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Gamers Against Bigotry


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#21
TrueNeutral

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In combination with dumb, rebellious teenagers yes, that is about the vague idea I had in mind concerning their identity. In all honesty, it's impossible to be sure but this problem is not limited to simply kicking boundaries to see how far they go.




It's not that big a windmill to tilt at. Both Ernest Adams' column and the Extra Credits episode give several easy fixes for problems like this.


Easy to say, for sure (Adams' is annoying to read with the snark) but I'm not a fan of enforced politeness all that much. But as Gorgon stated, you'll be trying to make a place where people are both anonymous and relatively safe from any retribution to be a civil space. Rather uphill challenge, it'll probably happen eventually though.


I'm not sold on it being anonymous. I have no problems with my name being visible, or at least available in some way. RealID hasn't impacted me in the slightest. I use my real name on social media like Facebook and it doesn't matter to me. As for "forced politeness", I'm not saying everyone has to be polite, I don't care if someone calls me a **** in a game, but discrimination and harrassment are another thing entirely.


Well is anonymous now, and on most online games you're just a handle (not sure how things are on the console side). The article by Adams seemed to have that aura of enforced civility where you have to 'earn' a right to speak or get fined for 'bad' (defined by who..) behaviour.

EDIT: And doesn't it bother anyone that the people speak out against this get attacked? Other than simple threats, Youtube videos on the subject get reported as terrorism, the website Gamers Against Bigotry has gotten hacked several times. Gamasutra runs all of Ernest Adams' Designer's Notebook columns but got cold feet on this one simply because of the violent way gamers react to this subject. The feminist gamer who announced a series about the subject became the subject of a game where the entire purpose was to beat the woman up. This is literally people being opressed.


Hm, yeah kind of. Some people on the internet seem to have crappy parents or weren't beaten enough as children, heh.


I have to admit the whole "earn the right to speak" idea is one idea that doesn't sit well with me. It strikes me as "guilty until proven innocent", plus I'm assuming that most people who don't have an agenda to push won't bother anyway.
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#22
Monte Carlo

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I have mixed feelings. I too, am leery of "enforced civility." The left increasingly use 'isms' to shut down debate they don't like (normally because they are losing), and online is their latest Gramscian battleground. Screw them. Personally, if a group of guys want to have a forum where they bitch about unrealistic nun units and I don't like it then I can (a) troll the hell out of it until I'm banned, just for the lulz or (b) just bloody well avoid it.

Getting incensed on someone elses behalf isn't (usually) how I roll.

On the other hand, the level of abuse on some online gaming servers is a disgrace, just on grounds of basic human civility. Company of Heroes, for example, is infested with Nazis. The gamereplays.org chatroom is full of racist and anti-semitic BS. Relic should be ashamed of itself for not moderating it.

Now, what's the difference between allegedly-sexist-nun-haters and CoH? Well, if I want to partake in the community for a game I bought and which has a EULA specifically prohibiting that type of behaviour then I think I'm entitled to see some standards enforced. The web forum? It's private property, dude, and I support property rights.

So I'm broadly supportive of what TN says. Then again, women are getting into gaming in such a big way, the dollars will follow them and the dudes bemoaning the lack of machismo in their games might as well shout at the nearest raincloud to stop pissing on them.

There are lots of women's forums that are hotbeds of the type of lazy sexism that they can get away with cuz they're women. If a bunch of crotchety dudes want a web-cave then let them get on with it. Not really my cup of tea, but there you go.

Cheers
MC

#23
TrueNeutral

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Yeah, I don't care if they want to congregate on their own little private island. That's their thing. Games aren't.

#24
entrerix

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possible point of view: "i dont know much, but i saw idiocracy, and im pretty sure things are just going to keep getting stupider."

another: "how will a bunch of non-racist gamers convince racist ones to not be racist when rational non-racist non-gamers can't do the same for the racist non-gamers?"

a third: "use the mute button, teach your children to use the mute button. take satisfaction in the fact that you make more money than the foul mouthed infant."

a fourth: "always press charges when able."

Edited by entrerix, 26 July 2012 - 10:35 AM.


#25
Monte Carlo

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You are a lawyer and I claim per diem fees, lunch and additional costs.
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#26
Delfosse

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From 1:10.


Edited by Delfosse, 26 July 2012 - 02:24 PM.

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#27
Azdeus

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I'm not sold on it being anonymous. I have no problems with my name being visible, or at least available in some way. RealID hasn't impacted me in the slightest. I use my real name on social media like Facebook and it doesn't matter to me. As for "forced politeness", I'm not saying everyone has to be polite, I don't care if someone calls me a **** in a game, but discrimination and harrassment are another thing entirely.


Well, speak for yourself. I do, the internet should be anonymous if you so choose, with all the good and the bad that comes with that freedom.

Whatever happened to sticks and stones?

Sure, it's not nice to be called all manner of nasty things, but this is'nt any different to the real world. A female feminist politician will get the exact same abuse and threats that Anita Sarkeesian got. And it's just as hopeless to actually enforce any harassment laws IRL as it is on the internet.

This'll make you laugh though, but I think that discrimination laws are in of themselves discrimination. Implies that certain individuals are'nt capable of handling themselves. Also; Freedom of speech and all that.

That said, I do think that developers should enforce their rules better in their games.

#28
Gorgon

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It's all very good to talk about the state of civility in games, but when it comes down to enforcing it, that's always worse. Is there some special case for mysogynists. I don't see it. How are they different all the other idiots.

There are different levels of interaction, when one is anonimous and brieftly interacts with someone one never expect to see again some people indulge their baser instincts. Don't be overly offended, that person is probably just letting off steam about something else in an environment where he can get away with it.

#29
TrueNeutral

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He can get away with it because we let him get away with it. I bought the game same as he, the developer spent a lot of time trying to build a community around this environment, why should we let him get away with it?

Well, speak for yourself.


Uh-Schwaaa? I don't even...

Okay, so I said I'm not completely sold on it, that it doesn't matter to me, and that I have no problems with. Everything is stated from my personal perspective and I didn't commit to the idea to do away with anonimity, I only said that I'm personally open to it as a possibility to solve this problem. How on earth am I speaking for anybody else? And this is applied to online video games only - I don't care about the rest of the internet.

Whatever happened to sticks and stones?


What happened to sticks and stones is that we left elementary school. Words aren't harmless, they can cause permanent emotional damage with long reaching consequences on their life. Especially children, as someone on the first page claimed is most games' target audience.

Sure, it's not nice to be called all manner of nasty things, but this is'nt any different to the real world. A female feminist politician will get the exact same abuse and threats that Anita Sarkeesian got. And it's just as hopeless to actually enforce any harassment laws IRL as it is on the internet.


Firstly, how exactly does the fact that this happens in real life make it somehow okay? Secondly, how does real life equate to a privately owned space like a video game at all?

This'll make you laugh though, but I think that discrimination laws are in of themselves discrimination. Implies that certain individuals are'nt capable of handling themselves. Also; Freedom of speech and all that.


Obviously. You can't adress inequality without acknowledging it. As for freedom of speech, it's a privately owned space. For example, if someone here was to spout Nazi hate speech on this board they would get banned because it is expressly forbidden by the board rules. Is the Obsidian Board administration team surpressing Freedom of Speech? No. This guy can spout his hate speech all he wants, just not here.

That said, I do think that developers should enforce their rules better in their games.


This is what I'm saying.

#30
Gorgon

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I don't understand how foul language from some tosser you don't know and have only the game in common with would even register on anyone's radar. Just don't validate people who are actively seeking confrontation or negative attention (don't feed the trolls)

What's the alternative after all, user mods monitoring the voice chat channels. Posted Image

#31
Hurlshot

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If it helps TN, I spend quite a few days in my class teaching digital citizenship.

The key here is to get to these kids at a young age and teach them how to play well with others. Parents do this all the time with the real world. My two year old is, by nature, selfish and aggressive. We are constantly reinforcing how to play well with others right now, so that in a few years when he goes off to school he will be successful. You have to do the same thing with the internet.

#32
Volourn

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I hate bigots. I hate sexist. I hate needless male bashing which seems to be a common theme on the interent and in real life. Some of the mosts exist people I've come across are either female or have a huge anti male stance. Disgusting!


Sexism is not a male only disease!

#33
TrueNeutral

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Misandry is also discrimination, and therefore would fall under bigotry.

I don't understand how foul language from some tosser you don't know and have only the game in common with would even register on anyone's radar. Just don't validate people who are actively seeking confrontation or negative attention (don't feed the trolls)

What's the alternative after all, user mods monitoring the voice chat channels. Posted Image


Harrassment often goes much further than "just one tosser saying some nasty things". That's just a marginalization of the problem. I've both seen and heard accounts of people in MMO's literally being followed around for days by groups of harrassers creating new toons simply to constantly hurl vicious insults - despite being able ignore and block users it eventually turns your experience sour because you're constantly having to deal with abuse and discrimination. A lot of women have learned not to let anyone know they're female in games because it tends to create a ****storm of discrimination from groups of people. It's created an environment where many people don't choose anonimity but are forced to hide integral parts of their identity.

As for solutions, I don't have any that I know will work, but that doesn't mean there aren't any. Since devs want to keep their customers, I'm thinking permanent bans are out of the question, World of WarCraft shows temporary bans even when people are still paying for subscriptions have only slightly impacted the problem. I'm going to cite James Portnow's idea of auto-muting anyone with enough verified complaints. Only people who actually want to hear the person will unmute him. I don't know how this will work out if actually put to use, but it might work at least to some extent and it seems worth trying.

Edited by TrueNeutral, 27 July 2012 - 07:59 AM.


#34
Gorgon

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sounds more like a minor inconvenience, hardly anything meriting the word 'harassment'. Still, possibly enough to turn one off the game. It's probably why I don't play MMOs anymore. Too many people that annoy me.

#35
Tigranes

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For example, if someone here was to spout Nazi hate speech on this board they would get banned because it is expressly forbidden by the board rules. Is the Obsidian Board administration team surpressing Freedom of Speech?



Oh, the argument's been made. A lot. :dancing:

#36
Volourn

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How 'bout just Nazi speech as opposed to Nazi 'hate' speech? Would that be acceptable?

#37
TrueNeutral

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I... urr... erm... what?

#38
Malcador

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Maybe some speech by Hitler about the economy or something along those lines ?

#39
Delfosse

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Maybe some speech by Hitler about the economy or something along those lines ?


along these lines?

Posted Image

#40
Morgoth

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This thread sort of went totally Fubar, and we're only on page 2.




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