Varied loot and balanced random loot tables = even more replayability?

[Lephys]

Gromnir, I grow tired of your irrelevant points that you arbitrarily attribute to me.

 

How is mentioning that combat can be boring a "mr. strawman routine"? I didn't claim anyone was calling for combat to be boring.

 

Also, I realize that opening a box doesn't have the same appeal as dispatching a foe. However, you also don't have to spend the duration of a combat encounter opening the box. And, again, I think the problem with opening a box being boring is if that's all there is to your efforts; if you jog your party around for 10 minutes doing a whole lot of nothing-else and/or boring stuff, solely for the purpose of getting to and opening the box, then it's lame. Not because of the act of opening the box, but because there wasn't anything else to it.

 

If you dispatch a bunch of foes guarding a box, then open the box, then BOOM: You've just opened a box to acquire something, but you still did something meaningful in the process of getting to it.

 

And yes, combat is one of the more prevalent mechanics of the game. Jogging around and clicking "open box" isn't. Thus, box-opening and plant gathering needs to be set into a more interesting context than just itself. That much is clear. But, there other more interesting mechanics to the game than just combat. So, it stands to reason that designing openable boxes and gatherable plants (basically, obtainable items in general) such that something interesting is done in the process of acquiring them is the desirable thing. This does not rule out the existence of plants or the storage of items in boxes, so I'm not seeing how having either is inherently negative or lackluster.

[Gromnir]

"exactly, makes that boring and other things not-boring. Combat? Just because combat is a big part of the gameplay? That's pretty circumstantial. There can still be boring, terrible combat"

 

is your memory that short? who the hell is gonna ask for the combat to be boring. yes, combat in poe could be boring, but why on earth is that relevant? you don't even know what you is doing anymore, do you? serious. 

 

HA! Good Fun!

[JFSOCC]

This has been an interesting conversation to read.  I'm not really sure where I come out on it.

 

Ultimately, you have an item customization system to balance out the effects of loot drops in a system where characters have several options and have to make specialization decisions in advance.  (Other primary way games balance this:  Have all the good stuff for sale.  Which is a lame.)  A customization system that requires specific inputs also functionally serves as a quest.  Indeed, they're often quests that feels more personal to the player-- they're solving a problem their character has, rather than one that some NPC questgiver has. 

 

So, I suppose that, like any quest, you want the right balance of appropriate challenge and fun.  Challenge is pretty straightforward-- have make the low-level modification ingredients relatively easy to get, and the higher-level ones comparably rare, expensive, or inaccessable. 

 

Fun is the tricky stuff.  I will posit that picking flowers is not especially fun (unless you're my niece, but she's 3 and also enjoys spinning around just to get dizzy).  Mining gems yourself wouldn't be any fun either.  Nor would just trudging from merchant to merchant to buy all the components you need.  Hopefully, the combat is fun.  That will clearly be an element of the "animal parts" ingredient, and possibly an element of the other two.  Rewarding a player's investment in a noncombat skill can be fun (e.g., the stealth example).  Hopefully, scripted interactions are fun.  Hopefully, NPC interactions are fun.  Hopefully, optional locations are fun to explore (for reasons beyond just "that's the only place where the Shimmering Gladiola grows").  Hopefully, resource-management in running the party stronghold is fun.

 

That said, I get Gromnir's point-- why have 3 objectives when 1 would do, and why plants when beastie viscera are a more natural consequence of typical-CRPG activities?  Which are fair questions.  I suppose that plants can be a useful way to give character to the game's locations ('The Breezeless Moors, where Sawyer's Stinkroot clouds the still air...'), and possibly a more natural goal in the game's scripted interactions.  There is probably more that I haven't thought of.  Is it worth the effort?  I dunno. 

It should not come to a point though where resources are restrictive enough that the only way you can kit out your party is to grind the endless paths over and over again.

[SKull]

I'm against random powerful loot, in most games random loot means either grinding or reloading for the right "item". Also random loot can make character concept difficult to play, e.g. I want to play an archer but the enemies only drop good firearms.

I'm also not sure how many people would replay a game to get a different item. I wouldn't replay a game because I get different items, I replay games because I want to play a different character and get different reactions.

A system that I wouldn't mind, would be if all powerful items are randomly distrubuted in the world at the beginning of the game. You can always get the item, but in different playthroughs you would need to solve different quests/defeat different enemies. e.g:

playthrough 1:

quest 1 solution 1 reward powerful sword.

quest 1 solution 2 reward powerful mace.

quest 2 solution 1 reward powerful pistol.

playthrough 2:

quest 1 solution 1 reward powerful mace.

quest 1 solution 2 reward powerful pistol.

quest 2 solution 1 reward powerful sword.

I agree with this. The replay value would definitely go up if some of the loot was at least a bit random.

[Silverfox]

Didn't Gandalf find Glamdring (or Foehammer) at nearly the beginning of the story in a barrowight's den without really having to fight for it? And he used it for the rest of the story.

 

It's okay to have powerful items drop that are right for your level. If you get a super lucky role and get a +N sword at level 6 that you can use until level 9 or 10, then that's okay.  The better arguement about uber-powerful weapons (etc) is that changing your gear and the graphics is part of what makes an game fun.

 

I've played a few games where your toon had one signature weapon that would get upgraded at various points in the game. I always thought they had a very tight budget and couldn't afford the art assets. The upgraded weapons should at least be shiny!

[Pray]

I'm, quite frankly, very okay with the game being less balanced if it means being more random. I for one am quite okay not knowing when and where exactly I'm going to find that perfect weapon. If that means holding off on weapon specilizations or taking a gamble - well - i'm okay with that too.

[Immortalis]

How much randomization we have will ultimately depend on the density of unique item placement.  I think I gave an example before of two maces or morning stars of middling power that had enough overlap that they could be randomly interchanged.

 

Additionally, our crafting/enchantment system does allow you to modify weapons -- even unique ones.  So if you have a specific group of bonuses you'd really like to have, you will probably be able to make that happen.

 

One of my biggest complaints about Divinity:Original Sin was that after finding a chest or killing an enemy, you would get this Diablo esque explosion of loot that was randomly generated and didn't feel important at all, just scaled to your level and might be good or might suck.

 

Random tables are great for gems or caches of treasure.. but I am glad to hear that the unique and special items will have a static home (I hope that was what you said). For my first play through I will feel the tension and excitement of finding that legendary sword with back story and a name. Future play through's I can plan my route around which items I need for my party.

 

Also I really want to see items belong to the creatures I kill.. If Bandits start dropping randomly generated "blue gear".. like please no.. That isn't IE..

 

 

Didn't Gandalf find Glamdring (or Foehammer) at nearly the beginning of the story in a barrowight's den without really having to fight for it? And he used it for the rest of the story.

 

It's okay to have powerful items drop that are right for your level.

 

Except this is a video game not a movie based on a book.. I think there should be a risk / reward for those items.. not a dice roll on a gibberling corpse. If you can sneak or kill something that has that item, good for you. If your gonna just farm goblins and pray the loot table falls in your favor.. That isn't an IE game.. at all.. Single Player Diablo wasn't the kickstarted project.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Immortalis

[Tartantyco]

Yeah, randomly generated loot is aRPG territory.

[hairyscotsman2]

Yeah, randomly generated loot is aRPG territory.

 

Nope. Divinity: Original Sin has turned-based strategy combat and has implemented random loot in a pretty well balanced manner. They have some fixed drops, mostly random.

I'd like to see PoE have some random and mostly fixed for the good stuff.

When done in a balanced way, with good methods, random loot can certainly add to replayability. It's when it's done badly (as it frequently is) that there's a problem.

Edited August 17, 2014 by hairyscotsman2

[Tartantyco]

 

Yeah, randomly generated loot is aRPG territory.

 

Nope. Divinity: Original Sin has turned-based strategy combat and has implemented random loot in a pretty well balanced manner. They have some fixed drops, mostly random.

I'd like to see PoE have some random and mostly fixed for the good stuff.

 

 

And I consider D:OS more of an aRPG, partially for that reason.

[Caerdon]

Yeah, randomly generated loot is aRPG territory.

 

That's simply because of historical reasons and because of people thinking like that ("can't have feature X because it's often used in competing genre Y"). A well-implemented loot generation & placement system wouldn't make a proper RPG any more A than it already is.

[Tartantyco]

While some common randomly generated loot is okay, I do not like the idea of magical items being randomly generated because of the further implications of such a system. Generic items, level scaling, lack of narrative character, loot hoarding, etc. It's never just as simple as "random vs. not random", there are effects beyond just the individual systems.

 

In Baldur's Gate, you could get some extremely powerful items just straight from the start, and you wouldn't do much item replacing as you got better and better items. A big part of aRPGs is that items are also a function of leveling. You can't use a weapon you picked up early in the game in the late game. I don't want that rat race gameplay in the spiritual successor to the IE games. I don't want anonymous statistics-providers in my weapon slots, I want items with a history, items with a reason for being where they are.

[Immortalis]

 

Yeah, randomly generated loot is aRPG territory.

 

That's simply because of historical reasons and because of people thinking like that ("can't have feature X because it's often used in competing genre Y"). A well-implemented loot generation & placement system wouldn't make a proper RPG any more A than it already is.

 

 

This is Grossly over simplification.. Random Loot has the penalty of not being as special or tailored to the content your playing. It doesn't work for a huge amount of reasons other then "Hurr hurr IE didn't do it". It was my single biggest complaint of Divinity Original Sin.. and that game was near flawless. The simple fact is I would have an inventory full of random Green and Blue items that all feel like garbage because of the random affixes. I would go long periods of time without any gear replacements and the game overall was plagued with loot fatigue.

 

When I killed that certain boss who I won't mention in this post.. You know who.. And he dropped static legendary two handed axe with his name on it.. my jaw almost dropped and I felt extremely excited. I wish the whole game had done that..

 

Me and Tartan rarely agree on anything.. He is definitely not a keep things the way they were kind of guy. He supports huge sweeping changes in this game.

 

You can't just generalize what we are thinking or read the first line of our posts then assume you know our perspective.

[Caerdon]

While some common randomly generated loot is okay, I do not like the idea of magical items being randomly generated because of the further implications of such a system. Generic items, level scaling, lack of narrative character, loot hoarding, etc. It's never just as simple as "random vs. not random", there are effects beyond just the individual systems.

 

In Baldur's Gate, you could get some extremely powerful items just straight from the start, and you wouldn't do much item replacing as you got better and better items. A big part of aRPGs is that items are also a function of leveling. You can't use a weapon you picked up early in the game in the late game. I don't want that rat race gameplay in the spiritual successor to the IE games. I don't want anonymous statistics-providers in my weapon slots, I want items with a history, items with a reason for being where they are.

 

The problem is that you're associating certain aspects from ARPGs with random loot systems - but those aspects really don't automatically follow from them. That's just the way random loot systems have been conventionally implemented, and more importantly, how they have been conventionally used.

 

Frankly, I've heard a lot of reasons why "random loot is bad", but in almost every case it's simply because people have their own misconceptions about what a random loot system can and cannot do - and what they think it necessarily will do. And honestly, it can do pretty much anything. Detailed background lore is really the only thing that can't be done without unreasonable amount of effort, but even that isn't really a problem - unique, hand-crafted items (with varying amout of built-in random variation) can always be placed alongside with generated loot, and it still can be placed "randomly".

 

Also, I want to make it clear that with "random loot" I'm not just talking about loot generation - loot placement is even more essential.

 

A well-implemented random loot system can ensure that loot is appropriate and makes sense in its context - based on environment, history, geography, culture, faction, race, class, level, quest, whatever. It can ensure that you only get loot suitable for your level or that powerful item are available early on - whatever the developers want. It can ensure that all item categories are well-represented. It can ensure that particular types of magical items are exactly as common or as rare as the developers want.

 

I think the major problem here is the word "random" - people seem to think there can be no control over that randomness, but that's totally incorrect.

 

Also, it's a popular misconception that random loot leads to save-reload cheesing, but this is not true. All random loot can be easily seeded at the very start of the game, so it doesn't matter how many times you reload and try to open that chest again or in which order you visit certain places etc.

 

This is Grossly over simplification.. Random Loot has the penalty of not being as special or tailored to the content your playing. It doesn't work for a huge amount of reasons other then "Hurr hurr IE didn't do it". It was my single biggest complaint of Divinity Original Sin.. and that game was near flawless. The simple fact is I would have an inventory full of random Green and Blue items that all feel like garbage because of the random affixes. I would go long periods of time without any gear replacements and the game overall was plagued with loot fatigue.

 

When I killed that certain boss who I won't mention in this post.. You know who.. And he dropped static legendary two handed axe with his name on it.. my jaw almost dropped and I felt extremely excited. I wish the whole game had done that..

 

Me and Tartan rarely agree on anything.. He is definitely not a keep things the way they were kind of guy. He supports huge sweeping changes in this game.

 

You can't just generalize what we are thinking or read the first line of our posts then assume you know our perspective.

 

Like I said above, you're associating ideas with random loot systems that really don't automatically rise from them. If D:OS uses a random loot system to generate endless amounts of green and blue items that don't make sense in the context, that's Larian's problem. It doesn't mean random loot can't be done well, or even that it's particularly difficult to do well. That's simply the way they're doing it - and while I haven't played it, I'm guessing they did it that way because Diablo did it that way (that's what I mean by historical reasons).

Edited August 17, 2014 by Caerdon

[Tartantyco]

I think you went to great lengths not to address any of the issues I raised in your reply, Caerdon.

[Caerdon]

I think you went to great lengths not to address any of the issues I raised in your reply, Caerdon.

 

I'm not avoiding any issue on purpose. If you think I missed some point you were making, please elaborate.

 

It think I addressed the following issues at least: generic items, level scaling, loot hoarding, anonymous statistics-providers, items with a history and items with a reason for being where they are. Perhaps I'm not addressing them as directly as you might want to - or as directly as I perhaps should - but it's all in there. I'm just talking about all this in rather generic level.

 

"Lack of narrative character" could really be interpreted in so many ways that I'm not making a claim on that one.

[Tartantyco]

No, the only thing you tried to address was powerful or level-scaled weapons. But the answer, "whatever the developers want" is also achieved by manually placing the items. And more successfully so. However, we're not talking about what the developers want or will do. We're talking about the effect of various systems.

 

By "lack of narrative character" I mean items that either have no backstory or reason for their presence which is in character with the local or global narrative.

 

And you're talking about it on a general level.

[Caerdon]

No, the only thing you tried to address was powerful or level-scaled weapons. But the answer, "whatever the developers want" is also achieved by manually placing the items. And more successfully so. However, we're not talking about what the developers want or will do. We're talking about the effect of various systems.

 

By "lack of narrative character" I mean items that either have no backstory or reason for their presence which is in character with the local or global narrative.

 

And you're talking about it on a general level.

 

If you think I only addressed powerful or level-scaled weapons, you didn't read my post very carefully.

 

Yes, "whatever the developers want" can be achieved by manual loot placing. More successfully? Well, that's not so straightforward. It takes a lot of effort, and the amount of effort is directly related to the amount of loot. Loot in the BG series, for example, was often extremely generic and repetitive; it was painfully obvious that it was simply drawn from a standard loot table. So much for "manually placing items" - obviously that was too much effort. Implementing a good random loot system also takes a big amount of effort, but once that's done, the amount of loot is completely irrelevant. More importantly, by placing all the loot manually you lose all the benefits that a random loot system can bring to the table - like a huge increase in replay value.

 

I addressed items with "reason for their presence which is in character with the local or global narrative". That can be done. (Btw, are trying to be as vague as you possibly can?)

[Tartantyco]

Loot in the BG series, for example, was often extremely generic and repetitive

 

 

Which is bad how? As I have said, I don't want this to be some loot hoarding, loot fatigue, leveling-through-items game. That's aRPGs, not IE games.

 

More importantly, by placing all the loot manually you lose all the benefits that a random loot system can bring to the table - like a huge increase in replay value.

 

 

How exactly does that work? How does me having a 50 DAM sword instead of a 50 DAM spear improve my replay value?

 

I think you need to define exactly what you mean by "random loot system". Because I don't think that making three unique weapons and then having an encounter with a chance of dropping one of those weapons as a random loot system.

 

I addressed items with "reason for their presence which is in character with the local or global narrative".

 

 

Yes, you said that those would not be random(Except placement). That is not having a random loot system.

[Immortalis]

 

No, the only thing you tried to address was powerful or level-scaled weapons. But the answer, "whatever the developers want" is also achieved by manually placing the items. And more successfully so. However, we're not talking about what the developers want or will do. We're talking about the effect of various systems.

 

By "lack of narrative character" I mean items that either have no backstory or reason for their presence which is in character with the local or global narrative.

 

And you're talking about it on a general level.

 

If you think I only addressed powerful or level-scaled weapons, you didn't read my post very carefully.

 

Yes, "whatever the developers want" can be achieved by manual loot placing. More successfully? Well, that's not so straightforward. It takes a lot of effort, and the amount of effort is directly related to the amount of loot. Loot in the BG series, for example, was often extremely generic and repetitive; it was painfully obvious that it was simply drawn from a standard loot table. So much for "manually placing items" - obviously that was too much effort. Implementing a good random loot system also takes a big amount of effort, but once that's done, the amount of loot is completely irrelevant. More importantly, by placing all the loot manually you lose all the benefits that a random loot system can bring to the table - like a huge increase in replay value.

 

I addressed items with "reason for their presence which is in character with the local or global narrative". That can be done. (Btw, are trying to be as vague as you possibly can?)

 

 

Loot in the BG series for example was extremely diverse and interesting for a game released in the 90's. Let me fix that statement for you.

 

If you think BG loot was badly placed or boring, you know loot with an entire side quests based around them but weren't actually quests themselves.. then you didn't want a BG game so why kickstart it.

 

Example:

Captain goes crazy and you have find and kill him.. Oh he dropped a cursed sword that gives berserking neat!. That is an item that supports a narrative structure.. The crazy captain didn't drop a blue helmet of the ox with +4 health and +2 pickpocketing. He dropped his sword.

 

 

[Logos]

I don't like variety in my rpgs, because I like learning them. I like knowing where things are, I like knowing what enemies are where, and I like knowing what happens when, because I like puzzling my way to alternate solutions. That sort of experience exists to a much lesser extent in Diablo III for me, because the items and locations are always different. You can't depend on anything going to happen, so all you can really control is your character build considered in a vacuum. In games where things stay the same you can build your character in conjunction with the environment you're playing him in, giving you much more control over the game and your experience than you would have otherwise.

[Caerdon]

 

Loot in the BG series, for example, was often extremely generic and repetitive

Which is bad how? As I have said, I don't want this to be some loot hoarding, loot fatigue, leveling-through-items game. That's aRPGs, not IE games.

 

 

Neither do I. That doesn't mean I don't prefer variety and surprises. Killing ten similar enemies to find out they all carry exactly the same stuff is wasted potential. I'm not asking for powerful, valuable loot. I just want some color.

 

 

More importantly, by placing all the loot manually you lose all the benefits that a random loot system can bring to the table - like a huge increase in replay value.

 

How exactly does that work? How does me having a 50 DAM sword instead of a 50 DAM spear improve my replay value?

 

I think you need to define exactly what you mean by "random loot system". Because I don't think that making three unique weapons and then having an encounter with a chance of dropping one of those weapons as a random loot system.

 

I takes a lot of replay value out of the game when you know exactly where to find each specific item in the game. I prefer not knowing in advance that Bassilus has an electric +2 hammer, that there's a Ring of Wizardry hidden in that tree, that pickpocketing this guys is a waste of time but that one has a Ring of Protection +2, that there's no reason to go into that particular cave whatsoever because there's nothing there or that it's better to pick weapon proficiency X instead of Y for class Z because powerful X weapons are available from the beginning.

 

Luckily there are mods for that. They aren't perfect, but they are still better than hand-placed loot.

 

A "random loot system" is a loot system that utilizes randomness in some form. It mixes in randomly generated items with pre-generated items in some ratio and uses random placement and/or placement by hand.

 

Random loot system doesn't imply that all loot must be generated randomly. It doesn't mean there cannot be unique, hand-crafted items. It doesn't mean that item type, power, level, placement etc. can't make any sense or be context-sensitive and suitable in its environment.

 

Above all, the word "random" itself doesn't mean "totally, absolutely fu**ing random with all control and common sense thrown out of the window".

 

 

I addressed items with "reason for their presence which is in character with the local or global narrative".

 

Yes, you said that those would not be random(Except placement). That is not having a random loot system.

 

 

Yes it is. It's a loot system that utilizes randomness.

 

Also, you misunderstood. Randomly generated items can have "reason for their presence which is in character with the local or global narrative".

 

--

 

Maybe I should add one thing... Do you know what's the one aspect I hate most in games like Borderlands, Torchlight and Diablo? It's the overabundance of loot and how the game forces you to collect it with steep power progression. Also, I'm not an ARPG guy in general, just so you know where I'm coming from. But simply because I hate how random loot generation is used in those games doesn't mean I can't recognize what it can be used for and what it can bring to the table if implemented right.

[Valorian]

 

 

Loot in the BG series, for example, was often extremely generic and repetitive

Which is bad how? As I have said, I don't want this to be some loot hoarding, loot fatigue, leveling-through-items game. That's aRPGs, not IE games.

 

 

 Killing ten similar enemies to find out they all carry exactly the same stuff is wasted potential. I'm not asking for powerful, valuable loot. I just want some color.

 

 

Ten similar enemies can be equipped, by hand, with ten different weapons and suits of armor and then placed where they fit. I love that.

[Caerdon]

Loot in the BG series for example was extremely diverse and interesting for a game released in the 90's. Let me fix that statement for you.

 

If you think BG loot was badly placed or boring, you know loot with an entire side quests based around them but weren't actually quests themselves.. then you didn't want a BG game so why kickstart it.

 

Example:

Captain goes crazy and you have find and kill him.. Oh he dropped a cursed sword that gives berserking neat!. That is an item that supports a narrative structure.. The crazy captain didn't drop a blue helmet of the ox with +4 health and +2 pickpocketing. He dropped his sword.

 

I said loot in BG series was often extremely generic and repetitive, not that it was all badly placed or boring. Yes, at it's best it was very diverse and interesting.

 

Okay, Captain Brage... Was there a specific reason that weapon needed to be specifically a two-handed sword? What if it was a halberd? Or a bastard sword? Both would go well with a captain of the guard. Yet it would keep things more interesting because you didn't know that in advance.

 

And LOL @ "then you didn't want a BG game so why kickstart it". You're not seriously making that argument, are you? We're talking about a minor aspect of a series of great role-playing games. Am I not allowed to criticize anything about those games, or does that mean I'm not a true fan and I should get the hell out of here?

 

I don't like variety in my rpgs, because I like learning them. I like knowing where things are, I like knowing what enemies are where, and I like knowing what happens when, because I like puzzling my way to alternate solutions. That sort of experience exists to a much lesser extent in Diablo III for me, because the items and locations are always different. You can't depend on anything going to happen, so all you can really control is your character build considered in a vacuum. In games where things stay the same you can build your character in conjunction with the environment you're playing him in, giving you much more control over the game and your experience than you would have otherwise.

 

Well, I guess we'll just need to agree to disagree, then. I don't find that nearly as much fun.

 

However, a random loot system could accomodate that, too - simply by having a setting that uses a fixed random seed for ever playthrough.

[Tartantyco]

Neither do I. That doesn't mean I don't prefer variety and surprises. Killing ten similar enemies to find out they all carry exactly the same stuff is wasted potential. I'm not asking for powerful, valuable loot. I just want some color.

 

 

And I have no problems with common items being taken randomly from (Restricted or unrestricted) item pools. But that is not what we're discussing.

 

I takes a lot of replay value out of the game when you know exactly where to find each specific item in the game.

 

 

Any meta-knowledge affects replay value in some way. Knowing all the quests, for instance. I do not believe that item randomness has any significant effect on replay value compared to quests. I do see random loot bringing with it a lot of destructive tendencies, though.

 

But once again, I'm not saying that having a small pool of pre-made unique items to draw from for one drop is an issue. That is not what we're discussing either.

 

A "random loot system" is a loot system that utilizes randomness in some form. It mixes in randomly generated items with pre-generated items in some ratio and uses random placement and/orplacement by hand.

 

 

I'm sorry, but you have to learn to draw within the lines.

 

Random loot system doesn't imply that all loot must be generated randomly. It doesn't mean there cannot be unique, hand-crafted items. It doesn't mean that item type, power, level, placement etc. can't make any sense or be context-sensitive and suitable in its environment.

 

 

And I have made no such claims.