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bad design decisions

Ui Backer beta poe sound

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#41
Gorbag

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@Prime Junta: Well it's easy to forget other points of view when your mind is set on something. Just as I forgot to think about how the inability to flee from combat affects those who play Trial of Iron/Ironman regularly. That's what discussions are for, not only ganging up against stuff.


Edited by Gorbag, 19 January 2015 - 05:54 AM.

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#42
Nonek

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Ctn2003:

1. No ambient or movie sound sliders.

2. Unable to drop items upon the ground.

Archangel979:

3. Fleeing combat impossible.

4. Infinite stash available everywhere, and yet the character models do not have a backpack or even a bag in which to hold anything.

5. Unable to change weapons during combat.

6. Lack of ammunition, and thus unique and enchanted examples.

7. Position of combat log may be disliked.

8. Camera angle may be disliked.

9. No walking animation, only able to run.

10. Elder name does not necessarily denote potency.

Luckmann:

11. Combat only abilities, preventing potent ambushing and initiation of combat.

12. No individual stealth options, stealth automatically dismissed at the initiation of combat.

Archangel979:

13. Turning off UI helpers, you have no idea what your characters are doing.

 

Edit: Thought it might be helpful to gather up the major points in a full list, perhaps someone could do so on every second page or so when new points are added?


Edited by Nonek, 19 January 2015 - 06:15 AM.

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#43
Nonek

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Points 1 and 2 seem to be things that simply should be included.

3 Seems worrisome, this should be a legitimate tactic.

4 I've disliked this from the beginning, and said so repeatedly.

5 Seems counter intuitive to the games design principle, were we not supposed to change weapons during combat to take advantage of different weaknesses?

6 A small thing but a pity not to take advantage of it.

7 and 8 Seem purely down to personal preference.

9 Walking definitely should be included in the game in my opinion.

10 Personal preference again, language is malleable.

11 Very concerned about this, how do Wizards research spells and work in their laboratories, are they constantly attacked during research?

12 Seems to devalue scouts and a legitimate gameplay option.

13 I'm afraid I have no experience of this in effect.

 

Edit: Obviously there is a limit to how much can be achieved for such a small budget, perhaps the developers might think of implementing a few of these changes in patches or the expansion, after sales have begun?


Edited by Nonek, 19 January 2015 - 06:20 AM.

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#44
PrimeJunta

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Actually there is an 'objective' aspect to 8 at least: the lower camera angle makes it harder to see what's going on in combat if there's a cluster of toons swinging at each other. 

 

As to 12, I also think individual stealth would be nice, but in practice it's not nearly as bad as some people here make it out to be. The only thing you can't do is position a rogue in the back, charge the lines at the front, and backstab at a suitable moment. You can still position your rogues with stealth and open with a backstab, you can scout ahead with your stealthier party members, and the rest of it.

 

Also rogues can take the Shadowing Beyond ability which gives them temporary invisibility. It's 1/encounter only regrettably but it does make a lot of stealth tactics feasible again.

 

13 is entirely true, which is why I never switch them off. With no alternative way to get at the info, I really don't see why they made them optional to start with. They're quite crucial.



#45
Gfted1

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Huh, I hadn't heard about the "cant drop stuff". Whats up with that? So you can only empty your bags by selling stuff? At the end of the day I guess its meaningless since we have unlimited carry capacity but still a bit kooky, imo.

 

My vote for bad design decision; no Healing capabilities.


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#46
wanderon

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Haha, I think you'd  have to have a serious masochistic streak to go with Trial of Iron on a first playthrough. I think it's fairly crucial even for later playthroughs. Even really good players sometimes screw up, and if every fight is to the death it makes things seriously more difficult.

 

ahhh but the adrenaline rush each battle then provides when it's win or start over is to die for (ooops game over :skull:  )...

 

Dying and then starting over however need not be considered a bad thing since for me at least it feeds yet another addiction - restartitius!!!!  :yes:

 

so it's win/win or lose/win - hey I think we have a winner! 

 

(All that said I probably won't start right off with Trial of Iron - maybe I'll roll to see... :grin: )



#47
Osvir

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Ctn2003:

1. No ambient or movie sound sliders.

2. Unable to drop items upon the ground.

Archangel979:

3. Fleeing combat impossible.

4. Infinite stash available everywhere, and yet the character models do not have a backpack or even a bag in which to hold anything.

5. Unable to change weapons during combat.

6. Lack of ammunition, and thus unique and enchanted examples.

7. Position of combat log may be disliked.

8. Camera angle may be disliked.

9. No walking animation, only able to run.

10. Elder name does not necessarily denote potency.

Luckmann:

11. Combat only abilities, preventing potent ambushing and initiation of combat.

12. No individual stealth options, stealth automatically dismissed at the initiation of combat.

Archangel979:

13. Turning off UI helpers, you have no idea what your characters are doing.

 

Edit: Thought it might be helpful to gather up the major points in a full list, perhaps someone could do so on every second page or so when new points are added?

1. *shrug* but would've been nice.
2. *shrug* I don't understand why...? Though hm... omg! O.O the Quest possibilities! "You have received a note: 'Drop the object you found at location X, or you will face the consequences". Expansive? Or, maybe not, because a quest like this could be made by "Drop in Container".
3. Not impossible. Different than "mouse-click" away (like in the IE games). PoE uses more of a "Act then Flee" (Act being "Stun", "Knockdown", "Hobbled" or causing effects to the target. Kind of Pokemon/Pokeball styled gameplay, you can't catch a Pokemon with full health with a standard/typical Pokeball. Status Effect or Low Health -> Then Catch. In PoE: Status Effect or Ability -> Then Flee)
4. I'll say it again, a limited Stash option would be interesting. Or outright an option for "Turn Off Stash Entirely".

5. Isn't this a bug or... Obsidian wasn't able to fix it? (Why would we even have Weapon Sets if we can't switch in combat? Though, I understand if they choose not to fix it because... changing weapons in Combat could or should cause an attack of opportunity or better rolls for the enemy. It might cause more problems. A simple solution is to simply "Not allow" changing of weapons in combat)
6. Could a Ranged weapon have "Bullet" enchantments (crafting, essentially) or have a Secondary Ammonution Item that you can equip in the "Off-Hand" slot? (In essence: If you have a Bow, both hands are occupied, but you could find unique arrows or arrow enchantments that can only be equipped in the Off-Hand slot if a Bow is equipped. For a one-handed Gun you'd sacrifice Dual-Wielding Gun Slinging for the Off-Hand ammo type)
7. The Draggable UI Mod seems awesome, and it does everything anyone who wants the Combat log elsewhere. I don't see a problem. Though, I think it'd be better for Pillars of Eternity if Obsidian and Bester worked together with this, and integrated the "Draggable UI" into the Vanilla game (or through an Official Patch).
8. ???

9. Scout Mode = Dungeon Crawling/Readied Stance/Dungeon Walking. Though, I would've kind of wanted to have an Out of Combat Explorative walking animation rather than the running one but oh well. It is fun to explore and move around in Pillars of Eternity, walking or no walking. I still think it is a bit of a bummer.
10. *shrug*
11. Isn't this all about scouting, preparing and positioning? I can position my dudes in a way further away, and then my, say, Rogue can sneak up to enemies, run away as they see him/her, and then I have my party waiting around a corner.
12. Because "Scout Mode" isn't necessarily "Stealth Mode". Another name for this Mode could give more clarity. Or rather, I view "Scout Mode" in several ways... one way is that you can activate it, and walk with one character and it'll be (in essence) what the IE stealth mode is. Or, you can "scout" with the entire party in the mode (as seen from Obsidian's stream, Josh is dungeon crawling with the Mode a lot with the entire party).
13. "Turning Off All UI Helpers" is something you do after you've learned the system more and understand it better.


Edited by Osvir, 19 January 2015 - 07:44 AM.


#48
PrimeJunta

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@Osvir 3. is actually impossible. There is no way to exit the map if you are "in combat." Stun, knockdown, hobble etc. do not end the combat state even if you manage to break engagement.

 

4. A limited stash would be worse. It means that for a long time you're happily playing with no inventory Tetris, then boom, you're faced with a marathon of it at once. Cf. Fallout 2's car trunk.

 

5. You can change weapons in combat, but only between your two (or three) weapon sets.

 

6. I don't think there are one-handed guns anymore. Sadly pirate pistols are a thing of the past. And yes, special ammo would need a UI feature to use it.

 

13. There aren't any AI UI helpers to speak of (and a good thing too). Characters just use their basic attack if not instructed to do otherwise.


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#49
Osvir

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@Osvir 3. is actually impossible. There is no way to exit the map if you are "in combat." Stun, knockdown, hobble etc. do not end the combat state even if you manage to break engagement.

 

4. A limited stash would be worse. It means that for a long time you're happily playing with no inventory Tetris, then boom, you're faced with a marathon of it at once. Cf. Fallout 2's car trunk.

 

5. You can change weapons in combat, but only between your two (or three) weapon sets.

 

6. I don't think there are one-handed guns anymore. Sadly pirate pistols are a thing of the past. And yes, special ammo would need a UI feature to use it.

 

13. There aren't any AI UI helpers to speak of (and a good thing too). Characters just use their basic attack if not instructed to do otherwise.

3. Oh, you're talking about it in that way. That would be pretty cool... knockback the enemy or something, run away, hide, have them look for you. What I meant is that it's not impossible to kick some ass and then retreat back or run back a bit.
4. I'm advocating a limited stash option or no stash option, not forced limited stash. "No Stash" could be a simple thing to implement a la "Stash = True" or "Stash = False" (Stash = 1, Stash = 0). Could even be possible to mod the Stash out of the game entirely without bugs, but it depends on how the code is written and how much the Stash depends on other variables or vice versa.
5. As I thought. Why is this one even "can't change weapons"??? o.O
6. Eh, what? Why are the one-handed guns gone? T-T also, it wouldn't need a UI feature if done like I conceptualize. You'd simply drag and drop the "Ammo" item in the "Off-Hand" slot. You wouldn't need a designated "Ammo Slot" (Like in the IE games) if the Ammo is limitless anyways~


Edited by Osvir, 19 January 2015 - 08:14 AM.


#50
archangel979

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@Osvir 3. is actually impossible. There is no way to exit the map if you are "in combat." Stun, knockdown, hobble etc. do not end the combat state even if you manage to break engagement.
 
4. A limited stash would be worse. It means that for a long time you're happily playing with no inventory Tetris, then boom, you're faced with a marathon of it at once. Cf. Fallout 2's car trunk.
 
5. You can change weapons in combat, but only between your two (or three) weapon sets.
 
6. I don't think there are one-handed guns anymore. Sadly pirate pistols are a thing of the past. And yes, special ammo would need a UI feature to use it.
 
13. There aren't any AI UI helpers to speak of (and a good thing too). Characters just use their basic attack if not instructed to do otherwise.

3. Oh, you're talking about it in that way. That would be pretty cool... knockback the enemy or something, run away, hide, have them look for you. What I meant is that it's not impossible to kick some ass and then retreat back or run back a bit.
4. I'm advocating a limited stash option or no stash option, not forced limited stash. "No Stash" could be a simple thing to implement a la "Stash = True" or "Stash = False" (Stash = 1, Stash = 0). Could even be possible to mod the Stash out of the game entirely without bugs, but it depends on how the code is written and how much the Stash depends on other variables or vice versa.
5. As I thought. Why is this one even "can't change weapons"??? o.O
6. Eh, what? Why are the one-handed guns gone? T-T also, it wouldn't need a UI feature if done like I conceptualize. You'd simply drag and drop the "Ammo" item in the "Off-Hand" slot. You wouldn't need a designated "Ammo Slot" (Like in the IE games) if the Ammo is limitless anyways~

Nonek listed design "problems" in shorter form that are now confusing. Like I mention that escaping combat is not about engagement and I do say swapping weapon from inventory, I don't mention quickslots.

Edited by archangel979, 19 January 2015 - 08:26 AM.


#51
Sarex

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Inability to change weapons during combat will only lead to meta gaming and save scumming. People will just reload an encounter and switch to gear they need.


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#52
Gfted1

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Inability to change weapons during combat will only lead to meta gaming and save scumming. People will just reload an encounter and switch to gear they need.

 

I haven't played PoE since beta v1.0, have quick slots been removed? With up to four quick slots it seems every possible eventuality can be accounted for; one set for slashing weapon, one for crushing, one for piercing and one for....?



#53
PrimeJunta

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I think that's less likely than metagaming with grimoire spell selection. Weapon focus and specialization (for fighters) is extremely beneficial, which means each character will have a restricted pool of weapons to choose from. I think it's more likely that each character will pick the best weapons that fit their feats and use those. Smart players will give different characters different foci so someone can use anything, and then switch combat roles around if, say, something really really needs to be hit with a mace rather than a saber.

Edit: @Gfted1 There are two weapon slots by default. Additionally one of the aumaua subraces has "Armed to the teeth" as a perk which gives a third one. You can also take an extra weapon slot on levelup as a feat.

Edit edit: I can think of one good use for the third slot: gun in one, melee in one, other ranged in one. Unless they've changed the reload times again, guns are only good for one volley (but VERY good for that), so it would be useful to have something as a third slot.

Edited by PrimeJunta, 19 January 2015 - 09:35 AM.


#54
morhilane

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Inability to change weapons during combat will only lead to meta gaming and save scumming. People will just reload an encounter and switch to gear they need.

 

I haven't played PoE since beta v1.0, have quick slots been removed? With up to four quick slots it seems every possible eventuality can be accounted for; one set for slashing weapon, one for crushing, one for piercing and one for....?

 

 

The weapon quick slots are still there, everyone start with two of them and you can increase that number via talents...it also work in the last beta.



#55
Osvir

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Inability to change weapons during combat will only lead to meta gaming and save scumming. People will just reload an encounter and switch to gear they need.

 

I haven't played PoE since beta v1.0, have quick slots been removed? With up to four quick slots it seems every possible eventuality can be accounted for; one set for slashing weapon, one for crushing, one for piercing and one for....?

+up to 6 characters.



#56
wanderon

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Inability to change weapons during combat will only lead to meta gaming and save scumming. People will just reload an encounter and switch to gear they need.

 

I haven't played PoE since beta v1.0, have quick slots been removed? With up to four quick slots it seems every possible eventuality can be accounted for; one set for slashing weapon, one for crushing, one for piercing and one for....?

+up to 6 characters.

 

 

Plus many weapons deal two different types of damage using the "best" option between the two for what you are currently fighting - you don't even have to make the decision of which to use. 



#57
Sarex

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LoL, if it's that great in the BB, why pose any restrictions then?



#58
Nonek

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Oops edited for clarification, mea culpa.

 

Ctn2003:

1. No ambient or movie sound sliders.

2. Unable to drop items upon the ground.

Archangel979:

3. Fleeing combat impossible (unrelated to engagement.)

4. Infinite stash available everywhere, and yet the character models do not have a backpack or even a bag in which to hold anything.

5. Unable to change weapons from inventory during combat, or trade with companions.

6. Lack of ammunition, and thus no unique and enchanted examples.

7. Position of combat log may be disliked.

8. Camera angle may be disliked.

9. No walking animation, only able to run.

10. Elder name does not necessarily denote potency.

Luckmann:

11. Combat only abilities, preventing potent ambushing and initiation of combat.

12. No individual stealth options, stealth automatically dismissed at the initiation of combat.

Archangel979:

13. Turning off UI helpers, you have no idea what your characters are doing.

Gfted1:

14. No healing capabilities, other than minor ones such as Field Triage.


Edited by Nonek, 19 January 2015 - 11:10 AM.


#59
PrimeJunta

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LoL, if it's that great in the BB, why pose any restrictions then?


In your world, is there anything between "no restrictions at all" and "restrictions that are so strict everyone will just save-scum around them?"

'Cuz in mine, the two to three weapon slots sit somewhere between those two.

#60
archangel979

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Inability to change weapons during combat will only lead to meta gaming and save scumming. People will just reload an encounter and switch to gear they need.

I haven't played PoE since beta v1.0, have quick slots been removed? With up to four quick slots it seems every possible eventuality can be accounted for; one set for slashing weapon, one for crushing, one for piercing and one for....?
The weapon quick slots are still there, everyone start with two of them and you can increase that number via talents...it also work in the last beta.
Dear god, like I am in one those comic book opposite realms. Not only the limit is here but they add talents to make it even worse?!
Now lets waste talent slots on this bad design lol

Now the only question is if they put in talents because of bad design or made bad design so they have more "different" talents to put...

Edited by archangel979, 19 January 2015 - 11:41 AM.

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