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The joys of the falklands..

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#41
Gorgon

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I'm sure they know saber rattling is consequence free aside from diplomatically.

Edited by Gorgon, 21 February 2012 - 05:29 AM.


#42
Gorgon

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What's going on here. Are you embarassed to admit that your country's past imperial success was largely due to the fact that it was isolated and well protected from incursions from Europe, leaving aside the Normans, or perhaps some antiquated notion of the Commonwealth, you can belong anywhere geographically and still be joined in spirit, that sort of thing.


So the fact that the islands were originally uninhabited.. that 70% of the population are descended from English, Scots, Welsh... and that nearly 90% of the entire population (including the non-UK descended residents) want to stay as British citizens and do not want to even discuss the idea of Argentina taking sovereignity of the islands have nothing to do with the situation? That's not imperialism, or colonialism. If the people there follow a specific culture, and believe they're a part of it, and they act that way.. and say "hey, this is my flag of choice".. then yeah, I'd say they're fairly joined in spirit.

And hey, in two millenia we were invaded by the Romans, the Saxons, the Vikings, the Normans... you can't exactly say we didn't suffer incursions. We're just good at absorbing them into the culture.. ;)


What's going on here. Are you embarassed to admit that your country's past imperial success was largely due to the fact that it was isolated and well protected from incursions from Europe, leaving aside the Normans, or perhaps some antiquated notion of the Commonwealth, you can belong anywhere geographically and still be joined in spirit, that sort of thing.


So the fact that the islands were originally uninhabited.. that 70% of the population are descended from English, Scots, Welsh... and that nearly 90% of the entire population (including the non-UK descended residents) want to stay as British citizens and do not want to even discuss the idea of Argentina taking sovereignity of the islands have nothing to do with the situation? That's not imperialism, or colonialism. If the people there follow a specific culture, and believe they're a part of it, and they act that way.. and say "hey, this is my flag of choice".. then yeah, I'd say they're fairly joined in spirit.

And hey, in two millenia we were invaded by the Romans, the Saxons, the Vikings, the Normans... you can't exactly say we didn't suffer incursions. We're just good at absorbing them into the culture.. ;)

That's kindof where I was going with 'nevermind the Normans'

#43
Gorgon

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quote code borked ?

#44
Nepenthe

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.


So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?

Well, either way, it still doesn't make sense given that the Falklands is across an ocean, and an entire hemisphere. Unless there's some form of "island hegemony" in play.

Kind of like Guam, eh?

Is a nearby government saying "It's ours you prick!" to the USA?

No?

Then no, it's not like Guam.

So colonialism isn't controlling a foreign territory and not allowing them participation in the democratic process but denying Argentinians oil?

Ok.

:)

#45
Calax

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.


So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?

Well, either way, it still doesn't make sense given that the Falklands is across an ocean, and an entire hemisphere. Unless there's some form of "island hegemony" in play.

Kind of like Guam, eh?

Is a nearby government saying "It's ours you prick!" to the USA?

No?

Then no, it's not like Guam.

So colonialism isn't controlling a foreign territory and not allowing them participation in the democratic process but denying Argentinians oil?

Ok.

:)

Guam is welcome to join the political process... they have a rep in the senate (among other things) and are relatively autonomous. Federal Taxes collected on the island go to the local government, rather than the Feds.

They have enough people that if they they could go and become a state, but they don't want to.

#46
Gorgon

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Well, yes, the US is largely done with its colonial era in the pacific, if you ask around Bikini, the Philipines and Puerto Rico they don't recall it too fondly though.

#47
Nepenthe

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.

So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?

Well, either way, it still doesn't make sense given that the Falklands is across an ocean, and an entire hemisphere. Unless there's some form of "island hegemony" in play.

Kind of like Guam, eh?

Is a nearby government saying "It's ours you prick!" to the USA? No? Then no, it's not like Guam.

So colonialism isn't controlling a foreign territory and not allowing them participation in the democratic process but denying Argentinians oil? Ok. :)

Guam is welcome to join the political process... they have a rep in the senate (among other things) and are relatively autonomous. Federal Taxes collected on the island go to the local government, rather than the Feds. They have enough people that if they they could go and become a state, but they don't want to.

Sounds a lot like the Falklands, then.

Well, apart from the fact that the representative of Guam is just an observer.

Edited by Nepenthe, 21 February 2012 - 11:16 AM.


#48
Gfted1

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.

So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?

Well, either way, it still doesn't make sense given that the Falklands is across an ocean, and an entire hemisphere. Unless there's some form of "island hegemony" in play.

Kind of like Guam, eh?

Is a nearby government saying "It's ours you prick!" to the USA? No? Then no, it's not like Guam.

So colonialism isn't controlling a foreign territory and not allowing them participation in the democratic process but denying Argentinians oil? Ok. :)

Guam is welcome to join the political process... they have a rep in the senate (among other things) and are relatively autonomous. Federal Taxes collected on the island go to the local government, rather than the Feds. They have enough people that if they they could go and become a state, but they don't want to.

Sounds a lot like the Falklands, then.

Well, apart from the fact that the representative of Guam is just an observer.


I just wanted in on whats shaping up to be a hell of a quote pyramid.

#49
Calax

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Except that there is no other local government that had control of the land at a time in the recent past demanding the land back

#50
Malcador

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So I guess both the British and the US are bad then.

#51
Calax

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Not bad, not good, they're both looking out for national interests although I think that's a thin justification for the brits in the Falklands, while Guam provides a stable base to project power into the Asian hemisphere

#52
Raithe

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Not bad, not good, they're both looking out for national interests although I think that's a thin justification for the brits in the Falklands, while Guam provides a stable base to project power into the Asian hemisphere


Um, did we miss the whole.. it was uninhabited islands a couple of centuries ago?

That the English colony was there before Argentina existed as a country?..

That the majority of the population are descended from the various UK families that have moved out there?

The key reason we protected them is because.. gee, the people there are British, say they're British, have been organised along British laws and systems of governance (well, apart from that short period that they were occupied by the forces of an Argentine military junta) and strangely enough, say they want to remain with the country of their choice... which just surprisingly enough.. is the UK..

#53
Malcador

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Well then case closed, seems a lot of chest puffing over nothing.

#54
Calax

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And would they do the same to protect the British citizens who have immigrated to Spain (in such force that there are kids growing up who have never spoken spanish, or even seen an actual spanish citizen)?

#55
Nepenthe

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.

So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?

Well, either way, it still doesn't make sense given that the Falklands is across an ocean, and an entire hemisphere. Unless there's some form of "island hegemony" in play.

Kind of like Guam, eh?

Is a nearby government saying "It's ours you prick!" to the USA? No? Then no, it's not like Guam.

So colonialism isn't controlling a foreign territory and not allowing them participation in the democratic process but denying Argentinians oil? Ok. :)

Guam is welcome to join the political process... they have a rep in the senate (among other things) and are relatively autonomous. Federal Taxes collected on the island go to the local government, rather than the Feds. They have enough people that if they they could go and become a state, but they don't want to.

Sounds a lot like the Falklands, then.

Well, apart from the fact that the representative of Guam is just an observer.


I just wanted in on whats shaping up to be a hell of a quote pyramid.

:dancing:

#56
Humodour

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Britan would not have a greater claim to Paris than to Glasgow because of..... drumroll.... The channel. As you well know Geography is not merely distance. Military logistics play a factor in most cases. Especially in Europe where everybody has been at war with everybody else at some point. Mountain ranges are natural barriers in Spain and Italy, etc. etc.

So countries are like witches. They can't cross water?

Well, either way, it still doesn't make sense given that the Falklands is across an ocean, and an entire hemisphere. Unless there's some form of "island hegemony" in play.

Kind of like Guam, eh?

Is a nearby government saying "It's ours you prick!" to the USA? No? Then no, it's not like Guam.

So colonialism isn't controlling a foreign territory and not allowing them participation in the democratic process but denying Argentinians oil? Ok. :)

Guam is welcome to join the political process... they have a rep in the senate (among other things) and are relatively autonomous. Federal Taxes collected on the island go to the local government, rather than the Feds. They have enough people that if they they could go and become a state, but they don't want to.

Sounds a lot like the Falklands, then.

Well, apart from the fact that the representative of Guam is just an observer.


I just wanted in on whats shaping up to be a hell of a quote pyramid.

:dancing:


I disagree.

#57
Raithe

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And would they do the same to protect the British citizens who have immigrated to Spain (in such force that there are kids growing up who have never spoken spanish, or even seen an actual spanish citizen)?


That actually isn't quite the same as protecting citizens under your own sovereignity... The whole point of immigration is that you've pretty much said you want to move to that country and become a citizen of said country.

Immigration to another country means accepting that other country. Both that you want to enjoy their climate, their economic goodies, and their law and form of government. And the descendents would grow up with Spanish law , culture and wotnot, even if they remained in a English speaking area. Heh, look at some of the areas where immigrants from Poland and India have shifted into some cities in the UK. You can walk through entire areas where you won't hear any English being spoken, but they're still British citizens.


It's not like the people of the Falklands went to another country took over a small section of land where people were living, ignored the people already there and then basically said "this is our land and we're a part of those guys over there".

The Falklands - Uninhabited. The first people in recorded history to land on it were English in 1690.

A British expedition built a harbor on one of the uninhabited islands sometime before 1770. - Note, once more, uninhabited, and a wee bit before Argentina came into existense as an independent country.

On 2 April 1982, Argentina invaded the Falkland Islands and other British territories in the South Atlantic. The military junta which had ruled Argentina since 1976 sought to maintain power by diverting public attention from the nation's poor economic performance and the growing internal opposition and exploiting the long-standing feelings of the Argentines towards the islands.


Of course, since then it's been a nice topic for the Argentine politicians to pull up whenever they need to pull some crowd pleasing time .. and then well, the whole discovery of potential oil has only increased the tensions of the situation.

And for all the purported "colonialism" of the UK over this, we actually had a treaty with the Argentines over how the oil should be handled and split between them and us. A treaty that they decided to suddenly pull out of in the late 90's if I recall during another time they decided it would be pleasing to their domestic policy to make noises about "reclaiming" Islands that have never been a part of Argentina.

The main thrust of the Argentine claim.. is that there was a Spanish colony on one of the islands for about 40 years. Oh, and that colony? Was one that the Spanish had taken from the French...
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#58
Calax

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Going to point out that in any event, the US should be trying to kick out the Brits from the Americas as part of the Monroe doctrine

#59
Raithe

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Going to point out that in any event, the US should be trying to kick out the Brits from the Americas as part of the Monroe doctrine


The Monroe doctrine noted that the United States would neither interfere with existing European colonies nor meddle in the internal concerns of European countries.

At the time, the Falklands were an existing colony.. not a revolutionary or independent one.
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#60
Walsingham

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It's laughable, if understandable, to assert that the Falklands are 'too far away' from the UK. Surely the most enlighteneed form of sovereignty _possible_ is where the native inhabitants want to belong?

The inverse, where mere proximity is used as a kaibosh over neighbouring territories underpins dozens of savage wars worldwide.

Note that it's not as if these people have suddenly voted to be British having been Argentine. This would be impossible, as they've been British since before there was an Argentina to belong to!





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