28 replies to this topic

[Hurlshot]

I was pretty sad about the Boy Scouts recent decision to adopt a policy of open discrimination, and it looks like I'm not the only one:

http://news.yahoo.co...-184508093.html

I was a Webelo and I think I even received the Arrow of Light, which is basically the graduation from the cub scouts. Sadly, I can't imagine having my son take part in the cub or boy scouts with this type of policy in place. I expect the Boys and Girls Clubs of America, who openly oppose discrimination, will be gaining quite a few new members in the near future.

edit: Original source is better:

http://boingboing.ne...nks-of-for.html

Edited by Hurlshot, 25 July 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[Malcador]

Wonder how many have returned their medals, article's not clear on that.

[Gfted1]

You are aware that this case was settled 12 years ago? I dont see a mass exodus happening anytime soon.

[Hurlshot]

You are aware that this case was settled 12 years ago? I dont see a mass exodus happening anytime soon.

First off, this isn't a legal issue, as the organization is free to practice discriminatory policies according to law. This movement isn't challenging that. What it does is challenge the organization itself, who very recently adopted a hardline stance against any gay or lesbian leaders or members. Basically they went from a 'don't ask, don't tell' type policy to a more openly discriminatory one.

Also, society is clearly changing, and this type of discrimination is not just being fought by gays and lesbians. This is a lot of negative publicity for BSA, I have a hard time believing it won't hurt their membership down the line. I have quite a few friends who aren't just turning their back on BSA for their children, but jumping to support groups with non-discriminatory policies. Add this to the fact that Eagle Scouts, which are extremely highly regarded, are stating to protest this move, and you've got a very bad situation for BSA.

[Gfted1]

Nothing is different from the same "challenge" 12 years ago. People are free to leave for any reason and if they dont like the rules they should just form the Homosexual Scouts of America istead of trying to force their beliefs on everyone else. Chic-Fil-A is also publicly against homosexuality. Dont like it, dont eat their sammiches. Easy.

[Gorgon]

The gay and lesbian rigths people are free to use the boyscouts for activism purposes as well, it goes both ways.

Activism isn't sitting on your hands secure in the knowledge that you have the moral high ground. If you don't actively point out where in society these disciminations occur and attempt influence them you don't get media coverage, and you never get to critical mass were things start to change.

What good would the Selma march have been without pictures of racist cops going to town on peaceful protesters.

Edited by Gorgon, 25 July 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[Tale]

Nothing is different from the same "challenge" 12 years ago. People are free to leave for any reason and if they dont like the rules they should just form the Homosexual Scouts of America istead of trying to force their beliefs on everyone else. Chic-Fil-A is also publicly against homosexuality. Dont like it, dont eat their sammiches. Easy.

They're also free to return their medals and remove their children from the organization.

Which is what they're doing.

[Gfted1]

The gay and lesbian rigths people are free to use the boyscouts for activism purposes as well, it goes both ways.

Activism isn't sitting on your hands secure in the knowledge that you have the moral high ground. If you don't actively point out where in society these disciminations occur and attempt influence them you don't get media coverage, and you never get to critical mass were things start to change.

What good would the Selma march have been without pictures of racist cops going to town on peaceful protesters.

This battle has already been fought to the highest level and lost. There is no further recourse unless the BSA themselves change the rules and they have recently reviewed those rules (since this scout master presented them with some sort of signature sheet) and reaffirmed their stance on the matter.

They're also free to return their medals and remove their children from the organization.

Which is what they're doing.

Um, yes?

[Malcador]

Heh, this is going places.

[Guard Dog]

No smoke here...

[Gorgon]

The gay and lesbian rigths people are free to use the boyscouts for activism purposes as well, it goes both ways.

Activism isn't sitting on your hands secure in the knowledge that you have the moral high ground. If you don't actively point out where in society these disciminations occur and attempt influence them you don't get media coverage, and you never get to critical mass were things start to change.

What good would the Selma march have been without pictures of racist cops going to town on peaceful protesters.

This battle has already been fought to the highest level and lost. There is no further recourse unless the BSA themselves change the rules and they have recently reviewed those rules (since this scout master presented them with some sort of signature sheet) and reaffirmed their stance on the matter.

You don't get it, the activists can win both by getting the BSA to change their policy and by making them look like a biggoted organisation. They have momentum in several sattelite wars. This is just one possible Tet Offensive if you will.

[Gfted1]

What you dont seem to get is that they have looked like a biggoted organization since 1910, and again in 2000 when the Supreme Court upheld their rights as a private organization, and again today. They dont care. Private organization get to make the rules and everyone that doesnt like it is free to make their own private organization with whatever rules they like. Lifes a bitch, everyone doesnt have to accept everyone.

[Hurlshot]

What you aren't getting is that looking like a bigoted organization in today's world is different than it was in 1910, it's even different than it was in 2000. With the way information travels, with outlets like change.org, you've got tremendous pressure being put on organizations to change, much more pressure than in the past.

[Orogun01]

What you aren't getting is that looking like a bigoted organization in today's world is different than it was in 1910, it's even different than it was in 2000. With the way information travels, with outlets like change.org, you've got tremendous pressure being put on organizations to change, much more pressure than in the past.

What everyone seems to be missing is that the homosexual community is still a minority and the boy scout face enough homophobia even without allowing homosexuals in. I mean that every joke that has ever been made on the media about the boy scouts as a "gay" experience has painted a picture in the public. So they have to choose between the few parents that aren't homophobic or that are homosexual and the grand majority that believes that gay is a sin.
Is just a matter of them securing their customer base.

[Hurlshot]

You really think the grand majority still see homosexuality as a sin? Even if that is true, do you think that all of those people are oing to yank their kids out of Boy Scouts for having a non-discrimination policy? I can almost guarantee they are losing more people with this policy than they are keeping.

A lot of people like to point to some of the recent elections where gay marriage has been struck down by majority votes. In California, you had 5.5 million people vote for Prop 8, which was against gay marriage. But I like to remember that 4.5 million people voted against prop 8. That is a very large group voting against discrimination.

[Guard Dog]

I don't know about that one Hurlie. If I had a kid in Boy Scouts I would not yank him out over their discrimination practices even though I do think they are a little dumb. If he was enjoying himself and getting a benefit from the experience I would not take it away from him just because they would not allow gays. Unless he was gay then I'd tell him too bad, pick another activity.

The funny thing is if they discriminated on the basis of race I think I would have a problem with that. Go figure. I guess I just don't see gays as really being discriminated against.

Really, if you have two adult white males, one is homo, the other is hetro then they can both vote, both join the military, both live where they want, go into any store or restaurant they want, go into any kind of business they want, get any kind of job they want and marry anyone they want. (Even if the legal arrangements are slightly different the end result is exactly the same). When you get right down to it the only difference between them is who-sticks-what-where in the sack. So the way I see it being gay is no different than preferring tea over coffee.

Just my $.02

[ShadySands]

Don't they also have a policy against atheists and agnostics? Even though I don't think it's right for them to discriminate against gays if they are a private organization then I guess that is their right.

[Oblarg]

The funny thing is if they discriminated on the basis of race I think I would have a problem with that. Go figure. I guess I just don't see gays as really being discriminated against.

And this really is simply an inaccuracy in your worldview. This is no different than an organization refusing to admit black members, just as gay marriage is really no different than a state refusing to allow interracial marriage. The sooner people see this, the sooner we can move forward as a society.

[Orogun01]

You really think the grand majority still see homosexuality as a sin? Even if that is true, do you think that all of those people are oing to yank their kids out of Boy Scouts for having a non-discrimination policy? I can almost guarantee they are losing more people with this policy than they are keeping.

A lot of people like to point to some of the recent elections where gay marriage has been struck down by majority votes. In California, you had 5.5 million people vote for Prop 8, which was against gay marriage. But I like to remember that 4.5 million people voted against prop 8. That is a very large group voting against discrimination.

It's the United States, we have something called the "Bible Belt" and while not all religious men are fanatically blind to the point of fault, we still contend with quite a large sector that's more "conservative".
What they boy scouts are doing doesn't seem rational but fear is often not.

[Gorgon]

Maybe gay and lesbian rigths will go the way of the feminists, as in you won, give it a rest already. We aren't quite there yet though.