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Piracy


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#141
pmp10

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If I go steal your car, you cannot use your car anymore. If I go steal your food, you don't have it anymore. If a piece of software wasn't even available in a location and someone pirated it, that company LOSES NOTHING in that transaction. They can't even say they lost a sale really, because that person had no real way to actually BUY the dang thing in the first place.

The problem with this argument is that you want to judge whether any value was lost.
Or to put it another way: If someone doesn't use their car is it okay to steal it?
Surly it was going to rust no value loss will occur.

#142
Humodour

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Im surprised they havent figured out some way to send an electrical pulse back to the servers and simply fry them.


Wow, you really have no clue how the Internet (or electricity) works.

Edited by Krezack, 04 May 2012 - 01:30 AM.


#143
Gorth

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Regarding one of the parts not quoted from your post, most terms and conditions explicitly points out that it in part or whole may be superseded by local legislation.

In just about every place I know of...that's considered stealing...REAL...TRUE...stealing....and yet people always accuse the pirates of this stupidity when ignoring the REAL thieves in the business...the companies that are installing these safeguards that actually prevent LEGITIMATE buyers from actually using their products or services. What makes it worse is there doesn't seem to be anyone to actually take these theives down and make laws that are ENFORCED that say...if a company doesn't provide what it says...it WILL get punished for criminal acts...just like these companies want done to the people who don't actually pay for thier stuff (but typically have an easier time using the software since they don't have to jump through hoops like us legit buyers).


Nobody forces you to buy those products, just like nobody forces you at gunpoint to play video games. Entirely anecdotal, but I refuse to buy BD movies that are region encoded. A few major Hollywood companies actually offers them up on Amazon and they are the only ones that goes into my cart. Then they (movie companies) can whinge about dropping sales all they want. Do I regret buying ME3? You bet, it got uninstalled together with Origin again. Steam is currently the extreme pain threshold as far as I'm concerned.

Don't like local laws? Vote some different politicians in. It's part of the game of democracy (conveniently forgotten by those who cry "censorship!" when a part of some imaginary wild west universe suddenly has to follow the same rules as those outside their protective bubble).

Hands up those who think TPB has anything to with free speech (I know there is supposedly one born every minute, but still).

It's going to take a lot of convincing to believe the outrage isn't the loudest and most vehement from those whose illegal downloads are going to be impeded and they actually have to do a little work to find new sources or alternate routes to the same sources.

#144
Orogun01

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Hands up those who think TPB has anything to with free speech (I know there is supposedly one born every minute, but still).

Well, if we have defined copyright and intellectual property as ownership over ideas it could be a free speech case. Just with another meaning of the word "free" :p

#145
Gorth

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Well, if we have defined copyright and intellectual property as ownership over ideas it could be a free speech case. Just with another meaning of the word "free" :p

I don't know if it's defined as ownership of ideas (isn't that more a patent office thing???), I usually think of it as the right to determine what happens with the result of your own work. Lawyers could probably write page up and page down about what the definition is, what the intended purpose of the definition is and a number of examples and precedents and interpretations of the definitions (and charge you $300 per hour doing so) :p

#146
Malcador

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It's going to take a lot of convincing to believe the outrage isn't the loudest and most vehement from those whose illegal downloads are going to be impeded and they actually have to do a little work to find new sources or alternate routes to the same sources.


Pft very, very little work to find a decent torrent site. Well unless they're hunting porn, but I imagine the DD sites like RS/FS/Oron can pick up the slack for that :p

#147
Amentep

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Many people are looking at it this way.

If I am in European Union, I have same duties and must obey same common laws as inhabitants of UK, Germany, Sweden. I want to have same privileges than them. If the company does treat me as a lower human being compared to other less "backwater" countries, I will treat the company same way...

I am not telling that it is right/wrong, but I hope you get the point, what is in a mind of less responsible youths...

All EU inhabitants are the same in the eyes of the EU laws, but still they are not...


This is an interesting way of putting it, it'd be similar to everyone in the US being able to play a game except people in the Dakotas because there wasn't enough people there to make it worth distributing the product. Thanks.

The entire digital piracy thing is an interesting item.

Who here has ever played a Bioware game.

Congratulations, you participated in piracy.

Wha...What? you say?

That's right. Some of the items used in the BG series were used WITHOUT the original author's authorizations. T$R claimed full rights to those items, but depending on how you view copyrights...it's impossible for them to say they actually OWN some of the stuff that they have in the FR.


Forgotten Realms, D&D all of that are IPs belonging to TSR and their successor companies; I can't think of any work done for TSR that wouldn't (or shouldn't) have been done by an employee, a work-for-hire, or a licensee and most big companies don't let total rights to their properties go to other companies. Was there something specific you were referring to?

The only iify thing I can think of were the rights to the cartoon which are still with Marvel Animation, but the use in BG II I think would fall under fair use / parody.

At any rate even if you're correct and I'm not thinking of something obvious that was questionable in use, I'd think the "piracy" in such a scenario would be on the part of Bioware, not on the part of the (unknowing) customer.

If I go steal your car, you cannot use your car anymore. If I go steal your food, you don't have it anymore. If a piece of software wasn't even available in a location and someone pirated it, that company LOSES NOTHING in that transaction. They can't even say they lost a sale really, because that person had no real way to actually BUY the dang thing in the first place.


I think the comparison comes up because of the idea that (a) some creator isn't getting paid for their work (or in the case of games, some creator won't be paid for future work because this game flopped since everyone pirated it) and (b) in the US at least the people who pirate have legitimate ways to purchase the product but choose not to procure via that method.

Anyways, I have my games legal...but with the unending ridiculous loopholes that the companies keep putting on legit customers like me...


I don't like some of the draconian measures in place myself; and with the recent rumors about the next gen consoles - well I have great worries about companies moving to a "you have to be online to validate ownership of a game" model. Where I live its currently impossible to have any kind of internet connection other than dial-up (I happen to live in a giant ass gap between various service areas) and this kind of model would remove me from gaming at all.

Edited by Amentep, 04 May 2012 - 04:44 AM.


#148
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Because you think I'm gonna try to convince an impregnable arrogant insulting fool that he's wrong? Are you serious? No, I'm gonna take offense in your gibberish, tell you who you are and be on my way to do actual interesting things instead of talking to a spastic. If you want to become someone better, drop everything you're doing right now, lock your doors, shut your phone and start reading philosophy/history/politics books for a year. I know you're not gonna do this, so even writing this was a waste of my time. By the way, soviet national is an oxymoron.


Rofl...I didnt even know you were trying to convince me of anything. See, your problem is that youre a weak minded fool who can only debate by being overly aggressive and trying to redirect to random points in history. Im not the only one youve taken this stance with so this isnt some one-off cause "you so angy". Rant on but you just look like a tool.

Im really surprise by the attitude of some of you whos opinions I respect take property rights. Its "not really stealing"? What? Whether its the stone tablets of yesteryear, the books / 1 & 0's of today, or the pulses of light tomorrow, property rights dont cease to exist because the medium of distribution changes. Also, you dont deserve something beacause you are a special unique snowflake.

#149
Amentep

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I find the "1s & 0s" argument interesting. There's an area in art about taking something that exists (and which you may or may not own the rights too) and being transformative of it so that a new and unique item of the artist's making is created and I almost feel that this is where the argument is going except that when someone says something like "its just 1s & 0s that if decoded the right way would make a game" there's never an explanation of what other use there would be to downloading that particular set of 1s & 0s other than decoding the way to make a game.

I'm not sure that digital piracy really falls under property rights (since there isn't a physical entity to have a right to) and I think that's why there's such a struggle to understand what it means by many people. Instead of taking a physcial disc, some electrons are inconvenienced. Some intellectual rights, copyrights, distribution rights, maybe even patents might be violated though. In some ways the Internet has opened a number of issues that I think our society and our laws are struggling to conceptualize.

I recall a time a few years ago when a few companies got in trouble for appropriating art from people's deviant art accounts and using them for their own posters. The companies actually said "we found them online and assumed fair use". The end result of these were that the companies were in the wrong, but there was little the creators could do to prevent it from happening once they posted the work online other than close the barn doors after the horses were gone.

#150
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Don't like local laws? Vote some different politicians in. It's part of the game of democracy


But there's no democracy, only kleptocracy and lobbying. And lobbying >> your vote. Made me laugh, thanks.
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#151
LadyCrimson

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I find the "1s & 0s" argument interesting. There's an area in art about taking something that exists (and which you may or may not own the rights too) and being transformative of it so that a new and unique item of the artist's making is created and I almost feel that this is where the argument is going except that when someone says something like "its just 1s & 0s that if decoded the right way would make a game" there's never an explanation of what other use there would be to downloading that particular set of 1s & 0s other than decoding the way to make a game.

I'm not sure that digital piracy really falls under property rights (since there isn't a physical entity to have a right to) and I think that's why there's such a struggle to understand what it means by many people. Instead of taking a physcial disc, some electrons are inconvenienced. Some intellectual rights, copyrights, distribution rights, maybe even patents might be violated though. In some ways the Internet has opened a number of issues that I think our society and our laws are struggling to conceptualize.

I recall a time a few years ago when a few companies got in trouble for appropriating art from people's deviant art accounts and using them for their own posters. The companies actually said "we found them online and assumed fair use". The end result of these were that the companies were in the wrong, but there was little the creators could do to prevent it from happening once they posted the work online other than close the barn doors after the horses were gone.

The issue/problem is that in terms of intellectual property rights, people never owned those things in the first place. We (usually) didn't own the music, or the TV show, or the game, regardless of whether we had a physical product. The "ownership" was/is an illusion. We owned the plastic the music was pressed into and we purchased the right to play it on a record player. We purchased the right to break the plastic disc in disgust if we hated the music or flush a book down a toilet if the words on the paper offended us. Taking away the physical doesn't alter the fact we (didn't always) own the rights to do whatever we pleased (copy/redistribute) with the conceptual product that was on that piece of plastic.

One could always pirate stuff, of course. On a street corner in certain parts of town for example. I don't view piracy on the internet as being any different...it's just a much grander/huger scale, and instead of having to walk around seedy parts of town trying to find an illegal seller, without getting arrested, and paying even $5 to the pirate per item, you sit in your living room and pay nothing but internet access fees. Easier and more tempting all the time, which breeds more and more emotional justifications for doing it.

Edit: please note I'm not arguing whether the legal notion of intellectual copyright is "right" or "wrong" in the first place....

Edited by LadyCrimson, 04 May 2012 - 10:55 AM.


#152
MacMichael

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If I go steal your car, you cannot use your car anymore. If I go steal your food, you don't have it anymore. If a piece of software wasn't even available in a location and someone pirated it, that company LOSES NOTHING in that transaction. They can't even say they lost a sale really, because that person had no real way to actually BUY the dang thing in the first place.

The problem with this argument is that you want to judge whether any value was lost.
Or to put it another way: If someone doesn't use their car is it okay to steal it?
Surly it was going to rust no value loss will occur.


Actually there are laws that allow that sort of thing. Here in the US. Adverse possession in the case of citizens taking something that isn't theirs and eminent domain for the government.

http://en.wikipedia..../Eminent_domain
http://en.wikipedia....erse_possession
http://boingboing.ne...case-in-bo.html

After all, the government has an interest in land, for instance, being used. A piece of land that sits unused doesn't have people living or working there paying or generating taxes, no businesses extracting minerals paying fees. Potentially creating an eyesore or place for people to gather for illegal activities. Etc. etc. etc. But copyright that sits abandoned and/or unused should be unviolatable?

I dislike piracy. I've traded games on 5 1/4" floppies. But I've also bought many of those same traded albums. I buy all my current games. I pick things up off GoG when they become available. I work in the photography industry. I talk to people all the time about how I can't make copies of their 30 year old photos because they don't own the rights to the image. They just own the print. I've noticed very few people care about copyright when it actually stops them from doing something they want to do. They may not download games, they may not download music, but that class photo of them from years ago, why should they have to track down some photographer that may not be alive that worked for some studio that may not even be open, they ask me. Because it's the law. Personally, I think copyright needs a major overhaul, though I don't trust that any overhaul that actually gets done would actually move things in a better direction. Too much money involved.

I don't like piracy, but I'm not going to look down on people that do it on occasion. I'll look down on people that do it a lot, especially when they have the funds and access that they really should have a reason to. This actually reminds me of some talk/conference that I heard about in Eastern Europe/Russia several years ago, where Microsoft talked about how happy they were that the software industry there had grown and the achievements they were making, while the developers talked about how it wouldn't have been possible without first pirating Microsoft products to get the point where they could compete and produce at a level to purchase Microsoft products. I think the issue to far too complex on the macro level to simply say "Piracy is freedom." or "Pirates are scummy scum scum!"

Edited by Tigranes, 04 May 2012 - 11:42 AM.

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#153
LadyCrimson

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@MacMichael
:lol: Oh yeah, when I was a kid, we'd all (adults and kids alike) make copies of our records on audio tape and hand them out to friends. Or lend books. As tech advanced I'd scan yearbook photos to post on a blog about my highschool years or whatever without making an attempt to contact the photographer. Or other minor and/or youth related infractions. Interpretation of law is often a flexible thing, in the minds of us humans. Especially since laws are often rather arbitrary, since you have to pick a line in the sand to "enforce" and what gets picked at any given time...well, of course not everyone is going to agree/believe it's the correct line.

#154
pmp10

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If I go steal your car, you cannot use your car anymore. If I go steal your food, you don't have it anymore. If a piece of software wasn't even available in a location and someone pirated it, that company LOSES NOTHING in that transaction. They can't even say they lost a sale really, because that person had no real way to actually BUY the dang thing in the first place.

The problem with this argument is that you want to judge whether any value was lost.
Or to put it another way: If someone doesn't use their car is it okay to steal it?
Surly it was going to rust no value loss will occur.


Actually there are laws that allow that sort of thing. Here in the US. Adverse possession in the case of citizens taking something that isn't theirs and eminent domain for the government.

Except this regards land and is instituted by law.
I don't see why the same should apply to intellectual property.
We make exceptions to our laws in extraordinary situations but greater good will not be served by allowing people to torrent the latest video game.

#155
Mamoulian War

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If I go steal your car, you cannot use your car anymore. If I go steal your food, you don't have it anymore. If a piece of software wasn't even available in a location and someone pirated it, that company LOSES NOTHING in that transaction. They can't even say they lost a sale really, because that person had no real way to actually BUY the dang thing in the first place.

The problem with this argument is that you want to judge whether any value was lost.
Or to put it another way: If someone doesn't use their car is it okay to steal it?
Surly it was going to rust no value loss will occur.


Actually there are laws that allow that sort of thing. Here in the US. Adverse possession in the case of citizens taking something that isn't theirs and eminent domain for the government.

Except this regards land and is instituted by law.
I don't see why the same should apply to intellectual property.
We make exceptions to our laws in extraordinary situations but greater good will not be served by allowing people to torrent the latest video game.


As far I understand, he did not talk about newest games, he did talk about IPs which were abandoned long time ago and the owner is unknown...

...But copyright that sits abandoned and/or unused should be unviolatable?



#156
Mamoulian War

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An interesting article about open-science and the need of moving to the new era of "nextgen" business models for publishers of science works

http://arstechnica.c...n-the-tubes.ars

Most interesting is the quote at the end of the article by David Willetts, the UK's Minister of State for Universities and Science.

...Willetts had a rather stark warning for them: adapt, or bad things will happen. "To try to preserve the old model is the wrong battle to fight," Willetts said. "Look at how the music industry lost out by trying to criminalize a generation of young people for file sharing. It was companies outside the music business such as Spotify and Apple, with iTunes, that worked out a viable business model for access to music over the web. None of us want to see that fate overtake the publishing industry."



#157
MacMichael

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If I go steal your car, you cannot use your car anymore. If I go steal your food, you don't have it anymore. If a piece of software wasn't even available in a location and someone pirated it, that company LOSES NOTHING in that transaction. They can't even say they lost a sale really, because that person had no real way to actually BUY the dang thing in the first place.

The problem with this argument is that you want to judge whether any value was lost.
Or to put it another way: If someone doesn't use their car is it okay to steal it?
Surly it was going to rust no value loss will occur.


Actually there are laws that allow that sort of thing. Here in the US. Adverse possession in the case of citizens taking something that isn't theirs and eminent domain for the government.

Except this regards land and is instituted by law.
I don't see why the same should apply to intellectual property.
We make exceptions to our laws in extraordinary situations but greater good will not be served by allowing people to torrent the latest video game.


Though if they download Windows and some programming tools in the former Soivet-bloc countries and build a thriving software industry that then starts buying things legitimately, doesn't that serve the greater good? Microsoft praised the rise of that area's software industry, though they did try to ignore the piracy that it was based on.

If say, people in Africa download games, tools, take other peoples stories and work to build up a creative core that then starts making new work, that fresh and new, that joins the larger world community, is this bad, because they stole something? Or is this overall good, because it provides a foothold to something greater? And can you tell the difference between the pirate that just pirates and the pirate that then goes on to make something greater from the piracy and treat them differently?

When you're talking about piracy, you're talking about copyright infringement. That applies to far more than just games. Maybe we should protect games different from other IPs? Otherwise focusing on just one small piece of the puzzle instead of the whole picture isn't going to work. As the law stands, it covers everything, so it needs to work for everything.
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#158
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All you guys are doing is trying to whittle down the discussion until you produce some cant lose scenario. "We can cure cancer in tards", "What if that one book that 5 people want isnt for sale", "The villagers that live in cow dung huts deserve it", "So do I because those villagers have it". Its all BS to make yourselves feel better. Stealing is stealing. When we talk about piracy we all know exactly what were talking about, the stealing of luxury items that you dont want to pay for, not some pie-in-the-sky idea that by downloading the latest game/music/movie youre saving the world. Prison is full of people that are convinced they are innocent, but that doesnt make it true.

#159
pmp10

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Though if they download Windows and some programming tools in the former Soivet-bloc countries and build a thriving software industry that then starts buying things legitimately, doesn't that serve the greater good?

Sure it will - the greater good of people in that former-Soviet bloc country.
This however should not concern Microsoft and frankly if we were to be satisfied with such low likelihoods we can as well abolish private property altogether.
After all - you never know if the things you own can possibly result in greater good when put in other people hands.

#160
greylord

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Because you think I'm gonna try to convince an impregnable arrogant insulting fool that he's wrong? Are you serious? No, I'm gonna take offense in your gibberish, tell you who you are and be on my way to do actual interesting things instead of talking to a spastic. If you want to become someone better, drop everything you're doing right now, lock your doors, shut your phone and start reading philosophy/history/politics books for a year. I know you're not gonna do this, so even writing this was a waste of my time. By the way, soviet national is an oxymoron.


Rofl...I didnt even know you were trying to convince me of anything. See, your problem is that youre a weak minded fool who can only debate by being overly aggressive and trying to redirect to random points in history. Im not the only one youve taken this stance with so this isnt some one-off cause "you so angy". Rant on but you just look like a tool.

Im really surprise by the attitude of some of you whos opinions I respect take property rights. Its "not really stealing"? What? Whether its the stone tablets of yesteryear, the books / 1 & 0's of today, or the pulses of light tomorrow, property rights dont cease to exist because the medium of distribution changes. Also, you dont deserve something beacause you are a special unique snowflake.


Here's an easier take then the Bioware example I gave earlier on why MOST Americans (NOT Russians, not Indians....AMERICANS) have committed Piracy.

This is why you may say there is a difference between actually STEALING something and Piracy.

Piracy is taking the ideas of something that you didn't come up with and using them...in it's most basic form. AKA...piracy deals more with taking an idea or service rather than stealing a physical object.

So you can pirate software, you can pirate music, you can pirate movies (saying you didn't steal physical items of these).

So where is my example?

There's a popular song sung in the US and Canada on people's birthdays. It's basically the Happy Birthday song. I won't repeat it here or write it down, but the instant I said it, you probably recognize it. Have you ever sung that song?

Congratulations...you pirated it.

That's right...that song is still under copyright and unless you paid the studio for it's use...you pirated.




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