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Mass Effect 3

Fear the Grimdark Reaper

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#21
Malcador

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They reverse engineered it from Sovereign, apparently.

Following the Battle of the Citadel, human and turian volunteers conducted a massive three-month survey effort to clear the station's orbit of debris. Secretly, the turian Office of Technological Reconnaissance "volunteers" were technology recovery specialists salvaging the main weapon of the geth flagship Sovereign, and large amounts of its valuable element zero core.
Contrary to popular belief, Sovereign's main gun was not a directed energy weapon. Rather, its massive element zero core powered an electromagnetic field suspending a liquid iron-uranium-tungsten alloy that shaped into armor-piercing projectiles when fired. The jet of molten metal, accelerated to a fraction of the speed of light, destroys targets by impact force and irresistible heat.
Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate.


Edited by Malcador, 07 February 2012 - 04:40 PM.


#22
Orogun01

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I wonder if BW will go further with the fan pandering making ME3 a big orgy?

Also maybe its because I first saw the Chobot picture on /v/ but she really looks like Snooki.....and she probably wants Shnu Shnu

#23
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I thought they didn't have much of a reputation at all, going to great lengths to remove all traces of their presence after raiding a colony? Only becasue that surviving Quarian (sp?) recording events on his iphone (qphone?) does Sheppard and Co. know for certain that somebody and their insects invaded a colony. Otherwise Collectors are known to intelligence services because of their shady dealings through strawmen and mercenaries.
Wasn't the BFG of the Normandy based on the tech of that lizard-bird species that Garrus belongs to?


They weren't known for the attacks on the human colonies, that was a secret. But if you picked up stuff from the various novels and comics, the Collectors as a "mysterious species" were well known in Omega and that region of space. Everyone knew they came through the Omega Relay, and they tended to turn up and conduct strange deals and collect species - aka, seemingly pull random slaving missions. Trade weird, advanced tech for specific odd genes, mutated creatures, and the like.

They have that reputation of engimatic, not to be messed with that would be very similar to some darkly dangerous, semi-criminal group would have in those environments. Also, that they'd been around for a very long time, but no-one knew specific details about them.. Just that they had that sort of reputation.

#24
Oblarg

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After the top secret, reverse-engineered Reaper technology/quarian ubertech/etc upgrades to Normandy 2, it is, indeed, a "super ship".


You don't need any of the upgrades to beat the Collector cruiser, and none of the upgrades are "super-secret" other than the weapon upgrade, which even then only elevates your frigate to cruiser-class firepower. The Collector cruiser clearly lacks the strength to pose any threat to actual alliance space, which has been my point all along.

#25
Gorth

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I thought they didn't have much of a reputation at all, going to great lengths to remove all traces of their presence after raiding a colony? Only becasue that surviving Quarian (sp?) recording events on his iphone (qphone?) does Sheppard and Co. know for certain that somebody and their insects invaded a colony. Otherwise Collectors are known to intelligence services because of their shady dealings through strawmen and mercenaries.
Wasn't the BFG of the Normandy based on the tech of that lizard-bird species that Garrus belongs to?


They weren't known for the attacks on the human colonies, that was a secret. But if you picked up stuff from the various novels and comics, the Collectors as a "mysterious species" were well known in Omega and that region of space. Everyone knew they came through the Omega Relay, and they tended to turn up and conduct strange deals and collect species - aka, seemingly pull random slaving missions. Trade weird, advanced tech for specific odd genes, mutated creatures, and the like.

They have that reputation of engimatic, not to be messed with that would be very similar to some darkly dangerous, semi-criminal group would have in those environments. Also, that they'd been around for a very long time, but no-one knew specific details about them.. Just that they had that sort of reputation.

Ah, I only know what I'm actually told "in-game" :)

@Malcador: Is that from the "Codex" entry of the gun? I might have skipped a bit on the reading there.

#26
Malcador

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Yeah I looked it up on the game's wiki

#27
Orogun01

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After the top secret, reverse-engineered Reaper technology/quarian ubertech/etc upgrades to Normandy 2, it is, indeed, a "super ship".


You don't need any of the upgrades to beat the Collector cruiser, and none of the upgrades are "super-secret" other than the weapon upgrade, which even then only elevates your frigate to cruiser-class firepower. The Collector cruiser clearly lacks the strength to pose any threat to actual alliance space, which has been my point all along.

If Vietnam and Napoleon (it was actually the British) had something to teach was the importance of mobility, "an army walks on its stomach" if you will.
On a frontal assault the Collectors would be crushed but their strength lies in the Omega 4 relay, they can attack anywhere with little fear of repercussion since (before the events of ME2) no ship can survive the journey.
Actually, scratch that an armada will probably crash with all the ship debris. So unless there is a way to handle that, they are still untouchable post ME2

#28
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If Vietnam and Napoleon (it was actually the British) had something to teach was the importance of mobility, "an army walks on its stomach" if you will.
On a frontal assault the Collectors would be crushed but their strength lies in the Omega 4 relay, they can attack anywhere with little fear of repercussion since (before the events of ME2) no ship can survive the journey.
Actually, scratch that an armada will probably crash with all the ship debris. So unless there is a way to handle that, they are still untouchable post ME2


That's the thing, though - they were certainly a thread to the fringe colonies. I'm fine with that. But for all the strength their untouchable base of operations gives them, there's still absolutely no way they could logically attack any colonies in even lightly-defended space given their demonstrated complete inability to win any sort of pitched fight against an actual warship. If the plot had been written with this in mind, that wouldn't be a problem - unfortunately, the plot has everyone in the game acting as if the Collectors are some genuine threat to Humanity's existence. This leaves either the possibility of BioWare simply forgetting to give the Collectors the sort of force they'd require to fill their intended role (gaping plot hole) or of BioWare writing every character other than TIM as a braindead idiot (very questionable plot direction). Of the two, I believe the former is quite a bit more likely.

#29
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Actually, scratch that an armada will probably crash with all the ship debris. So unless there is a way to handle that, they are still untouchable post ME2

Apparently there is. If you turn over the base, you see a bunch of Cerberus ships show up at it. No debris, no IFF, ummm...

#30
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Actually, scratch that an armada will probably crash with all the ship debris. So unless there is a way to handle that, they are still untouchable post ME2

Apparently there is. If you turn over the base, you see a bunch of Cerberus ships show up at it. No debris, no IFF, ummm...


I had always assumed that after the suicide mission IDI was able to replicate the IFF for Cerberus. Of course, that raises a whole slew of issues by itself - namely, if it's possible to replicate the IFF what sense does it make to immediately hook it up to your ship and rush through alone? Cerberus has resources - send through a probe and see what's there, perhaps, or send a ****ing fleet. Perhaps I could buy that course of action if there were some legitimately believable time constraint which forced immediate action, but there really isn't, especially given how apparently weak the Collectors appear to be (as I've gone over in all my previous posts).

#31
Orogun01

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Actually, scratch that an armada will probably crash with all the ship debris. So unless there is a way to handle that, they are still untouchable post ME2

Apparently there is. If you turn over the base, you see a bunch of Cerberus ships show up at it. No debris, no IFF, ummm...


I had always assumed that after the suicide mission IDI was able to replicate the IFF for Cerberus. Of course, that raises a whole slew of issues by itself - namely, if it's possible to replicate the IFF what sense does it make to immediately hook it up to your ship and rush through alone? Cerberus has resources - send through a probe and see what's there, perhaps, or send a ****ing fleet. Perhaps I could buy that course of action if there were some legitimately believable time constraint which forced immediate action, but there really isn't, especially given how apparently weak the Collectors appear to be (as I've gone over in all my previous posts).

Or..the Cerberus ships showed up because panning away shots showing the might of the empire reinforce the badassness of whoever rules them.
This just seems like an aesthetic choice and not a conceptual one.

Although this issue with the IFF does raise the question to why they sent just one ship, so I will say that BW dropped the ball on that ending.

#32
greylord

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Answered that previously...

Should i repeat?

Edit: Actually, I'll spell it out. It's due to the Hollywood Hero syndrome. This is different then a plot hole, it's to prove how bad arse a hero someone in the story is. For example, in the first ME, no matter how long you dilly dally, no matter how long you postpone going someplace, you always seem to be in time to suceed in your mission to key areas. Liara seem to be able to wait 100 years at the rate you go if you desire and you can still rescue her just in time as the Geth start to close in. You can still save the colony. Is this a plothole? No...it's intended. It's shows that yes you are cutting it close (no matter how close it really should be, similar to the rubberband effect in race games...no matter how far ahead you get, they'll always rebound to be right on your tail...and vice versa), whilst in truth because of gameplay concerns that it would really stink to have you fail right at that point, it's impossible to fail. So they write in that you could have failed, you are supposed to have that feeling that you almost did...but because you are such an awesome character you suceeded JUST IN TIME!

The Normandy almost took out a Reaper which ravaged an entire fleet. It shot the Reaper right through and just about brought it down! So why is it so easy to be destroyed when it's established just how badass Joker is in the first ME? To show just how bad ass the Collectors are. No, they aren't a Reaper, they can't take on a colony with a full defense spectrum up (which has several times the firepower of a Cruiser or Battleship), but against an unarmed one...they sure can take it out without anyone knowing the better. They can take out the best pilot and best ship in the fleet even!!! (Which the Normandy basically became in ME1 since it seemingly was the only ship that could evade a Reaper's blast at close range and then blast the Reaper in return).

So we already know the Collectors are somewhat powerful...we expect that. The Normandy when it goes through is purposefully scripted to barely make it past the Collector ship that just came out (and probably didn't expect to see the Normandy there in the first place, remember, you are notified that those inside never expected anyone to make it through the relay, and they really don't have any outward sensors to detect that you even crashed into them) and no matter how well you've prepared, upgraded, or anything else...you'll crash onto the Collector base. It's for the same reason...to show you just how close that really was! Whew...you just made it.

They don't want to kill you outright there...that would be gripe city. So many players would start calling it the worst game ever if that was possible and stop playing in disgust. Instead they give you that illusion. You already know how tough these Collector ships are...so of course you just barely made it. If you've only played once...even if you upgraded...you will hopefully think you just barely made it...even if you did all the upgrades...because that's just how tough it was...

Or that's how they want you to feel. It's scripted because that's how it has to be for the game to work out without smashing you to smithereens.

Other examples for you to relate would be...the last star trek movie. You have this gigantic ship that tears apart a Federation ship. Later it totals a Klingon Fleet, and if that wasn't enough goes on and destroys the entire Federation Fleet!!! It does this in less time than it takes for the pilot to realize that his warp was still set in "park". This establishes how bad arse this Rogue Romulan ship is. So how is it that the Enterprise even lasts a few minutes without going into complete oblivion!?

To show how bad arse Captain Kirk is. He's awesome enough to survive this ship that blows up entire fleets without even getting crippled. He then proceeds to destroy said ship.

Another example. In Empire Strikes Back the Imperial Fleet defeats and entire Rebel base. That fleet, the entire fleet, then goes and chases one ship. We already know how bad arse the Empire and this particular fleet is. How is it that one ship can evade it?

To show just how bad arse a pilot Han Solo is. He's awesome enough to outfly every pilot, outwit every Imperial commander, and out do this entire fleet which just defeated the entirety of his friends Rebel forces in a base.

Same goes for the end of ME2...but more with a Solo end (Solo evades the fleet, but eventually things catch up with him). Joker is shown to actually be one darn badarse pilot, and Shep is considered one bad arse Commander...but not quite so awesome as to not crash into the Collector base...but then that had to happen anyways to add to the dramatic end of the entire game and to add that...Whew...we barely made it here, we could die at anytime to the entire episode (which dying is actually a pretty hard preposition to tell the truth...in that I mean getting to the Shep is Dead ending where he is undeniably dead and everything fails).

As for the Collector Threat...who thinks they are a threat? TIM doesn't.

In fact, the only that really takes them as a threat (correctly I might add, because Shep is just that awesome...or you're supposed to think that...because hey...he's you and of course, YOU'RE AWESOME!!!) is Shepard.

Jacob probably also considers them a threat...but not for the right reasons.

Miranda possibly.

Kelly and the rest of the crew might.

But not TIM. His goal isn't to stop the Collectors. He tells Shep what he needs Shep to know to get Shep to take down the Collector base...INTACT. TIM doesn't want it blasted to shreds in a fleet battle, and he probably realizes he doesn't have enough forces to take it by force personally without probably destroying much of what he wants.. His best hope is to get an elite team in there to plant a bomb and eradicate the inhabitants so he...TIM, can then get the technology inside.

That's his goal. It's always been his goal. If you are Shep and you trust TIM and Cerebus...then you'll be fooled into thinking exactly what TIM wants you to think...and when you hand the base over to him even your companions are going to start questioning your actions. Shep has one impossible mission, get an enemy base completely intact....no real battle damage, no real destruction...no pitched battles, no massive loss of resources (outside of Shep and the Normandy 2) to do so.

That's what TIM is after...and hence to send in the battleforces in a pitched battle probably would damage or even destroy the thing he wants most.

The problem is I expect he'll go there and either fulfill whatever he wants to fulfill...OR

Be mind twisted to worship the Reapers...OR

If you realized he was merely feeding you misinformation (without realizing that they were a REAL threat, especially the Reaper they were making...Thanks Shep for stopping that one...you awesome hero, you!) to basically get you to do what he wanted...and blew up the very thing he was after...

I expect he has a grudge to settle with you next time he sees you...and quite possibly may want to kill you...if it doesn't interfere with his plans too much (afterall, he does have places to go and things to do).

That's what TIM was after the entire game...hopefully I didn't just ruin the game for someone who hasn't finished it yet..but then I gather many people didn't catch onto that little item anyways.

Edited by greylord, 07 February 2012 - 11:15 PM.


#33
Zoraptor

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the girl in that picture looks really freakish. why is one arm looking like linguini and the other super muscular? what is wrong with her cheek bones? she looks like she got in a fight with a bee hive.

The combo of Bioware, 360 and UE3 made Yvonne StraHOTski look a bit peculiar. What hope for a mere mortal?

#34
Oblarg

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It's due to the Hollywood Hero syndrome. This is different then a plot hole, it's to prove how bad arse a hero someone in the story is.


I think you're missing my point. My point is not that the Normandy is inordinately powerful. My point is that the collectors are a non-threat.

The Normandy almost took out a Reaper which ravaged an entire fleet. It shot the Reaper right through and just about brought it down!


That was cinematics - the game makes it pretty clear the entire Alliance fleet is what kills the reaper, not the Normandy itself.

No, they aren't a Reaper, they can't take on a colony with a full defense spectrum up (which has several times the firepower of a Cruiser or Battleship), but against an unarmed one...they sure can take it out without anyone knowing the better.


That's my very point - the Collectors are not a serious threat to the system alliance. They could never do anything more than taking fringe colonies, despite the fact that at several points Shepard & Co. make it clear that they believe the Collectors would need to target Earth (or at the very least some larger worlds) to accomplish their goal. Now, whether this is a plot hole or simply writing every character as a moron depends on what you think BioWare's intentions were, but I personally lean towards the former. There's no way around the fact that the Collectors could never accomplish what Shepard and his team believe their goal to be, though.

#35
mr insomniac

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Personally, I'm really looking forward to ME3. I thoroughly enjoyed the first two, despite their flaws. In a way, I kinda like that people are still arguing about the same crap they argued about a year or so ago, as I've tried to stay away from too many ME3 details. From what little I have seen, I have no reason to doubt enjoying the concluding chapter.

#36
Raithe

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Does it really matter whether or not the Collectors could have successfully attacked Earth? They showed they were quite capable of hitting the fringe/colony worlds, and would keep doing so. That's still a rather large swathe of humanity, and I'm pretty sure that Shephard and co were quite frantic over that alone. I mean, remember overhearing some of the crew talking. They had family in those colonies, which is one reason some of them were so motivated.

The fact that human colonies were getting disapeared like that was also having political knock-on effects with the Alliance. They were getting stressed the Council was ignoring the issue, and the other races would see it as Alliance weakness and maneuver for more political benefits. The problem of what the Collectors were doing needed to be solved regardless of whether they could have mounted a successful threat against Earth or not.

You've been brought back from the dead after two years, you get shown this pattern of attacks and destroyed colonies. You get given data about a mysterious, race that seems to have very advanced tech. And then you find out that the Collectors were the very people that blew up the Normandy in the first place.

You go talk to Anderson and the Council, and they pretty much ignore you and tell you that your visions of Protheans and Reapers from the first game aren't real and they don't believe you. Anderson believes you, but can't actually help you in any real manner. Then later you find out he wasn't sure he could trust you and sent a member of your old crew out "undercover" to find out if Cerberus was behind the missing colonies.. The only people willing to give you resources to look into and potentially deal with the problem are a group you don't like and can't really trust. What are you going to do, walk away and ignore the situation? Or use the resources you can and prepare a backup plan?

At what point did Shephard and Co know that they only had the one ship? Sure, they encountered the same ship several times, but for all they knew, the Collectors might have had a full armada at their home of origin. Until they had definite knowledge, they have to act as if there might be a big fleet and a serious threat there...

It would be like a certain renegade Spectre deciding that the Alliance only had one ship because he only saw the Normandy turn up at all the places he went to.... :shifty:

#37
BobSmith101

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ME2 lacked the wow factor of ME. It's kind of like when you compare FO3 and FO:NV ,only in the case of NV you have a much deeper and involving story and characters to make up for it. In ME2 you have a series of sub quests and very few plot locations. All the best characters were throwbacks to ME.
Of course ME had it's flaws too,number 1 being it was ridiculously short.It's just that they were easier to overlook because it was shiny and different. Luckily for me I like the ME game system so that means the characters,story,plot is less important to my enjoyment of the game.

As long as the game system remains playable I'm happy. I think like a hollywood blockbuster you get more enjoyment if you just let the plot wash over you and don't examine it too closely.

#38
kirottu

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Ok, what part of ME1 and ME2 are in conflict. Again, a simple blanket statement won't be accepted. :p

Well, mentioned Reaper change.
"We hate organics, we kill all life. Machines are supreme. All organic life must die"
"..."
"Yeah, not really. We turned them into us, we're part organic. Instead of killing we enslaved them. Also we want to make a robot our of you, since we're not supreme at all..."
Sheppard; "Issues much?"


Considering that reapers made keepers, which was mentioned in ME1, I don't think there's any kind conflict about them making collectors and enslaving them or reapers enslaving organics in general. They are enslaving organics, because they hate them. Reapers use organics to better themselves. They harvest majority of organics and leave some behind to complete a task or two.

I see no conflict in this between ME1 and ME2.

"We need to use the relay to get here, otherwise it would take soooooo much time..."
"You know, about still in your life-time, apparently. I've waited thousands of years. I cannot wait 10 longer. We cannot wait 10 longer. You made us..."


The relay was for strategic purpose. The whole thing about how proteans fell, you know, taking down the Citadel in one swoop stuff, the reason why keepers were made... Time was a just a slight bonus if anything.

Again, no conflict between ME1 and ME2.

Then there's Cerberus getting some major do-over. The Council dissaproving the Reapers when it actually attacked the Citadel. Sovereign being the only... wait, there's a defect one here too.


TIM was part of different sect of Cerberus than the ones Shepard met in ME1. While they have same goals, they have different ways to achieve them.

Again, no conflict between ME1 and ME2.

The Council dissaproving the Reapers when it actually attacked the Citadel. Sovereign being the only... wait, there's a defect one here too.


Council never believed in reapers in ME1. While it is stupid, there's no conflict in this between ME1 and ME2.

What I took from your post was that every time ME2 did something you deemed silly or whatever you put fingers in your ears and went "naa naa naa I can't hear you" when Bio explained the silly thing.

#39
BobSmith101

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In ME the relay is key to the Reaper plan.
Here is the problem with the logic between ME and ME2. If the Reapers are immortal and not in any particular rush the citadel becomes completely pointless. In ME the Citadel allows the Reapers to jump in take out the C&C and cut gate travel. Then mop up system by system at leasure. This strongly implies they can't win in a head to head battle.
It's clear the Proteans are more advanced that the current occupiers , but the Reapers have just flown en masse through normal space not taking them much longer than it would have to come through the relay and taken out Earth without much effort.

That makes the whole central premise of ME a bit silly in retrospect and the events of ME rather pointless.

As I said in the other post it's better if you just sit back enjoy the show and don't think too deeply about it.

#40
Raithe

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TIM was part of different sect of Cerberus than the ones Shepard met in ME1. While they have same goals, they have different ways to achieve them.

Again, no conflict between ME1 and ME2.


To be fair to the detractors, TIM is the ultimate, head honcho leader dude for Cerberus. He set it up, he organised it, he structured it. And he's shown he's perfectly willing to get involved in really dirty things if it meets his "goals" of improving humanity.

Sure, there are a few examples of how they had occasional "rogue" elements go further then even he had planned - case in point, Jack and that whole "School" have elements that seem to suggest that they were keeping secrets from TIM about what they were doing.

And TIM pretty much handwaves the elements of Cerberus that were involved in ME1 and testing things on Alliance soldiers resulting in their. But you don't really get much that states that that research group was totally rogue. If I recall, Miranda mentions them as something like a fringe element, but my memory isn't being specific about it so I could be wrong.

As for killing off the Admiral, well, TIM runs Cerberus with a strict hand on security consciousness. So if some Admiral started turning over rocks and digging in ways that might endage some operations.. I can see him easily arranging a death. Although to be fair, TIM seems more like the type who would set it up as some form of "accident" that didn't look too suspicious. As compared to an obvious kidnap/death thing.




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