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The boss fights in this game are ****ing impossible


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#21
unskilled-

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Bad title.

Swearing doesn't help and it's not impossible.

But i can agree to you to some extent.

Talking about Fallout(I'm sure you're talking about first two ones but 3rd one is closer to AP as design) haven't you gone in small arms skills in third game? Did it make you think like "Oh i can't convince super mutants not to attack me by talking... This game is ****ing ****!"

You can use some speech skills which are availible in renegade/paragorn in Mass Effect but again boss fights are fights after all, even in there. And in AP you can use dossier information on people while talking or again choose to spare or execute but boss fights are boss fights.

It's not all about Obsidian or Alpha Protocol or any other game really, it's the state of whole sector(aka I r h3ro, i r l33t l0lz)

Developers in RPG or MMO sector generally thought they'd reach to a smaller but dedicated player base since start. But since WoW's success on masses they thought it might be better idea to influence casuals while don't caring much about hardcore or power or dedicated player base.(Or let's say concentrating on casuals since they're everywhere... I mean millions of people play WoW while "not so carebear friendly" games only reach to a few thousand sales) Even if developers would care distributers wouldn't allow them because money is important in life eh?

So that's when instead of supporting/using or thinking about different approaches to gameplay they decided to give people what they want. Players generally want instant glories, feel like a hero, want to "pew-pew" whole way around, want to be "leet", instant/fast paced gameplay which rewards them with no real reason at all... So why wasting resources that only for a few people while you can please a larger audience in other way?(Money, distributor's greed or it can be about even reviews... Just check how many adventures released this year and also check the same thing about FPS's. Not many people like talking, investigating etc but shooting them in the face! Sad but true =/)

It always works in same way in nowaday's games(excluding good old Fallout I-II etc since it's sad but their golden times has gone) so why choosing AP to rant about?

PS : Btw gameplay wise... i'm glad that AP isn't so "casual housewife" friendly that you need to aim at least. Too bad Obsidian gets flamed by "poor combat mechanics" because of that :lol:


Just because the majority of gamers are quick-twitched insta-reward types doesn't mean every single publisher and game developer is going to pander to them. In as much as they are the fastest growing and easiest to please crowd, does not mean that the other gamers who require a more deft touch are disappearing or suddenly deciding that "simple" games are for them.

#22
Tigranes

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LH000:

Sounds like you were well on your way to figuring out how to beeat him, but gave up.

(1) You can move around even with the first level of SO. You just need to crouch. (Not sure if game descriptions sound different).
(2) You don't need to run with Shadow Operative to be able to use it to beat Brayko. Just time it so that you use it when he's near, then just directly walk by him to get behind him. What's the first level of SO? 5 seconds? Now that would be pretty hard, but it sounds like you have a bit more than that (perks also increase SO time).
(3) I can imagine stuttering makes everything harder. I played NWN2 with 5-10fps, so I'm no stranger to that, and it sucks. Surely that has no bearing on whether Brayko is badly designed, though.

Your build still should be able to beat him with the kind of tactics I described. Hell, if you want, give me the savegame if you have one - I can try and see.

#23
edgarcuk

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Using pistols in a stealth build is not wrong, in fact it is quite handy because there are enemies on higher ground and towers that they are better to take down... with tranqs... negating the use of pistols is limiting your possibilities and making things harder but if you want to... well, what can be done?

I've done 5 playthrou's, 4 in hard and I have been killed once by Brayko, fast and "easy" strategy:

1. Get Brilliance, SO, Chainshot, best pistol, steel core ammo and flashbangs
2. Just starting the battle, take cover, a couple of headshots, chain shot while he's on stage.
3. Brayko get coked, use brilliance, then headshots while he's coming
4. Flashbang by Brayko, move behind one of the columns, enemies coming, flashbang them, take them down
5. Bryko in coke mode, use SO, at that time, if you've got the perks, chainshot should be ready if not, hide...
6. Chainshot ready, left cover, Brayko coming for you and chainshot him and tada!, Brayko is finito....

Result: Brayko defeated, 3 minutes of battle, level of frustration=0....

Do it the hard way, i.e. your way... level of frustration=200%...

If you decide to make your playthrou hard and annoying, that's your decision... and believe it or not, that is part of the game design, if you want to come across a less difficult fight, the option is there...

I would say, it is a good game design since the game gives you the option to do it hard or easy... as I agree the design forces you to face a boss fight, most of the games do the same, why AP is wrong, because you cannot silently take down a boss?... well, that's why they are bosses, they meant to be hard to kill...

#24
LH000

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LH000:

Sounds like you were well on your way to figuring out how to beeat him, but gave up.

(1) You can move around even with the first level of SO. You just need to crouch. (Not sure if game descriptions sound different).
(2) You don't need to run with Shadow Operative to be able to use it to beat Brayko. Just time it so that you use it when he's near, then just directly walk by him to get behind him. What's the first level of SO? 5 seconds? Now that would be pretty hard, but it sounds like you have a bit more than that (perks also increase SO time).
(3) I can imagine stuttering makes everything harder. I played NWN2 with 5-10fps, so I'm no stranger to that, and it sucks. Surely that has no bearing on whether Brayko is badly designed, though.

Your build still should be able to beat him with the kind of tactics I described. Hell, if you want, give me the savegame if you have one - I can try and see.


(1) I had suspicion that one can move even with lvl1 SO, as once I moved a little and invisibilty did't cancel - I thought that it was most probably a glitch or that there is some kind of tolerance to accidental pressing of movement key - that is why I (think I) didn't write that I'm sure I know how it works in my previous post. Anyway, thanks for info, I'll surely try it when I'll get back to the game.
About description - I'm nearly sure that there is stated that one cannot move; but I play localized version , so maybe description was correct in some previous game build and they forgot to change it.
(3) In this location shuttering is occuring mostly when closing stage (or at least near those stairs up) - slightest mouse movement cause drastic change of direction which (together with characterics of that place) enables Brayko to get close enough to attack me. I even tryed to press ESC right before stairs to let a map to load , but wasn't succesfull.

And yes, you are right that technical problem have (although it's matter of definition) nothing to do with bad design, that is why I said that the (part of the) game is "done wrong".

BTW, this is characteristic for my whole experience with the game. I can (and do) tolerate those little problems like (maybe) bad programming and some rather unwise (this is of course subjective comment) design decisions separately, but there were points in the game where I encountered them more at once combined in a "terrific" manner, which caused rapid decrease in "game enjoynment" .

#25
Scarvet

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(1) I had suspicion that one can move even with lvl1 SO, as once I moved a little and invisibilty did't cancel - I thought that it was most probably a glitch or that there is some kind of tolerance to accidental pressing of movement key - that is why I (think I) didn't write that I'm sure I know how it works in my previous post. Anyway, thanks for info, I'll surely try it when I'll get back to the game.
About description - I'm nearly sure that there is stated that one cannot move; but I play localized version , so maybe description was correct in some previous game build and they forgot to change it.
(3) In this location shuttering is occuring mostly when closing stage (or at least near those stairs up) - slightest mouse movement cause drastic change of direction which (together with characterics of that place) enables Brayko to get close enough to attack me. I even tryed to press ESC right before stairs to let a map to load , but wasn't succesfull.

BTW, this is characteristic for my whole experience with the game. I can (and do) tolerate those little problems like (maybe) bad programming and some rather unwise (this is of course subjective comment) design decisions separately, but there were points in the game where I encountered them more at once combined in a "terrific" manner, which caused rapid decrease in "game enjoynment" .

Like unskilled- said: This game isn't design to be easy.

In fact, judging by the shooting system, this game is design to be 'harder' to play.

And if you are complaining about having trouble fighting Brayko in Hard, that's why the difficulty is call 'Hard'

And if you don't like trial and error with video games, don't play any, all of them need some degree of it, including Tetris

#26
unskilled-

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(1) I had suspicion that one can move even with lvl1 SO, as once I moved a little and invisibilty did't cancel - I thought that it was most probably a glitch or that there is some kind of tolerance to accidental pressing of movement key - that is why I (think I) didn't write that I'm sure I know how it works in my previous post. Anyway, thanks for info, I'll surely try it when I'll get back to the game.
About description - I'm nearly sure that there is stated that one cannot move; but I play localized version , so maybe description was correct in some previous game build and they forgot to change it.
(3) In this location shuttering is occuring mostly when closing stage (or at least near those stairs up) - slightest mouse movement cause drastic change of direction which (together with characterics of that place) enables Brayko to get close enough to attack me. I even tryed to press ESC right before stairs to let a map to load , but wasn't succesfull.

BTW, this is characteristic for my whole experience with the game. I can (and do) tolerate those little problems like (maybe) bad programming and some rather unwise (this is of course subjective comment) design decisions separately, but there were points in the game where I encountered them more at once combined in a "terrific" manner, which caused rapid decrease in "game enjoynment" .

Like unskilled- said: This game isn't design to be easy.

In fact, judging by the shooting system, this game is design to be 'harder' to play.

And if you are complaining about having trouble fighting Brayko in Hard, that's why the difficulty is call 'Hard'

And if you don't like trial and error with video games, don't play any, all of them need some degree of it, including Tetris


No, the whole problem is that hard mode essentially tells you "your stealth build is useless in a boss fight. If you want to get past them without reloading 50 billion times and tearing your hair out, go with this build..".

Hard mode is supposed to make each one of your builds harder to play, not totally wreck them and force you to play in a specific way.

There's a fine line between "challenging" and "unfair". Unfair being you have to play a certain way to beat the boss. Challenging meaning you'd beat the boss, but you would have to use all your skills, talent, alot of ammo, healthkits, etc to beat him. In this game, which is all about choice in how you build and go about things.. that is a real downside.

#27
Scarvet

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The thing is you don't actually need any in game skill learned to beat Brayko.

Like Tigranes said, Stealth build have its own advantage, but may not be useful against every boss. Balance is applied on the game as a whole.

Although I agree that there should be some "innovative" way to beat the bosses rather than a straight fight, like tap in to the stereo system and knock Brayko out with his own sub and fireworks ;)

#28
Archmonarch

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I've beaten Brayko a few times, several on Hard difficulty, including one Hard Recruit run. I tend towards the stealth builds myself, and so the first time I faced him I died a few times while trying to figure out a strategy. The key point of this battle when using a stealth build is play to your strengths. You probably don't have toughness maxed out or the highest endurance/damage resistance armor (as they are noisier), so don't try to take him head on. He'll murder you quite often in this situation, as he is designed for melee. In fact, he's sort of a melee god, what with the speed of his knife attacks. Don't play into a situation where he's at an advantage.

Here's basically what I've done: When I first come into the room and after the battle begins, I immediately go to the large square cover in the middle (I'm already crouching). He may get lucky and occasionally hit you, but in my experience, that is pretty rare. Here, I headshot him a few times until he snorts the coke and gets down off the stage. Then I immediately activate Shadow Operative. If you watch Brayko wander around for a while, you'll notice he has a fairly set pattern of activity; in other words, he has a certain area he patrols continuously so long as he doesn't become aware of you. There are two alcoves on either side: so long as you stay behind the wall opposite of Brayko, he will never see you while wandering through his area. At that point, it's just a matter of Shadow Operative, Chainshot to the head, retreat back to the alcove and either use Brilliance or wait for them to recharge then repeat. On a normal difficulty run, that should take him down in about 3-5 chainshots, depending on your accuracy. Naturally, it will take more on Hard difficulty, but the strategy is equally effective in my experience. But then again Chainshot is basically godmode for AP, so this is the easiest method.

It will be harder if you don't have pistols trained, but I assume you must have some sort of offensive skill, hopefully gadgets as martial arts, while definitely doable, would be much, much harder (a melee attack immediately deactivates shadow operative and makes the enemy aware of you). Assuming gadgets, plant some around the area using shadow operative to take advantage of his pattern. You could also chuck a few at him, I suppose, though this may very well alert him to your position.

#29
TheAssassin

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What I did for Brayko was chip down his health. When on cocaine I ran obviously (note that i used Steve's help :thumbsup:
But instead of just running, I ran and shot at him while on the move. Not accurate or effecient but it worked. Also this my first hub on recruit normal with the bare minium for basic chain shot so yeah.

#30
Jaap

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I was also frustrated with the boss-fights, where pure stealth-builds are almost useless.
Very problematic since the game doesn't "warn" you until you already spent a lot of time in the game with a build which turns out to be almost impossible later on.

If you really want to get this done, your best bet is to do some other missions first (you can start with other safehouse hub before finishing the current one) If I remember correctly there is a side-mission kinda deal that poisons the drugs of mr Rock Star which means the coke hurts him instead of supercharging him. Should be doable then.

#31
Crazy Tuvok

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I gotta say I am confused as hell about the claim that a stealth build makes boss fights *harder*. My next play through is going to be more Rambo, but my first was a stealth/tech/martial arts with some pistol. Frankly I'm worried that w/o this mix bosses will be too hard.

Every boss in the game can be beaten handily with a good stealth build, especially Brayko. It takes a bit of patience and making good use of your skills, but he was 0-lvl frustration boss for me. Use your strengths. This is after all an RPG. Play your character not a shooter (unless that is your character) With SO (either level) and chain shot or well planted grenades every boss is pretty easy. Sis was probably the toughest (given the limited encounter space).

To me this speaks volumes of the excellent design, not the other way around. If you have built a stealth/tech-y guy don't toe up with machine gun toting lunatics, or five goons at once. I considered my stealth build a predator - strike fast from the shadows and return to them quickly, well placed traps, the patient headshot etc. Brayko, Marburg etc were way more frustrated than I ever was during our fights.

I am curious as hell to see what a run-n-gun build will be like.

#32
razgriz_1400

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It's been a while but I have to say is that the key to taking down Brayko (or any of the bosses) is using your strengths to your advantage and adapting if you end up in a bad situation. My first playthrough was as the stealth preset build and while I did get owned at first, I just kept refining my tactics until I found something that works.

The hardest "boss" fight in my estimation is trying to protect Surkov, but that has nothing to do with my build and everything with him being a complete moron; running head-long into weapons fire and not taking cover at all. One time the idiot actually ran TOWARDS the incindiary grenade minefield I'd set up during a shadow op...

#33
Rattaplan

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As much as I like AP, I have to agree with the TC. Boss fights have been implemented poorly in the game. Sure, they are beatable but having to die 10 times or more, before figuring out what to do exactly, isn't good roleplaying and kinda defeats the whole purpose of buying helpful intel. I also think that dying in a good RPG weighs somewhat heavier on me than getting killed in a regular (uninvolving) action game.

It would have been nice to have seen a more flexible approach to the boss fights.

#34
Labadal

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I only really had a problem with the boss in russia on my first playthrough. Every other playthroug, the bosses have been very simple, going down in 1-2 minutes. But I do agree that the boss fight were the weakest part of the game. There were 2 or 3 of them that I emjoyed.

#35
TAP

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Seriously if you don't die 20+ times or more figuring out how to kill a boss in a game,then they made it too easy.
yeah its a boss its supposed to be hard,Go play some old games,rember how f'n hard those were?
There making games way to easy these days IMO

#36
Rattaplan

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Seriously if you don't die 20+ times or more figuring out how to kill a boss in a game,then they made it too easy.
yeah its a boss its supposed to be hard,Go play some old games,rember how f'n hard those were?
There making games way to easy these days IMO

That might be true in a pure action game where save reloading and cheating is factored in by the developers. In a RPG, where you are to roleplay a character and be immersed in the world, it's not a requirement to get confronted and killed by unsuspected "overpowering" bosses, nor does it add much to the fun factor to see all your hard work customizing your character fall flat on its face.

Not saying there shouldn't be tough battles but I'd like a heads up about those and possibly the option to run away from them. Flexibility in a RPG is key, IMO (unlike arcade).

Also, those old games were likely much harder because the technology for creating realistic worlds and characters didn't exist back then. They had to rely on story and rigid arcadish principles for gameplay (or offer turnbased).

#37
thingyt

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My take on the whole boss battles thing.
My first play through I was a stealth/pistols build.
The first minor boss was Sis who I was able to drop with crit pistol shots relatively easily. Against Brayko I ended up trying a number of times before I figured out the beauty of Chain Shot and was able to finally beat him. The all the rest of the boss fights were laughably easy as I had maxed my pistols as high as my level allowed and one chain shot for each and the fight was over instantly.

My second play through I was a stealth/martial arts build.
I again did Moscow first and found Sis to be awfully difficult to finish. Eventually I used incendiary grenades to beat her after she stayed near the edge of the boat behind a counter while I lobbed 3 in there with her (and she didn't/couldn't flee the burn area for whatever reason). Despite a few levels of martial arts she ripped me a new one almost every time I got close and blocked so many of attacks that I could hardly do any damage. Against Brayko I was totally worthless. I tried for a few hours with a hold of different strategies but he blocked so many attacks and between him and his guys I would eventually take too much damage and not be able to heal fully. I ended up leaving and heading to Taipei. In Taipei against Omen Deng I succeeded after only a couple of tries (mostly lucky/unlucky shots that dropped me unexpectedly, and once he used a trap on me that I didn't see). I had enough martial arts skill that I was competitive against him at close range was able to do significant damage thanks to fury's reduced enemy blocking. Going back to take out Brayko ended up really easy because I paid for the laced coke so instead of him getting a boost from his coke runs, he actually took significant damage. If I had just out lasted him he would have died from that alone, although at that point I had a high enough martial arts to actually do some damage to him in hand to hand combat. Marburg was laughably easy because I had such high skills at that point and I could sneak up to him, fury and dropped him without taking any damage at all. The only fight that caused me any trouble after that was Darcy because you can't actually reach him to use my martial arts. I had to get to the sniper rifle and take him out from the other tower, which worked reasonable well after I figured that out.

My guess/feeling on boss fights is that certain builds are more difficult and even nearly impossible without higher skill levels, but because you can just leave and skill up by doing the earlier parts of other cities, it is doable. I didn't know you could do that at first though and was insanely frustrated trying to kill Brayko until I looked on here and realized I could just skip town and come back to it. I tried a host of strategies on this forum to kill Brayko before resorting to leaving town but was unable to make it work. The best I got him down to about 25% health before getting killed.

From a role playing standpoint it seems a tad odd to me that you can just leave town and come back whenever. I feel like some measure of time limitations on missions in specific cities makes more sense, but as a game mechanic to avoid getting too stuck due to difficulty/lack of skills it works OK.

#38
Oblarg

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Play through with maxed martial arts. All boss fights become trivial. I could even almost best a coked-up Brayko in close quarters combat.

#39
Dabu

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If you can't complete bosses and you don't see anything wrong in using bugs in game, use THIS thread.

#40
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On my first playthrough I fought Marburg quite early, having played Rome first. I used mostly a stealth build, having only minimal training in pistols (Chain-Shot lvl 1). I was playing on Hard from the get-go.

Suffice to say, the battle was a nightmare. But as the mod stated on the first page, the game always gives you choices regarding the tackling of a situation, as long as you did not attempt the mission naked. After much trial and error I finally beat him, downing only one of his guards thus stopping him from calling for additional reinforcements.

I am not posting to propose a solution since I am not sure how skilled you are in general (I would propose some sort of careful running and gunning with SMGs, but I don't have all the facts) so I would just like to underline that in RPGs and games that involve stats in general you have to know how to be effective with the abilities that you invest in.

It's not the game's fault that in a scenario where the character is always confronted by gun-totting enemies you chose to go in almost unfit to wield a firearm.

PS. No flame intended, just stating the facts as I see them.




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