Vielo Vidorio.

 

I have a question about ranged attack speed & recovery. When we are talking about attack speed on two-handers or dual wield it's supposed to affect the recovery time (frames) you have after attacking. What happens then to ranged weapons that have attack speed? For example, Hold Wall which is pretty useless (I tested a normal arbalest and this one and the +20% attack speed does nothing on it) because of the reload time not being affected.

Same thing happens.
As JerekKruger already said "+x% Attack Speed" only affects recovery duration.

Look:
Hunting Bow (no speed): 5 (delay) + 30 (attack) + 50 (recovery) = 85
War Bow     (no speed): 5 (delay) + 45 (attack) + 75 (recovery) = 125
Arbalest    (no speed): 5 (delay) + 45 (attack) + 75 (recovery) + 180 (reloading) = 305

Hunting Bow (with speed): 5 (delay) + 30 (attack) + 40 (recovery) = 75  (13.3% action duration reduction)
War Bow     (with speed): 5 (delay) + 45 (attack) + 60 (recovery) = 110 (13.6% action duration reduction)
Arbalest    (with speed): 5 (delay) + 45 (attack) + 60 (recovery) + 180 (reloading) = 290 (5% action duration reduction)
 

Question to the experts on this thread, I'm thinking of going as an offensive support paladin for my potd play through. Which of these would be the most effective:

-Strange mercies DW paladin
-strange mercies 2H paladin
-strange mercies Ranged paladin
-darcozzi ACC buffer 2H offtank
-darcozzi ACC buffer ranged support/dps

A Kind Wayfarer will use FoD a lot. Since it is a primary attack, 2H is not optimal.
For a melee KW it is either DW sabres or [Strike Hard + Shatterstar / Godansthunyr] or [Rimecutter + Wē Toki].
While a ranged KW would:
- either opt for Dulcanale. If it is an aumaua, quick switching pistols could be an option.
- or stack penetration stuff (vambraces + penetrating shot + wizard's Expose Vulnerabilities) and use blunderbusses.
A melee Darcozzi imho is best used as a support or main tank. No FoD. Outwarn Buckler + Shame or Glory / Marking Cladhaliath / Strike Hard.
A ranged Darcozzi would love Pliambo per Casitàs. 2 FoD uses plus Runner's Wounding Shot. You emphasize on alpha strike and providing extra acc to the party.

Which one out of these four to use, depends on your party composition.
Note-worthy is KW synergy with a chanter:
- it is easier to finish enemies gradually reduced to low-hp by Dragon Thrashed.
- Mercy and Kindness Followed Where'er She Walked, amplifies healing done by paladin as well.
- Aefyllath + FoD + Scion of Flame.

Shortly speaking:
- Wayfarer is best suited for sturdy parties that gradually bring enemies down
- While Darcozzi is best suited for low-hp and crowd-control oriented parties, especially if you have weapons with onCrit procs.

Edited by MaxQuest, 22 March 2017 - 09:13 AM.

  • AndreaColombo, Livegood118 and indika_tates like this

#87
Kaylon

Kaylon

    (6) Magician

  • Members
  • 797 posts

I never tested how the game is rounding numbers for recovery but DAoM+Gauntlets of Swift Action+Durgan enchantment will reduce it to 1.6%. 2H recovery takes 50 frames and since 1.6% is less than a frame it might not even be displayed (depending on the rounding method). (3DEX however will put your recovery just above 1frame). 



#88
JiggleFloyd

JiggleFloyd

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 23 posts

@MaxQuest

 

Thank you for answering my questions. What is Lady of the Pain?



#89
Livegood118

Livegood118

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 370 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Hi MaxQuest,

 

Do you have any general recommendations for what kind of builds 2H is optimal for and what kind of builds Dual Wielding is optimal for?

 

My understanding of the math is that where a character has relatively few ways to reduce their recovery dual wielding is superior, whereas if a character has plenty of ways to boost their recovery through abilities then 2H is superior. Also, if the character's got access to plenty of full attacks or Heart of Fury then dual wielding will obviously be better (at least for the full attacks).

 

At the end of the day in hard fights any character can drink a Deleterious Alacrity of Motion Potion, so maybe 2H is better overall in the end against enemies that really matter? 

 

2H's higher base also helps defeat high DR foes (scales better than vulnerable attack).

 

Maybe dual wield is superior for the first half of the game then 2H is superior for the second half?

 

Interested to hear your thoughts on this issue.

 

Edit: total +% damage bonus available is obviously a factor as well, as this will benefit 2H more than DW


Edited by Livegood118, 22 March 2017 - 09:58 AM.


#90
indika_tates

indika_tates

    (2) Evoker

  • Members
  • 52 posts

@MaxQuest

 

Thank you for answering my questions. What is Lady of the Pain?

 

http://forums.obsidi...ed-dps-fighter/


  • AndreaColombo likes this

#91
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1260 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Do you have any general recommendations for what kind of builds 2H is optimal for and what kind of builds Dual Wielding is optimal for?

General - yes. From dps point of view:

- Dual-wielding is favoured when your character has many full-attack abilities: Knockdown, FoD, Rogue Strikes, Barbaric Blow, HoF.
Plus DW can achieve zero-recovery earlier.
Although Barbarian (with maxed Mig/Int) can also make great use of Tidefall, due to wounding DoT.

- 2H (with speed) is favored for late game dps on characters who use auto or primary attacks. Notably cipher can respec in the late game from DW to a 2H build. Plus he has bonus 0.4 dmg coefficient which scales nicely with extra base damage.

- While 2H weapons (without speed) are mostly used for utility and effects they provide (Redeemer, Abydon's Hammer, Tall Grass, etc)

 

Edit: total +% damage bonus available is obviously a factor as well, as this will benefit 2H more than DW

Yeap.
 

At the end of the day in hard fights any character can drink a Deleterious Alacrity of Motion Potion, so maybe 2H is better overall in the end against enemies that really matter?

This is how 2H vs DW compare once you have achieved zero recovery: spreadsheet :)
Bittercut gets outclassed against even DR, although it still keeps the benefit of dual damaging type.

Edited by MaxQuest, 22 March 2017 - 11:46 AM.

  • AndreaColombo likes this

#92
Livegood118

Livegood118

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 370 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

 

At the end of the day in hard fights any character can drink a Deleterious Alacrity of Motion Potion, so maybe 2H is better overall in the end against enemies that really matter?

This is how 2H vs DW compare once you have achieved zero recovery: spreadsheet :)
Bittercut gets outclassed against even DR, although it still keeps the benefit of dual damaging type.

 

 

Very interesting – thanks!

 

Any thoughts on Tidefall vs The Blade of the Endless Paths? Notwithstanding Tidefall doesn't have a speed enchant, I would have figured that it still came out on top.



#93
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1260 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
Botep clearly wins over Tidefall when used by a cipher. Because wounding does not generate focus. So it is [5DR pen + speed] vs [dual damaging type].

For a character of other class, Tidefall might get an upper hand, especially when used vs high DR enemies.

The question is - who that would be. We need a martial (i.e. who deals most of his damage via phys attacks) char who has high Might, preferably below-average Intellect, who has primary and not full attacks and also has some recovery reducing talents.

If knockdown and charge were primary attacks, I'd say it's great for fighter.
If swift aim wasn't suppressed, it would be literally perfect for a melee ranger.
Remains barbarian, who dual-wields while performing Barbaric Blow and HoF, and once Bloodlust kicks-in can switch to Tidefall if there are any high-DR enemies remaining.

Ofc priest of Berath with Tidefall + Minor Avatar can also sound nice, since he can buff his might to the roof. But, if a priest uses Minor Avatar it is probably because it's hammer casting time. So he will be busy tossing those buffs and Shinning Beacons, instead of swinging the weapon.

Edited by MaxQuest, 23 March 2017 - 04:18 AM.

  • Livegood118 likes this

#94
Livegood118

Livegood118

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 370 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Thanks again for the insight wise PoE sage.



#95
HorusLupercal

HorusLupercal

    (1) Prestidigitator

  • Members
  • 11 posts

So now that you have such vast knowledge of all these mechanics can you provide us with any general takeaways or practical advice on how we can take advantage of this information? I understand that the mechanics are deep and there are plenty of nuance situations that could arise based on this knowledge, as well as certain exceptions, but generally speaking, how can we play the game better knowing this stuff?

Good question.

The most important thing is: recovery reducing effects are very weak, while there is only 1 of them.
Yet they provide a very, very sensible benefit when they start to pile on.

For example, let's take warbow: 5 frames (delay) + 45 frames (attack) + 75 frames (recovery) = 125 frames.
If you equip only gauntlets of swift action (15%): 5 + 45 + 63.75 = 113.75 (or just a x1.09 action duration reduction)
If you only used DAoM (50%): 5 + 45 + 37.5 = 87.5 (or just a x1.42 action duration reduction)
On the other hand, if you amassed enough effects, especially from the same category (since they multiply), you could have:
DAoM + Durganized Weapon + Gloves: 5 + 45 + 0 = 50 (or a x2.50 action duration reduction; or a x2.50 increase in dps)


Another interesting thing, is that estoc and dw stilettos are amazing for heavy armored character, early in the game. See spreadsheet.
And plate armor is especially good early as well.

I have heard that gunners and crossbowers should go with heavy armor because the negative armor effect on the overall action cycle is negligible. But after I read your data though it seems that the armor penalty affects all aspects of the action cycle so is this true or not

You have probably missread)
Armor penalty only affects recovery duration. Reloading is the same, be your character naked or encased in plate.

Imagine a 10 dex character:
naked arquebus: 5 + 45 + 75 + 204 = 329
naked warbow  : 5 + 45 + 75 = 125
plate arquebus: 5 + 45 + 112.5 + 204 = 366.5
plate warbow  : 5 + 45 + 112.5 = 162.5
Plate has increased action duration for warbow: 125 -> 162.5 (by 30%)
Plate has increased action duration for arquebus: 329 -> 366.5 (by 11.3%)

So generally, from auto-attack dps point of view your gunners don't lose that much from wearing heavy armor.
Still through, it depends on what niche does a character fill in your party. For example I had a fire priest with an arquebus, but still used robe, because:
- I wanted faster buffing
- I was using that moon godlike as a bait for shades. (placing her closer to frontline than other squeshies, and setting the def/dr to be the lowest in my party).

Are there any bash shields in the game that are actually worth it from a DPS perspective?

From pure auto-dps perspective, I think a flail + Larder Door would be better than a flail + non bashing shield, early on before you are able to enchant weapon quality and lash.
Otherwise it all comes to what proc a shield has.

Badgradr's Barricade has a natural synergy with deathblows rogue.
Dragon's Maw Shield has synergy with carnage.

25% chance to cast Taste of the Hunt on Hit or Critical Hit - would be a 25% for a 55.8 dmg dot (@18 mig, 20 int); or, assuming it stacks with itself: 14 raw dmg per hit/crit.
So consider that a bash attack for such barbarian inflicts: 1.24 * [13-18] + 14 (if taste of the hunt stacks with itself).
Although main hand will attack slower, as it will be affected by single-weapon-penalty. And dual-bittercuts with corrode enchant / spirit of decay, would still out-dps it.

Since it's so much easier to get zero recovery with a dual-wield build even with plate than the two-handed counterpart does that mean two-handers usually lose in the DPS game?

The plus of dual-wielding is that you can achieve zero-recovery earlier in the game. And at that moment DW is quite ahead. Although later, two-handlers with speed enchant start to catch up. Especially Blade of the Endless Paths.

Do veterans of this game, generally speaking, seem to believe that getting a zero recovery build on your DPS is more important than anything else?

If you have a quick-switching gunner, or a a character who after unleashing a few full attacks switches to supporting; it is not that necessary.
But for a character focused on auto-attacking, like interrupt barbarian, blasting wizard, stormcaller ranger and especially cipher, it is indeed very important. Being able to increase your dps by x2.5 is huge.

What are the easiest builds to hit zero recovery without the use of DAoM?

Dual-wielding Lady of the Pain due to Armored Grace + Outlander's Frenzy / Sanguine Plate proc.

Without frenzy it could be:
Dual-wielding ranger with Swift Aim.
Dual-Wielding monk with Swift Strikes.

In any case you want gauntlets of swift action and durgan enchants asap.

@MaxQuest

I don't see Hastening Exhortation on the list of attack speed buffs. Does that stack with anything?

Hmm. I've forgot about it.
But I am 99% sure it will have same behaviour/suppression as Vielo Vidorio.

 

I have a question about ranged attack speed & recovery. When we are talking about attack speed on two-handers or dual wield it's supposed to affect the recovery time (frames) you have after attacking. What happens then to ranged weapons that have attack speed? For example, Hold Wall which is pretty useless (I tested a normal arbalest and this one and the +20% attack speed does nothing on it) because of the reload time not being affected.

Same thing happens.
As JerekKruger already said "+x% Attack Speed" only affects recovery duration.

Look:
Hunting Bow (no speed): 5 (delay) + 30 (attack) + 50 (recovery) = 85
War Bow     (no speed): 5 (delay) + 45 (attack) + 75 (recovery) = 125
Arbalest    (no speed): 5 (delay) + 45 (attack) + 75 (recovery) + 180 (reloading) = 305

Hunting Bow (with speed): 5 (delay) + 30 (attack) + 40 (recovery) = 75  (13.3% action duration reduction)
War Bow     (with speed): 5 (delay) + 45 (attack) + 60 (recovery) = 110 (13.6% action duration reduction)
Arbalest    (with speed): 5 (delay) + 45 (attack) + 60 (recovery) + 180 (reloading) = 290 (5% action duration reduction)
 

Question to the experts on this thread, I'm thinking of going as an offensive support paladin for my potd play through. Which of these would be the most effective:

-Strange mercies DW paladin
-strange mercies 2H paladin
-strange mercies Ranged paladin
-darcozzi ACC buffer 2H offtank
-darcozzi ACC buffer ranged support/dps

A Kind Wayfarer will use FoD a lot. Since it is a primary attack, 2H is not optimal.
For a melee KW it is either DW sabres or [Strike Hard + Shatterstar / Godansthunyr] or [Rimecutter + Wē Toki].
While a ranged KW would:
- either opt for Dulcanale. If it is an aumaua, quick switching pistols could be an option.
- or stack penetration stuff (vambraces + penetrating shot + wizard's Expose Vulnerabilities) and use blunderbusses.
A melee Darcozzi imho is best used as a support or main tank. No FoD. Outwarn Buckler + Shame or Glory / Marking Cladhaliath / Strike Hard.
A ranged Darcozzi would love Pliambo per Casitàs. 2 FoD uses plus Runner's Wounding Shot. You emphasize on alpha strike and providing extra acc to the party.

Which one out of these four to use, depends on your party composition.
Note-worthy is KW synergy with a chanter:
- it is easier to finish enemies gradually reduced to low-hp by Dragon Thrashed.
- Mercy and Kindness Followed Where'er She Walked, amplifies healing done by paladin as well.
- Aefyllath + FoD + Scion of Flame.

Shortly speaking:
- Wayfarer is best suited for sturdy parties that gradually bring enemies down
- While Darcozzi is best suited for low-hp and crowd-control oriented parties, especially if you have weapons with onCrit procs.

Thank you so much wise one! I've decided on making a Darcozzi paladin version of Boeroer's Counselor Ploo build. The only question now is whether or not it would be beneficial to be a wood elf for the accuracy buff or the island Aumaua for an extra blunderbuss....but being limited to two FoDs.

#96
hilfazer

hilfazer

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 326 posts

I have a question about ranged attack speed & recovery. When we are talking about attack speed on two-handers or dual wield it's supposed to affect the recovery time (frames) you have after attacking. What happens then to ranged weapons that have attack speed? For example, Hold Wall which is pretty useless (I tested a normal arbalest and this one and the +20% attack speed does nothing on it) because of the reload time not being affected.

Same thing happens.
As JerekKruger already said "+x% Attack Speed" only affects recovery duration.

So it's still in the game.
Either we don't complain nearly enough or devs ignore their boards too much.

Also, i don't see Blizzard being mention. Sure it's effect is minimal now (nerfed from 80% to 20%) but it's still not zero. Unless it got nerfed even harder but ... i refuse to believe it.

BTW great work, MaxQuest.

#97
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1260 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer
^ Thanks)

Regarding tooltips: there was an opinion that using the term recovery might be confusing. Heh, I've seen on reddit, some even assume that it is the speed of endurance regeneration post-combat. But yeah, tooltips should reflect the exact state of things. And if they are confusing - either change the wording, or even the names of action phases.

Regarding Blizzard (druid spell): it belongs to AttackSpeedMult category, and provides 20% malus. Added it to the list.
 

Thank you so much wise one! I've decided on making a Darcozzi paladin version of Boeroer's Counselor Ploo build. The only question now is whether or not it would be beneficial to be a wood elf for the accuracy buff or the island Aumaua for an extra blunderbuss....but being limited to two FoDs.

That's quite a quote :)

As for race for ploi paladin, I think it depends on your party composition and personal preference.
If your counselor is the only charmer in party, it will be better to for wood elf, as it will help you land some critical charms during boss fights.
If not, plus you are ok with firearms juggling/micromanagement go for aumaua.

 

@MaxQuest

I don't see Hastening Exhortation on the list of attack speed buffs. Does that stack with anything?

Hmm. I've forgot about it.
But I am 99% sure it will have same behaviour/suppression as Vielo Vidorio.

Just checked it. It behaves as expected.
It goes into AttackSpeedMult category and is being suppressed by other similar effects.

#98
hilfazer

hilfazer

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 326 posts
Are You sure Blizzard stacks with Cautious Attack? It's a spell and a modal.
Swift Aim is a modal and does not stack with spells/other 'active' sources.


And there's a typo "penetrating ahot".

#99
Livegood118

Livegood118

    (4) Theurgist

  • Members
  • 370 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Max, I've been trying to think about the value of Dexterity after recovery is removed and was wondering if you could provide some insight (It's been 8-9 years since I've been in a maths classroom ...).

 

Is it accurate to say that Dexterity isn't all that valuable after recovery has been removed? 

 

There are two ways of looking at this as far as I can see:

 

– The "total number of frames" approach

– The "relative" benefit approach

 

Let's say a character's full attack cycle is 65 frames and they've got a neutral recovery mod (0.00). This means with a Dexterity of 20 the total amount of frames reduced is 30/1.3 + 30/1.3/1.2 = 42. Roughly speaking, this means that for every three times the 20 dex char attacks a 10 Dex character will only attack two times. The total amount of frames reduced is 18 (after recovery mod is factored in).

 

Now, if we take an example where recovery has been reduced to 0, we would have a 35 frame attack cycle. Applying 20 Dex to the 30 frames of this which constitute the "attack" portion of the cycle means we get 30/1.3 = 23 frames, so total attack time is 28 frames.

 

In the first example with neutral recovery the total number of reduced frames is 18, in the second example the total number of reduced frames is only 7.

 

However is looking at the total number of reduced frames a misleading way of working out the value of Dex?

 

If characters' attack cycle frames were as follows:

 

(A) 60 frames

(B) 30 frames

© 15 frames

(D) 7.5 frames

 

– (B) attacks 2x faster than (A) 

– © attacks 2x faster than (B), 4x faster than (A)

– (D) attacks 2x faster than ©, 4x faster than (B), and 8x faster than (A)

 

So really, the closer your total number of attack cycle frames approach the absolute minimum then can reach, the more value each reduced frame becomes. Is it correct to say your damage output exponentially increases the smaller the total number of frames gets? e.g. a 2 frame difference if your total attack cycle only constituted four frames is equivalent to a 30 frames reduction if your total attack cycle constituted 60 frames.

 

Therefore, it seems wrong to say that Dexterity is not valuable on a character with 0 recovery - in fact it's as valuable if not more valuable than a character with a large number of total frames.

 

Interested to hear what you think. Maybe I got something wrong?

 

edit: fixed some math (factored in recovery mod)


Edited by Livegood118, 04 April 2017 - 06:07 AM.


#100
MaxQuest

MaxQuest

    (9) Sorcerer

  • Members
  • 1260 posts
  • Deadfire Backer
  • Fig Backer

Are You sure Blizzard stacks with Cautious Attack?

Unfortunately I had no time yet, to check this interaction. Blame the long loading time :)
I suppose speed malus of one of them will get suppressed through.
 

Is it accurate to say that Dexterity isn't all that valuable after recovery has been removed?

I suppose it still is. But sure, fast weapons benefit less from it (because of the delay). And this post shows by how less.

So if your MIG vs DEX sweet spot was at let's say 15x18; at zero recovery it could become:
- 18x15 for Dual-Daggers
- 17x16 for Blade of the Endless Paths
- 16x17 for Arquebus
- 19x14 for Quick-Switching Firearms
just for example.
 

Let's say a character's full attack cycle is 65 frames and they've got a neutral recovery mod (0.00). This means with a Dexterity of 20 the total amount of frames reduced is 30/1.3 + 30/1.3/1.2 = 42. Roughly speaking, this means that for every three times the 20 dex char attacks a 10 Dex character will only attack two times. The total amount of frames reduced is 18 (after recovery mod is factored in).

Hmm, an interesting way to compute.
Let's take the proposed action cycle of 65 frames (assuming that we attack with single weapon it is): 5 delay + 22.5 attack + 37.5 recovery = 65
At 20 DEX that would become: 5 delay + 17.3 attack + 28.8 recovery = 51.1
So yes, the difference is 18 (17.9); but the important part is that your dps increases by x1.27 (65/51.1).
 

Is it correct to say your damage output exponentially increases the smaller the total number of frames gets? e.g. a 2 frame difference if your total attack cycle only constituted four frames is equivalent to a 30 frames reduction if your total attack cycle constituted 60 frames.

Yes
 

However is looking at the total number of reduced frames a misleading way of working out the value of Dex?

Also yes.

In order to maximize your dps you want to get the maximum of the following product: [average_damage_per_hit] x [how_fast_you_can_hit],
where [how_fast_you_can_hit] is [1 / total_action_duration].

Technically you can compute what gives your more return on investment of one attribute point: +1 DEX vs +1 MIG vs +1 PER. And repeat this until you are out of points to spare.

 
Regarding speed calculator: I won't have time to work upon it till weekend likely, so I've finished the current stage for it to be usable already. 
There are some UX improvements to be made, plus it wouldn't hurt to recheck if there is also delay before offhand attack, but that will come later.
It's a beta through, so feel free to post your suggestions, or bugs found (if any) here.

 

Attack Speed Calculator

version 1.0 (Beta, Early Access)


Edited by MaxQuest, 04 April 2017 - 09:40 AM.

  • AndreaColombo, Livegood118 and Dr <3 like this





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Mechanics, Attack Speed, Recovery, Base Values

1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users