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Mass Effect 3

...and thanks for all the Fish

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#481
Drowsy Emperor

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ME 1,2 & 3>BG 1&2


Volourn hijack your profile?

#482
Gorth

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ME 1,2 & 3>BG 1&2


Volourn hijack your profile?

Doubtful. There was no NWN in there.

#483
Bos_hybrid

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ME 1,2 & 3&--#62;BG 1&2


Volourn hijack your profile?


Them's fighting words.

Edited by Bos_hybrid, 19 March 2012 - 01:44 AM.


#484
Giantevilhead

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It's funny how people complain about the ending nullifying all your choices but ignore the fact that the game already makes ME 2's main plot pointless. Think abou it.

1. Collectors were a major asset to the Reapers and stopping them would seriously hurt the Reapers, right?

Nope, there's nothing in ME 3 to suggest that the destruction of the Collectors was a big setback for the Reapers. In fact, the Reapers arrived just a few months after the Collectors were destroyed.

2. Destroying the Collectors made Shepard an even bigger hero, helped bring more attention to the Reaper threat, brought the different races together, and gave the galaxy a much better chance against the Reapers, right?

Nope, "The Arrival" completely wiped out all the goodwill Shepard got from destroying the Collectors. People continue to ignore Shepard's warnings and remain ignorant of the Reapers. Everyone is still unprepared.

3. This awesome team you gathered against the Collectors will be a huge asset and continue to fight with you against the Reapers, and that gives me an extra incentive to keep them alive, right?

Nope, the whole team disbanded and went their separate ways after "The Arrival" DLC. A few of your team members do some cool stuff but most of them have other stuff to do and can't/won't fight alongside you.

4. Surely, the decision to keep or destroy the Collector base was significant, whether or not Cerberus is still on my side no doubt depends on it, right?

Nope, Cerberus becomes evil. Destroying the Collector base has no real consequences. Keeping it gives you access to a different ending that's mostly same with the "best" ending.

Edited by Giantevilhead, 19 March 2012 - 03:14 AM.


#485
Raithe

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Throwing in a mix of devil's advocate here..

1. Collectors were a major asset to the Reapers and stopping them would seriously hurt the Reapers, right?


The Collectors were an asset, in that they do genetic profiles of the alien races - They kidnap various creatures and perform experiments on them over the years that the Reaper's are in Dark Space. Thus providing intelligence that the Reapers use to plan their "invasion sweeps". Also highlighting which races are suitable for uplifting to "full Reaper", which to send to the lesser reapers, and which to use just for the various Husk models.. Plus they can act as a form of early "fifth column". Since they had already provided the majority of that data to the Reapers, the only thing you get by wiping them out is stopping their "early collection" of humanity and removing the potential fifth column aspect.


2. Destroying the Collectors made Shepard an even bigger hero, helped bring more attention to the Reaper threat, brought the different races together, and gave the galaxy a much better chance against the Reapers, right?


It made Shepard a bigger hero to the human alliance, and not even all of them. Half the universe couldn't really be bothered, and how many of them actually heard about it? It's not as if it made the Galactic News, to most people outside the Terminus the Collectors are pretty much an Urban Myth. And for the majority of the game, people thought Cerberus might be behind the missing colonies. Whilst Shep might have been willing to work with them over it, everyone else still saw Cerberus as that shady, terrorist organisation.

3. This awesome team you gathered against the Collectors will be a huge asset and continue to fight with you against the Reapers, and that gives me an extra incentive to keep them alive, right?


The team wasn't gathered to fight the Reapers later. They were brought forth as being uniquely skilled, that could potentially be useful on a suicide mission.
None of them really expected to make it out alive. So seeing as you likely solved a lot of their personal issues, as well as keeping them alive - They needed time to unwind and figure out where/who they were in the galaxy after it. Combien with Shep most likely dropping them off before he handed himself over to the Alliance. Since pretty much most of the team have criminal pasts and he couldn't be guaranteed they'd be let free on his say so.

Although, when you get down to it, each Loyal Crew member who is alive is worth 25 War Assets. Hell, some entire fleet's are only worth a couple of hundred.. I'd say that's going to count for something. Just because their skills might be more useful in not-quite-so-direct ways. Such as Kasumi's technical knowledge helping the Crucible Project (and her ability to find/acquire useful items that might not be shared otherwise).

4. Surely, the decision to keep or destroy the Collector base was significant, whether or not Cerberus is still on my side no doubt depends on it, right?


Partly that comes down to more of a roleplaying choice. What type of person your Shepard is. Does he think the shortcut and potential dangers are worth it? Will he put principles first and not worry about whether he can trust the Illusive Man?
Although on a strictly numbers game, the Collector base can provide a couple of nice boosts to your War Assets if you saved it. If you don't, you only get access to the.. Reaper Heart I believe, which is about 100 War Assets worth. If you saved it, there's about triple the War Assets in Reaper-tech of some sort.
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#486
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While I'm sure the story has it's share of plot holes, just one has been bothering me. How exactly the reapers showed up so fast in the galaxy? Did it take them, what, two and half years after ME1?

Where they even needed the citadel then if they could just joyride in to galaxy when they felt like it?

#487
Nepenthe

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While I'm sure the story has it's share of plot holes, just one has been bothering me. How exactly the reapers showed up so fast in the galaxy? Did it take them, what, two and half years after ME1?

Where they even needed the citadel then if they could just joyride in to galaxy when they felt like it?

They actually only take off at the end of ME2, so less than that. :p

The Citadel's purpose is twofold, first it allows them to decapitate the society with a surprise attack to its nerve centre, second it gives them control of the mass relays. So the difference this time is that they can't wipe out the council and everybody else before anybody has realised they exist and that Shepard can travel around gathering forces for a single attack instead of allowing the reapers to destroy spacefaring races system at a time.

#488
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Oh, right. That was explained in ME1 wasn't it. Been a while.

#489
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Oh, right. That was explained in ME1 wasn't it. Been a while.

I'm pretty sure Vigil explains it towards the end.

#490
Giantevilhead

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Throwing in a mix of devil's advocate here..


1. Collectors were a major asset to the Reapers and stopping them would seriously hurt the Reapers, right?


The Collectors were an asset, in that they do genetic profiles of the alien races - They kidnap various creatures and perform experiments on them over the years that the Reaper's are in Dark Space. Thus providing intelligence that the Reapers use to plan their "invasion sweeps". Also highlighting which races are suitable for uplifting to "full Reaper", which to send to the lesser reapers, and which to use just for the various Husk models.. Plus they can act as a form of early "fifth column". Since they had already provided the majority of that data to the Reapers, the only thing you get by wiping them out is stopping their "early collection" of humanity and removing the potential fifth column aspect.


2. Destroying the Collectors made Shepard an even bigger hero, helped bring more attention to the Reaper threat, brought the different races together, and gave the galaxy a much better chance against the Reapers, right?


It made Shepard a bigger hero to the human alliance, and not even all of them. Half the universe couldn't really be bothered, and how many of them actually heard about it? It's not as if it made the Galactic News, to most people outside the Terminus the Collectors are pretty much an Urban Myth. And for the majority of the game, people thought Cerberus might be behind the missing colonies. Whilst Shep might have been willing to work with them over it, everyone else still saw Cerberus as that shady, terrorist organisation.

3. This awesome team you gathered against the Collectors will be a huge asset and continue to fight with you against the Reapers, and that gives me an extra incentive to keep them alive, right?


The team wasn't gathered to fight the Reapers later. They were brought forth as being uniquely skilled, that could potentially be useful on a suicide mission.
None of them really expected to make it out alive. So seeing as you likely solved a lot of their personal issues, as well as keeping them alive - They needed time to unwind and figure out where/who they were in the galaxy after it. Combien with Shep most likely dropping them off before he handed himself over to the Alliance. Since pretty much most of the team have criminal pasts and he couldn't be guaranteed they'd be let free on his say so.

Although, when you get down to it, each Loyal Crew member who is alive is worth 25 War Assets. Hell, some entire fleet's are only worth a couple of hundred.. I'd say that's going to count for something. Just because their skills might be more useful in not-quite-so-direct ways. Such as Kasumi's technical knowledge helping the Crucible Project (and her ability to find/acquire useful items that might not be shared otherwise).

4. Surely, the decision to keep or destroy the Collector base was significant, whether or not Cerberus is still on my side no doubt depends on it, right?


Partly that comes down to more of a roleplaying choice. What type of person your Shepard is. Does he think the shortcut and potential dangers are worth it? Will he put principles first and not worry about whether he can trust the Illusive Man?
Although on a strictly numbers game, the Collector base can provide a couple of nice boosts to your War Assets if you saved it. If you don't, you only get access to the.. Reaper Heart I believe, which is about 100 War Assets worth. If you saved it, there's about triple the War Assets in Reaper-tech of some sort.


But none of that addresses the fact that the main plot of ME2 had very little if any impact on ME3.

The premise of the Mass Effect 2 is that the Collectors are a big threat tied to the Reapers, destroying them is of the utmost importance, the future of the galaxy may depend on it, blah blah blah. Well, ME3 tosses all that out the window and ignores the premise of that game. You gave some reasonable explanations for why ME2's main plot didn't have an impact on ME3, but that's not the point. The point is that it didn't have an impact, the why is not relevant.

#491
BobSmith101

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While I'm sure the story has it's share of plot holes, just one has been bothering me. How exactly the reapers showed up so fast in the galaxy? Did it take them, what, two and half years after ME1?

Where they even needed the citadel then if they could just joyride in to galaxy when they felt like it?

They actually only take off at the end of ME2, so less than that. :p

The Citadel's purpose is twofold, first it allows them to decapitate the society with a surprise attack to its nerve centre, second it gives them control of the mass relays. So the difference this time is that they can't wipe out the council and everybody else before anybody has realised they exist and that Shepard can travel around gathering forces for a single attack instead of allowing the reapers to destroy spacefaring races system at a time.


Then you have to wonder if they are as strong as they make out why the need for subterfuge? The problem with ME as a whole is tiime has no meaning,nor does anything you accomplish in any of the games. Both ME and ME2 were relying on ME3 to give shape to those earlier actions.Something ME3 failed to do.

You had the perfect X-com type scenerio in the making.At the start of ME the enemy was an unknown factor, through the game you fill those blanks and at the end you even aquire a Reaper to reverse engineer. The Reapers plan A fails and they are stuck where ever they hang out.
ME2 becomes the Reapers plan b. At the end of ME2 you have even more stuff you could reverse engineer and more Reaper data , plus you added some more Reapers to the kill count.
I skipped arrival,so I can't really comment too much on it. But it looks like another delaying action.

Cue ME3 , where you are now tooled up to fight the Reapers but you still have to convince everyone to aim in the same direction. Not disimiliar to FFX-2 where you have the threat of Vendagun but people are still caught up in their squabbles. We see through the game that the Reapers are not that strong at all and we discover a key structural weakness. But we are not allowed to do anything with it. Only follow the pre-set path and pick a colour,which renders anything we did before pointless and arguably leaves things worse than if the Reapers had "won".

#492
Nepenthe

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... overanalysis...

#493
Raithe

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And for those who might have missed it.

Casey Hudson's letter to the ME community:

There’s been a lot of discussion and debate about the conclusion of Mass Effect 3, so I thought I’d share my perspective with you here. I’ll avoid outright spoilers, but I’d still recommend finishing the game and experiencing it for yourself before reading this.

For the last eight years, Mass Effect has been a labor of love for our team; love for the characters we’ve created, for the medium of video games, and for the fans that have supported us. For us and for you, Mass Effect 3 had to live up to a lot of expectations, not only for a great gaming experience, but for a resolution to the countless storylines and decisions you’ve made as a player since the journey began in 2007. So we designed Mass Effect 3 to be a series of endings to key plots and storylines, each culminating in scenes that show you the consequences of your actions. You then carry the knowledge of these consequences with you as you complete the final moments of your journey.

We always intended that the scale of the conflict and the underlying theme of sacrifice would lead to a bittersweet ending—to do otherwise would betray the agonizing decisions Shepard had to make along the way. Still, we wanted to give players the chance to experience an inspiring and uplifting ending; in a story where you face a hopeless struggle for basic survival, we see the final moments and imagery as offering victory and hope in the context of sacrifice and reflection.
We've had some incredibly positive reactions to Mass Effect 3, from the New York Times declaring it “a gripping, coherent triumph”, to Penny Arcade calling it “an amazing accomplishment”, to emails and tweets from players who have given us the most profound words of appreciation we've ever received.
But we also recognize that some of our most passionate fans needed more closure, more answers, and more time to say goodbye to their stories—and these comments are equally valid. Player feedback such as this has always been an essential ingredient in the development of the series.

I am extremely proud of what this team has accomplished, from the first art concepts for the Mass Effect universe to the final moments of Mass Effect 3. But we didn't do it on our own. Over the course of the series, Mass Effect has been a shared experience between the development team and our fans—not just a shared experience in playing the games, but in designing and developing them. An outpouring of love for Garrus and Tali led to their inclusion as love interests in Mass Effect 2. A request for deeper RPG systems led to key design changes in Mass Effect 3. Your feedback has always mattered. Mass Effect is a collaboration between developers and players, and we continue to listen.

So where do we go from here? Throughout the next year, we will support Mass Effect 3 by working on new content. And we’ll keep listening, because your insights and constructive feedback will help determine what that content should be. This is not the last you’ll hear of Commander Shepard.
We look forward to your continued support and involvement as we work together to shape the remaining experiences in the story of the Mass Effect trilogy.
Thanks for taking this journey with us.

Casey Hudson



#494
BobSmith101

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And for those who might have missed it.

Casey Hudson's letter to the ME community:


There’s been a lot of discussion and debate about the conclusion of Mass Effect 3, so I thought I’d share my perspective with you here. I’ll avoid outright spoilers, but I’d still recommend finishing the game and experiencing it for yourself before reading this.

For the last eight years, Mass Effect has been a labor of love for our team; love for the characters we’ve created, for the medium of video games, and for the fans that have supported us. For us and for you, Mass Effect 3 had to live up to a lot of expectations, not only for a great gaming experience, but for a resolution to the countless storylines and decisions you’ve made as a player since the journey began in 2007. So we designed Mass Effect 3 to be a series of endings to key plots and storylines, each culminating in scenes that show you the consequences of your actions. You then carry the knowledge of these consequences with you as you complete the final moments of your journey.

We always intended that the scale of the conflict and the underlying theme of sacrifice would lead to a bittersweet ending—to do otherwise would betray the agonizing decisions Shepard had to make along the way. Still, we wanted to give players the chance to experience an inspiring and uplifting ending; in a story where you face a hopeless struggle for basic survival, we see the final moments and imagery as offering victory and hope in the context of sacrifice and reflection.
We've had some incredibly positive reactions to Mass Effect 3, from the New York Times declaring it “a gripping, coherent triumph”, to Penny Arcade calling it “an amazing accomplishment”, to emails and tweets from players who have given us the most profound words of appreciation we've ever received.
But we also recognize that some of our most passionate fans needed more closure, more answers, and more time to say goodbye to their stories—and these comments are equally valid. Player feedback such as this has always been an essential ingredient in the development of the series.

I am extremely proud of what this team has accomplished, from the first art concepts for the Mass Effect universe to the final moments of Mass Effect 3. But we didn't do it on our own. Over the course of the series, Mass Effect has been a shared experience between the development team and our fans—not just a shared experience in playing the games, but in designing and developing them. An outpouring of love for Garrus and Tali led to their inclusion as love interests in Mass Effect 2. A request for deeper RPG systems led to key design changes in Mass Effect 3. Your feedback has always mattered. Mass Effect is a collaboration between developers and players, and we continue to listen.

So where do we go from here? Throughout the next year, we will support Mass Effect 3 by working on new content. And we’ll keep listening, because your insights and constructive feedback will help determine what that content should be. This is not the last you’ll hear of Commander Shepard.
We look forward to your continued support and involvement as we work together to shape the remaining experiences in the story of the Mass Effect trilogy.
Thanks for taking this journey with us.

Casey Hudson


Could someone point out the sweet bits ? I seem to have missed them.

#495
Raithe

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Could someone point out the sweet bits ? I seem to have missed them.


I thought the whole Tuchanka: Shroud mission was really well done. The mix of humour from Wrex, the bittersweet nature of Mordin, the well-paced action sequences between the two moods..

The way they wove in previous squad mates into the story depending on whether they survived/were loyal or not was nicely handled. I might have wished for more, but what was there was quite smoothly done.

Dealing with the Quarians and Geth felt quite satisfying. Well, right up until the ending made it feel there was no real point to having done it..

#496
Nepenthe

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There are no sweet bits there, the attempt is to make some of the uproar calm down. As someone pointed out, some of the more visible criticism towards the ending (Forbes) is starting to leak to the front pages in search engines even in general searches for Mass Effect 3, and not just Mass Effect 3 Endings. I think it's slowly dawning on them that a big part of their good customers are now spitting mad, and this isn't just a vocal minority making waves. I'm sure their assessment of the situation is still "oh, it'll blow over, it always does", but there are starting to be aspects that are difficult to ignore. Frankly, if they don't grab this opportunity to make a DLC/"Enhanced Edition" that's gonna sell like hotcakes, they are more arrogant and less cynical than I'd dared assume.

Edit: Fail on my part, I assumed sweet bits in the post. Raithe points out the sweet bits in the game, but the ending is indeed devoid of them.

Edited by Nepenthe, 19 March 2012 - 04:43 AM.


#497
BobSmith101

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Could someone point out the sweet bits ? I seem to have missed them.


I thought the whole Tuchanka: Shroud mission was really well done. The mix of humour from Wrex, the bittersweet nature of Mordin, the well-paced action sequences between the two moods..

The way they wove in previous squad mates into the story depending on whether they survived/were loyal or not was nicely handled. I might have wished for more, but what was there was quite smoothly done.

Dealing with the Quarians and Geth felt quite satisfying. Well, right up until the ending made it feel there was no real point to having done it..


Sorry, I meant in the endings.

#498
Raithe

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Ah well.

In the endings.. yeah. I can't really say.

Hm, the music isn't half-bad for what they're attempting to do. But there's no sense of closure (at least, none that I really picked up) and it pretty much seems to invalidate all the sacrifices you made getting there.

#499
Slinky

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Casey Hudson's letter to the ME community:


We always intended that the scale of the conflict and the underlying theme of sacrifice would lead to a bittersweet ending—to do otherwise would betray the agonizing decisions Shepard had to make along the way. Still, we wanted to give players the chance to experience an inspiring and uplifting ending; in a story where you face a hopeless struggle for basic survival, we see the final moments and imagery as offering victory and hope in the context of sacrifice and reflection.

Casey Hudson


I don't quite get that. The trilogy never felt like a story of hopelessness and sacrifice where you had to make agonizing decisions. I managed easily to do everything "perfectly", got everybody to work with each other and saved (almost) everyone.

Thats where the ending goes down the drain, how hard it would have been to change the outcome depending how well you did earlier? Do well and the reapers are defeated without too much losses, screw up and the galaxy gets screwed. And actually make it damn clear to the player how things went in the galaxy after.

Funny how the ending didn't bother me when I finished the game, but now when I have started to think about it it's very much in the facepalm category.

#500
Raithe

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I can deal with the whole "sometimes crud happens, no matter what you do." and having dark endings. What I find horrible is the fact that your choices don't actually play into it in anyway, and you get no closure or sense of what happens after the events.

If only they'd done one of their epilogues that gave some rough sketches of how people/events shaped because of your choices, even after giving you a blue/orange/green ending.




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