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SW: The Old Republic Part 3


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#421
Gromnir

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I unsubbed a few days ago. The endgame content and looking-for-group mechanic was killing me to death. Still have 25 days left on my subscription.


no doubt Gromnir is in a minority, but we just don't "get" the post-50 gameplay. yeah, the first time you successful do ev, or the other operation, it is kinda fun... get 8-16 people working together is new and unlike the flashpoints or heroics one has done earlier in the game. sadly the operations and hm flashpoints is frequently beatable not through coordinated strategy, but 'cause o' tricks. boss X is unkillable once he hits 15% health... needs to be bounced off a ledge with a coordinated double knockback. uh... ok. healer gets pulled and insta-killed... unless he stands outside building near a crack in the wall of the structure. stoopid. even so, the first couple times you run hm flaspoints and operations, they can be entertaining, but what do you do afterwards? grind dailies for credits? huttball?

we cancelled our subscription 'cause we didn't see no point after we finished a level 50 character, and got pretty far with a second. second character was far too similar to the first to make it worth continuing.

so, what were we missing?

HA! Good Fun!

#422
Raithe

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Hm, I have to say play style, story and atmosphere are pretty different between the Sith Inquisitor, Smuggler, Jedi Knight and Bounty Hunter..

#423
Calax

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So, did this end up being the WoW killer everyone said it would be? Will WoW now slip into the dustbin of MMORPG history with ToR standing over its corpse like a triumphant gladiator?

It could have been if bioware hadn't botched a few things (customer service is HORRIBLE , and there were some serious issues with the release)

#424
Gromnir

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Hm, I have to say play style, story and atmosphere are pretty different between the Sith Inquisitor, Smuggler, Jedi Knight and Bounty Hunter..


having played an inquisitor (sorcerer-healer) to 50, a bounty hunter (merc-dps) to 25, and a knight (guardian-tank) to 45, am having had a much different impression. the story aspects of each class involve only an extreme small % of total gameplay time and isamazing how much the biowarians recycled to does s'posed unique story. am not gonna address "style" or "atmosphere." is just too vague. regardless, is not genuine relevant to our query as we were wondering 'bout post 50. playing all the different classes is one way some folks might be able to keeps their interest in the game, but am wondering about the post 50 draw of swtor.

any ideas? am honestly curious. we seen some folks playing same characters after they hit 50 for hours each and every day, and we not get it. hurl told us that we didnt understand mmo gameplay-- game doesnt end at 50, says hurl. ok, but for the life of us, we dont see the draw post 50.

HA! Good Fun!

#425
Cantousent

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For some people, the social aspect of the game keeps them going. This is how casual players who don't have a chance in hell of being useful in raids enjoy the game. They can come on and kabitz and, if they decide they want to do a little raiding, a strong group can carry them. I know a lot of folks who enjoy this style of play past level max.

Others like helping newbies in a guild do quests or achieve goals.

There are folks who enjoy crafting or gathering and the prospect of these things keeps them interested.

For me, I only wanted better gear and more trophies. That might sound sad and pathetic to some folks. Nevertheless, to be perfectly candid, that's what I wanted. I enjoyed doing end game game raids, progressing through end bosses, and getting better gear. I think Humanoid somewhere up above made the same observation I'm going to make now. ...Or, more appropriately, I'm going to agree with him wholeheartedly. I hate dealing with end game because after you've made your kick-ass healer and have her decked out with stuff and You've finally made something of her, the xpac comes out and you're stuck moving ahead. That could be good, right? Not really. You end up grinding grinding GRINDING for rep, doing the same sorts of daily quests, jumping through the same hoops, trying to keep a group of often volatile, egocentric, and vain team-mates together, and then filling in the spots when folks drop out for various reasons. For my part, I have never fought with folks about gear, but I've seen more people leave successful groups because they deserved first dibs than any other single reason. At the end of all that, I just coulnd't stomach the thought of playing a new MMORPG.

Hurlie had good advice, sure. Play for the other things and don't get stuck on gear and prestige. Sadly, that's not what I want. I have never seen an MMORPG that was as good at the other RPG aspects as a good single or lan based RPG. Once I got sufficiently jaded, it was all over for a while. It's been several months since I've played one and, frankly, I'm glad raiding isn't sucking up every bit of free time I have any longer. That goes double for the little lady.

On a different topic, I started out fairly positive about ToR, but as time went by and folks kept spitting vitriol at WoW and acting ilke, based on the Star Wars license, ToR would clean house, I found myself quietly rooting against it. I loved Star Wars when I first saw it in theaters in... 1977? I still have nostalgic feelings about the franchise but, for all of its considerable influence in pioneering successful Sci-Fi cinema, I don't think I'd hold it in the same esteem if it came out now. I love the fact that Star Wars made Sci-Fi truly cool, but that's no reason to buy a game based solely on the license.

#426
Gfted1

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I think Cant describes it pretty well. For me, end game raiding in WoW is to fight the hardest bosses and acquire the best gear. And Im a good treadmill rat and even like when xpac's come out so I get start working on the next new bling.

#427
Malcador

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http://youtu.be/fDvfWn26cY0


If anyone still cares :p

Edited by Malcador, 04 April 2012 - 06:34 AM.


#428
Nepenthe

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http://youtu.be/fDvfWn26cY0


If anyone still cares :p

Somewhat, I'm probably starting again in a week or two, even if I need to get my grossly misshapen body back into the lean mean killing machine I was. :p

#429
Raithe

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I'm still pushing along. Although Belsavis is a bit of a drag to push through with my Smuggler. I like the concept, but something about that planet doesn't really click right for me.

#430
Azure79

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So are the class stories good enough by themselves to warrant a play through? I'm not interested in raiding or other mmo activities. I just want a good story in the SW universe. Can your choices affect the outcome of the story? For example a Jedi knight making evil choices will eventually fall to the dark side or vice versa with a sith.



#431
Baeus

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So are the class stories good enough by themselves to warrant a play through? I'm not interested in raiding or other mmo activities. I just want a good story in the SW universe. Can your choices affect the outcome of the story? For example a Jedi knight making evil choices will eventually fall to the dark side or vice versa with a sith.


It depends on the class you're playing, their plots were written by different people who put varying levels of effort into the choice and consequence part. The Imperial Agent and Sith Warrior stories are pretty good with regards to that, although they never reach the level of say Witcher 2... and those two classes aren't really all that fun to play solo in my opinion. Like most rpgs you're still going down the same path with slightly different dialogue. You don't swap factions by being a dark jedi or a light sith or anything, but there are references to your alignment (especially in the jedi knight ending) and cutscenes and fights can be different or even skippable depending on choices.

The class story is only a fairly small part of the game though. Most of your time will be spent dealing with common quests open to every class in your faction, and those have rather less reactivity.

Still, if you want to treat it as a single player game that just happens to have a bunch of other people in it messing with your quests, I'd still consider it worth a try.

Edited by Baeus, 09 April 2012 - 02:37 AM.


#432
Baeus

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Doubleposted for some silly reason.

Edited by Baeus, 09 April 2012 - 02:46 AM.


#433
Humanoid

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There are choices unlike other MMOs, but the consequences are immediate and pretty much just a number in your light/dark meter - e.g. a quest has you deliver an item to NPC A, then NPC B gives you an alternate offer for delivering the same item to him instead. In the 15 levels I've played, none of those decisions came back in any way (no idea if they might later on given I only played for the trial weekend but if feels unlikely). That's about as extreme as the C&C got in my time with it, and they were exceptions - mostly the choices were just Mass Effect-esque nice vs jerk response as you complete the quests.

That's not to say it's not a reasonable motivator - as a smuggler the class questline drove the character pretty well with trying to get your ship back and get back at the guy who stole it (who naturally has cutscene immunity every time you encounter him).

That said, I also found the combat unsatisfying and generally a chore - mowing down pack after pack of three-to-four generic thugs to get to a generic computer console to click on - repeat ad nauseam. The Gunslinger subclass feels like trying to shoehorn cover-based combat into an engine utterly unsuited to it, and the scoundrel felt like a melee class who only used guns instead of melee weapons because the silly Star Wars setting isn't accommodating to melee classes who aren't force users.

Didn't have the energy to try another class during the trial - I made the mistake of spreading my effort back in WoW into sampling basically every class - but if I ever got the full game it'd be with something else that feels less awkward.

#434
Baeus

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To be fair, the first 15 levels go really fast and don't get you far in the game or story, they're just the prologue, like most MMOs, you get the first 10 levels faster than the last 1. Some of your early choices do come back later though.

Agree about the non-force melee classes though. To shoehorn melee and other MMO conventions into the game, they handwave silly stuff like guns that can suddenly only shoot 10 yards when they could shoot 30 with the last attack, or making backhanding someone with your fist somehow do more damage than stabbing them with your lightsaber.

Edited by Baeus, 09 April 2012 - 03:09 AM.


#435
Raithe

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One of the ways they've tried balancing it is giving each class a different form of hm, "energy" or whathave you to actually use their attacks. It does tend to be more mood/atmospheric then really game system difference..

Every class has one basic attack that doesn't "cost" anything.
But Jedi Knights and Sith Warriors need to build up "force" by using certain attacks, which then let them use more "impressive" abilities which use up that force.
Sith Inquisitors and Jedi Consulars have a regenerating pool of Force points that get drained by their use.
Bounty Hunters build up "heat" as they use their attacks, and then have to vent it off if it gets too high before they can use abilities again..
Smugglers have an energy pool that gets used up..

But I'd certainly say the atmosphere and playstyle of the class stories can feel quite different. Sure the world quests are the same, but the dialogue and style of responses from people during them are toned to recognise the classes and react a wee bit differently. Sith Assassin tends to be dark and surrounded by treachery , not so much happiness and joy... The Smuggler has that general light-hearted swashbuckleryness to it all (and is amazingly flirt-tastic)... The Jedi Knight tries for that ..zen Paladin adventurer approach (but I've only done a little of that storyline so far so I can't really say).. and the Bounty Hunter starts off with a competitive revenge streak going..

#436
Humanoid

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I have to admit TOR has somewhat of an unfair handicap when I compare it to its competitors in that I actively dislike the Star Wars setting, and issues like the above "lightsabres or bust" approach do nothing to help that perception. In the end, the game would have to end up the best option despite the setting for me to even consider picking it up, and there's no real sign of that happening.

Not having fun with my preferred CRPG class equivalent because of the setting's conventions is one of the first nails in the coffin for me, not insurmountable an issue, but then I look at the alternatives - unless I want to play a Jedi/Sith (which I absolutely do not want to do), I don't see anything else worth trying even if the trial weren't time restricted.

It's not like I like any of the other attempted MMO settings either - Warcraft, Star Trek, LoTR, Conan - my opinion of them ranges from apathy at best to mild condecension, but it's a handicap nonetheless.

#437
Baeus

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I will say this though, sometimes we have to blame ourselves when it comes to a lack of C&C. In the beta builds, one of the companions would betray a certain class during their story (gonna be vague here to avoid spoilers). You had the option to get rid of them for that betrayal. Of course, players whined that they were then deprived of that companion's (rather useful) set of abilities. Companions don't play a part in pvp or endgame pve which are the parts where balance is important, but Bioware still gave in to the whining, removed the options to dismiss/kill them and forced us to take said companion back after they've betrayed you to a hated enemy and tried to kill you, even if you're playing the most evil or unforgiving character imaginable.

#438
Humanoid

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More elegant possibly would be having to choose companions in the first place instead of everyone of a given class getting the identical set of 5 cloned companions. Not a fan of that whole mechanic in general but I can see the design reasoning for it, allows a lot of shortcuts in balancing content. Would I prefer everything be soloable lone wolf style? Sure, but it's a hard thing to do.

#439
Gfted1

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So are the class stories good enough by themselves to warrant a play through? I'm not interested in raiding or other mmo activities. I just want a good story in the SW universe. Can your choices affect the outcome of the story? For example a Jedi knight making evil choices will eventually fall to the dark side or vice versa with a sith.


I played a Sith Inquisitor and it was worth the ride. C & C is pretty much an illusion used to change your physical appearance but you do need to focus on being "evil" or "good" to get the best gear respectively. Theres no way to break the game or affect an outcome as far as I saw. The same companions will join you regardless of your actions or how you treat them specifically. The calss story is "ok" but you will need the grindy parts of an MMO to get to the end.

Spoiler


#440
Hurlshot

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I started a new character on an RP-PVP server last night. It was a very active server, with what seems like a good community. It is still too early to tell, but I think this might help me stay more engaged in the game.

I do think that buying the game and playing for a month just to experience the story is worth it. I recommend the Sith Inquisitor and the Republican Trooper, myself.




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