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[MECHANICS] The Big "Attack Speed" Conundrum

Mechanics Attack Speed Recovery Base Values

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#21
AndreaColombo

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Speed.

 

Last time I checked, it was impossible to calculate any % of a word. Fractions tend to only work with numbers.


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#22
Boeroer

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That's not true. Actually, 20% of "Speed" is exactly "S". ;)
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#23
Elric Galad

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Or e, based on probability.
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#24
rheingold

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The system is actually pretty good, yeah obviously it needs a bit of refinement for POE 2, but absolutely no wholesale changes. Best to just tweak slightly otherwise you end up in the beginning again, just with a new system that no one understands.
I'd also add that really it's only a tiny handful of rather dedicated people who are really complaining....
For the majority this really doesn't seem to be an issue. You can never design a game for the hardcore theory crafters, if you did you'd go broke.
Not to say that I don't find this interesting and think there is room for improvement.... It's just that this being the Internet there is some over exaggeration as to how big the problem is.

#25
MaxQuest

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The system is actually pretty good, yeah obviously it needs a bit of refinement for POE 2, but absolutely no wholesale changes. Best to just tweak slightly otherwise you end up in the beginning again, just with a new system that no one understands.

Agreed. The system is ok, but the numbers could be tweaked, and some formulas adjusted for the sake of consistency.

For example, imagine if atomic action would consist of [attack_animation + recovery_phase].
The duration of this action would be:
1.5s for fast melee
2.0s for average melee
2.5s for slow melee weapons

Now, all 'attack speed' and 'recovery penalties' being converted to "+/- x% action speed".
Thus for instance speed enchant, would reduce the action speed proportionally to it's tooltip. E.g. 1.5s => 1.5/1.2 = 1.25s.

And the game itself then would calculate what the attack and recovery durations should be, in order to achieve that 1.25s as their sum. Be it both being reduced proportionally; or only recovery, and only when it gets down to zero, attack duration starting being reduced as well; it doesn't matter.

With the current system, it is 1.666s => 0.666 + 1.111 * 0.8 = 1.555s. I.e. the benefit is twice less than expected. But it rises way to fast once you stack more of speed stuff. Hence it's disproportional.
 

For the majority this really doesn't seem to be an issue.

It's more of an issue for the developers themselves. Non-consistency always causes trouble when devs come back to adjust the system. Especially it it was written by one programmer and than maintained by the other; which happens when the driving force is transferred to another project.

Edited by MaxQuest, 11 May 2016 - 01:49 AM.

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#26
Kalina

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How much +speed I need in 3.2 to reach 0 recovery in plate? Durgan sabres, durgan armor, talent, frezy and potion will be enough ?

#27
MaxQuest

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^ The potion will suppress frenzy.
 
Dw durgan sabres + talent that's: (1.5 - 1) + (1.15 - 1) + (1.2 - 1) = 0.85
Dw durgan sabres + talent + frenzy: (1.5 - 1) + (1.15*1.33 - 1) + (1.2 - 1) = 1.23
Dw durgan sabres + talent + potion: (1.5 - 1) + (1.15*1.5 - 1) + (1.2 - 1) = 1.42
 
So: the setup with potion is enough to compensate for the -0.35 recovery penalty from armor.
The setup with frenzy would be enough too, if you will add gloves of swift action.

Edited by MaxQuest, 17 May 2016 - 01:46 AM.


#28
Stasis_Sword

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I tried to use one of the formulas in the thread to calculate attacks speed for a two hander but it didn't quite work.

 

For a durganized tidefall with gloves of swift action and potion I thought it would be:

(1.5-1) + (1.15 * 1.15 * 1.5) = 1.48

 

Also is there anything else a non dual wielding character can do to speed up their attack?



#29
dainbramage

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I tried to use one of the formulas in the thread to calculate attacks speed for a two hander but it didn't quite work.

 

For a durganized tidefall with gloves of swift action and potion I thought it would be:

(1.5-1) + (1.15 * 1.15 * 1.5) = 1.48

 

Also is there anything else a non dual wielding character can do to speed up their attack?

 

Where is the first 1.5-1 coming from?

 

I think the 3 you listed are your only options though. Well there are other abilities/talents/consumables but they'll all be suppressed by DAoM.

 

You can get a (1.15*1.15*1.5 - 1) = 98% reduction from durgan weapon, gloves of swift action and a DAoM potion. In no armour (or durganized robes) that's practically 0 recovery. Or a fighter can wear durganized scale with almost no recovery.


Edited by dainbramage, 16 May 2016 - 04:13 PM.

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#30
Boeroer

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The first 1.5 would be dual wielding - which is kind of impossible with a two handed weapon. ;)



#31
Stasis_Sword

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The first 1.5 would be dual wielding - which is kind of impossible with a two handed weapon. ;)

 

In my defense I said I was having trouble trying to work through MaxQuest's formula.

 

So to summarize with a two handed weapon zero recovery is only really possible in clothes (which matches up with my quick gameplay test), unless the weapon has an inherent attack speed bonus.



#32
Boeroer

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In my defense I said I was having trouble trying to work through MaxQuest's formula.

:)

Hm... could be possible with a barb who has Bloodlust I guess..?  



#33
MaxQuest

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Where is the first 1.5-1 coming from?

It came from dual-wielding. Boeroer was absolutely right about it.
 

In my defense I said I was having trouble trying to work through MaxQuest's formula.

Yeah, it can be quite confusing.
Until I have finished the [recovery] section, you can refer to this post.

And remember the following rule of thumb:
- all effects that affect recovery can be classified in several categories.
- effects from the same category that contains 'Multiplier' in it's inner name stack multiplicativery. (e.g. AttackSpeedMultiplier)
- effects from the same category that doesn't contains 'Multiplier' in it's inner name stack additively. (e.g. ArmorSpeedFactor)
- after that, category coefficients are added one by one to the final coefficient in the += (coef - 1) manner
- if final_coef value is greater than 1, you will have zero recovery.
 

So to summarize with a two handed weapon zero recovery is only really possible in clothes (which matches up with my quick gameplay test), unless the weapon has an inherent attack speed bonus.

With a durganized melee two-handed weapon, potion and gloves of swift action, the AttackSpeedMultiplier is 1.98. So zero-recovery is possible with:
- unenchanted clothing (1.98 - 1 = 0.98) (almost 1, you will have 1 maximum 2 frames of recovery)
- durganized robe (0.98 - (0.15 - 0.15) = 0.98) (same)
- durganized scale armor (with armored grace) (0.98 -  (0.35 - 0.2 - 0.15))
- durganized scale armor (with bloodlust; if it doesn't get suppressed, and goes into MeleeAttackSpeedMultiplier category)
- durganized plate armor (with bloodlust; if it doesn't get suppressed, and goes into AttackSpeedMultiplier category)

With a durganized melee two-handed weapon, with speed enchant, potion and gloves of swift action, the AttackSpeedMultiplier is 2.38. So zero-recovery is possible with:
- unenchanted scale armor (1.38 - 0.35 >= 1)
- durganized plate armor (1.38 - (0.5 - 0.15) >= 1)

For ranged weapons it would be the same. But there is also Sure-Handed chant that sets RateOfFireMultipler to 1.2. So:

With a durganized ranged two-handed weapon, chant, potion and gloves of swift action, the AttackSpeedMultiplier is 1.98. So zero-recovery is possible with:
- durganized scale armor (0.98 + 0.2 + (0.35 - 0.15) = 0.98) (almost zero recovery)
- durganized plate armor (with armored grace) (0.98 + 0.2 + (0.5 - 0.2 - 0.15) = 1.03 >= 1)

With a durganized ranged two-handed weapon, chant, speed enchant, potion and gloves of swift action, the AttackSpeedMultiplier is 2.38. So zero-recovery is possible with:
- durganized plate armor (1.38 + 0.2 + (0.5 - 0.15) = 1.23 >= 1)

Edited by MaxQuest, 17 May 2016 - 07:13 AM.

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#34
Stasis_Sword

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MaxQuest thanks for that very informative post.



#35
Boeroer

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Last time I used it Bloodlust was not suppressed by Frenzy. So I guess it stacks. Another thing is Bloodthirst. THis gives you 0 recovery after each kill. It's not really 0 recovery all the time - but with Firebrand and Scion of Flame you will get close. ;)



#36
JiggleFloyd

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@MaxQuest This post is awesome. I haven't even read through the entire original post yet but I know this is what I have been looking for. You have a talent in explaining complicated things in an organized manner. Most of the crap I found out there was just a hodge podge of explanations within walls of text and bad examples. I want to make my own DPS calculator based on this knowledge. If you know of a legit one out there that actually has it right, let me know!


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#37
MaxQuest

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Thanks)

As for DPS calculator I am not aware of any with up-to-date data. Although you might want to take a look at this one and inspire in a way.

#38
MaxQuest

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I've been receiving few requests about full list of speed categories (since my list was incomplete), plus if it is possible to explain recovery duration calculation formula in a simpler way. So:

Updated tables (17th January 2017):
Lxty1Sk.png
Btw, big thanks to Loren Tyr for this post.

Now, the formulas: (tried to simplify as much as I could ^^)
wtC6hm1.png
Note: the referenced image with weapon attack and reload durations, is this one: http://i.imgur.com/QqMIkII.png


Note to self: check dual-wielding.

Edited by MaxQuest, 17 January 2017 - 03:57 AM.

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#39
Elric Galad

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Great !

Isn't penetrating shot 0.80 instead of 1.20 ?
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#40
Elric Galad

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Isn't dual wielding recovery recently changed ?

I thought it was a big 0.5 added to speed coeff ?
(or if you prefer, a separate coef of blue category valued to 1.5)

If changed, it means that reached 0 recovery is almost as complicated with dual wielding (apart for style talent bonus) as with single weapons...





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