43 replies to this topic

[sea]

Rant time.

So basically, first I was stuck on Marburg and now I'm stuck on Brayko, for the same reason: he has a ****-ton of hit points, he has a ****-ton of endurance, he has infinitely respawning henchmen, he can regenerate his endurance at will, and on top of that, he frequently bugs out on me and starts going at super-speed, which literally makes him impossible to defeat - not like I had much chance to begin with.

Here's how it's going down: I've got plenty of grenades, maxed out stealth and sabotage, a little in martial arts, but no skill in guns. I can take out Brayko's endurance with a single grenade, but when it comes to damaging his hit points I'm out of luck. Remote mines and grenades are pretty useless when he's chasing me around with his knife, and there's absolutely no time for me to set up traps for him since I am constantly assaulted by those respawning goons. I go to take them out, and guess what, now he's chasing me with a knife. If I do get him out in the open, I have a few options: try to take pot shots and chip away at his health, spray him in the face with SMGs when he gets tired, or try to take him on in melee and take a huge amount of damage. In most cases, these lead to death. I've managed to get him down to around 40% hit points or so, which takes roughly ten minutes, and anything beyond that is impossible since I simply run out of health.

A smart RPG is one that allows for a multitude of equally-valid play-styles. If I am not good at fighting, I should be able to hack a computer, or plant a bomb, or talk my enemies out of attacking me. Apparently, some designer liked that ****ing song so much that he decided to force the player into one of the most ill-conceived and infuriating boss fights ever made; that's the only explanation I can think of for the game not giving you a reasonable alternative. If the game absolutely has to force a conflict, for the sake of the story (there's no real reason here, I should note), then it is still reasonable to provide certain types of players with options. How come I can't drop the stage lights on Brayko by sabotaging them? Why aren't there sentry turrets I can reprogram? Why not just give him less health if I'm not a very good fighter? At least that would let me beat him! There are a couple of other situations in Alpha Protocol like this, but Marburg was at least defeatable for me. After hours of trying, I still can't beat Brayko.

And no, please don't give me that "you should go to another hub" bull****. I understand that in RPGs, you'll come across enemies that are stronger than you, and that it is necessary to return when you are stronger. However, Alpha Protocol isn't an open-ended game like Fallout, where I can simply come back and try again if I don't think I'm quite ready yet. It is a linear action-RPG, and it is not designed in such a way to facilitate the player grinding for experience - not to mention that to do so would produce a disjointed story. And, frankly, forcing me to play the same mission again, in its entirety, because the people who made the game were out to lunch, is simply not acceptable.

I really enjoy some aspects of Alpha Protocol, but I have to stress just how amazingly infuriating certain parts of it are, especially these boss fights. The game devolves into a janky, poorly-designed mess that's more comical than anything, and when it's not being ridiculously stupid, it's being impossibly difficult. I'm at the point where I feel like I should just stop playing the game. I'd use cheats, but then I'm afraid that the DRM will go insane on me and use up a few more activations. The sad part is that if it wasn't for issues like this, I'd probably have finished the game two or three times over by now.

Edited by sea, 22 June 2010 - 09:08 PM.

[Fallen Ghost]

Just hex edit your save file for 999 advancement points and just max out everything as far as you can. Then use Chain Shot to put 5 or 6 pistol rounds in his skull....this should end the fight right there and get you the next cutscene....if it does not use Brilliance to reset the cooldown timer of Chain Shot and then use it to put another set of pistol rounds in his skull....this should definitely finish the fight.

[Orogun01]

Okay, have you tried a fight of attrition. Basically get yourself some first aids, sabotage should let you milk them for all their worth. Use hand to hand when he's holding the SMGs and keep your distance if he grabs the knife. When his goons appear you will have to do some crowd control, I suggest grenades and focus on Bryako.

@Fallen Ghost: Cheating is never the answer.

[sea]

Okay, have you tried a fight of attrition. Basically get yourself some first aids, sabotage should let you milk them for all their worth. Use hand to hand when he's holding the SMGs and keep your distance if he grabs the knife. When his goons appear you will have to do some crowd control, I suggest grenades and focus on Bryako.

@Fallen Ghost: Cheating is never the answer.

Did I mention that I'm trying to do a pacifist play-through, which means no deaths unless the plot forces me to kill someone? I might have also forgot to mention that as soon as I get close to Brayko, he either pulls the knife, which means I die (or at least run around a lot), or he shoots me in the face and I die even faster.

[Tigranes]

Mike doesn't kill any important character unless you make the call through dialogue. So pacific playthrough, no worries.

Anyway, here's how it goes down:

(1) You are a field agent in a very difficult situation (Alpha Protocol). If you think you should never be forced into difficult situations, then you're asking the game to be both boring and unrealistic.

(2) Yet, being a game, there should always be a way for you to overcome challenges with any given build. There is.

I've got plenty of grenades, maxed out stealth and sabotage, a little in martial arts, but no skill in guns.

Use the free cover you get when battle starts. Don't go up to him, he'll never come off the stage if you don't. Use grenades, and then fire guns (even if you have no skill in them). When he does the cocaine rush, use stealth operative before he knifes you; get behind him; roll grenades. Run away. Rinse and repeat. You can even use martial arts on him if you get the timing right.

(3) Being balanced doesn't mean every challenge shoudl be equally easy for every build, that is nonsensical. You chose not to put any skill in guns despite being a field agent; now you pay the consequences of that choice. The advantages were all the benefits you got from your grenades and stealth and sabotage. That is balance. Balance is not "a one-on-one fight in close quarters should be equally easy for every build".

(4) You would already have found various strategies for beating Brayko with your particular build with the use of the search function. In other words, he is not impossible and he is not 'ludicrous'. You just need to be smart and use your build to your advantage.

[sea]

[double post]

Edited by sea, 22 June 2010 - 09:47 PM.

[sea]

[double post]

Edited by sea, 22 June 2010 - 09:47 PM.

[sea]

(1) You are a field agent in a very difficult situation (Alpha Protocol). If you think you should never be forced into difficult situations, then you're asking the game to be both boring and unrealistic.

I never said this and you know it. Please stop putting words into my mouth. I appreciate difficulty in games; it's things like extremely uneven difficulty curves that I dislike. So long as a game is honest and consistent about its level of challenge, I don't mind too much.

(2) Yet, being a game, there should always be a way for you to overcome challenges with any given build. There is.

I've got plenty of grenades, maxed out stealth and sabotage, a little in martial arts, but no skill in guns.

Use the free cover you get when battle starts. Don't go up to him, he'll never come off the stage if you don't. Use grenades, and then fire guns (even if you have no skill in them). When he does the cocaine rush, use stealth operative before he knifes you; get behind him; roll grenades. Run away. Rinse and repeat. You can even use martial arts on him if you get the timing right.

I've tried this. I simply don't do enough damage, the controls are too clunky, or I get attacked from behind. The only way I've been able to make any headway is by exploiting the game's poor AI and glitches. Frankly, I don't think that this is the intended solution to the boss fight, nor is it one that I should be forced into due to piss-poor design.

(3) Being balanced doesn't mean every challenge shoudl be equally easy for every build, that is nonsensical. You chose not to put any skill in guns despite being a field agent; now you pay the consequences of that choice. The advantages were all the benefits you got from your grenades and stealth and sabotage. That is balance. Balance is not "a one-on-one fight in close quarters should be equally easy for every build".

It's true, I didn't clarify that all characters should be equally viable in all situations. However, it should be obvious that if you are going to include mandatory segments of gameplay, that all characters should be able to complete them - maybe not with the exact same tactics or with the same ease, but "reload 500 times until you glitch through the floor and become invincible" is not what I would call an acceptable tactic.

A bigger problem than that, however, is the way in which the game misleads the player into thinking that a pure stealth approach is viable in a way that doesn't hinge upon the game being glitchy and broken. I worked hard to develop my character to the point where he can use stealth in almost every situation; the game has facilitated this progression and has clearly been designed with it in mind, except in the case of these boss encounters. In these situations, all of that time and effort is thrown out the window because... why? They were too lazy to think of something else? They forgot they were making an RPG? They didn't play-test the game properly? Good balance isn't about making every type of play style effective in every situation; it's about designing situations where there are multiple solutions, each of which are contingent upon the player's decisions in character development.

(4) You would already have found various strategies for beating Brayko with your particular build with the use of the search function. In other words, he is not impossible and he is not 'ludicrous'. You just need to be smart and use your build to your advantage.

I already searched and already tried those tactics. All of them involve different character builds, lucking out due to bugs, or having items that I don't and can't get unless I decide to replay a significant amount of the game. Thanks for insinuating that I am unintelligent, though. I appreciate your backhanded insults.

[themadhatter114]

Yes, combat is hard if you don't invest at all in any combat skill. Yeah, it would be nice if there were a way around every fight, but them's the breaks. Probably not wise to go for a pacifist run with absolutely no combat skill on your first playthrough. Especially since Obsidian has never claimed that there would be a non-violent solution at all times.

That said, it's Brayko's mansion. He lives there. What's the pressing issue plot-wise that you couldn't head to Taipei for a few days before assaulting his mansion? You can gain some XP, decide if maybe you want to invest in some combat skills, and gain a valuable ally that might help you out against Brayko.

Speaking of the Brayko fight, your ally from earlier in the mission should show up to help out or at least right as the dialogue starts. Then you would have to consider losing rep with them based on how you deal with Brayko. But alas...

[Fallen Ghost]

@Fallen Ghost: Cheating is never the answer.

Of course not....I completely 1,000,000% agree with you. However I do not understand why you're telling me this....I never mentioned anything about any sort of cheating at all. I was simply providing some advice regarding how to balance some of the game's broken features noting more, nothing less....surely there's nothing wrong with that now is there? After all is is a widely known issue even amongst reviewers and critics(http://www.metacriti...p;button=search & http://www.escapistm...Bullet-Massage) that this game has some severe balance issues.....until a patch is released we have to quick-patch the game ourselves in order to get it in a somewhat playable state and I can guarantee that my method works just fine.

Edited by Fallen Ghost, 22 June 2010 - 11:05 PM.

[Scarvet]

I had trouble fight Brayko at the beginning as well, but after many failure I have a good grasp of the games system. Check my thread: Do I need AR tree to beat Barkyo?

Yes, for those who did invest any point in guns, Brayko was a nightmare.

But once you get use to Brayko's routine, it is a rather simple attrition---work out how to stay alive, than slowly bring him down.

Rigging grenades on the ground help as well, I suggest you use the time Brayko takes any coke to rig a few on the door he uses later.

You only need to take out gaunts that are too close you and the ones with shotgun, otherwise they have a hard time killing you while you are seek & hiding with the coke fused Brayko.

EDIT: I should also mention Moscow was my first city, and I have not skill in any gun and martial art. I only have a handful of grenades and I didn't use any stimpack when I finally beat him for the first time.

Edited by Scarvet, 22 June 2010 - 11:29 PM.

[Tigranes]

I've tried this. I simply don't do enough damage, the controls are too clunky, or I get attacked from behind. The only way I've been able to make any headway is by exploiting the game's poor AI and glitches. Frankly, I don't think that this is the intended solution to the boss fight, nor is it one that I should be forced into due to piss-poor design.

I'm curious. What makes you think it's piss-poor design?

If we simplify things, there are two obvious conclusions that could be drawn from your experience:
(1) You are not very good.
(2) The game has crappy design and made it too hard.

What leads you to decide between the former and the latter? If the answer is, I've tried various things, was patient, I am fine with a few other games, etc, etc, then we could easily look at someone else's experience and draw the opposite conclusion. e.g. I'm absolutely useless at shooter games and can't aim for my life, yet after dying about 10 times, I worked brayko out and I've beat him comfortably on Hard - at one point just using Shadow Operative & SMGs (which is even less effective).

My point isn't necessarily that you're bad at the game or you're screwing something up - I can't tell that for sure without looking at what you're doing. My point is that you're not moving to the conclusion of poor design in a logical fashion - you're just saying "I can't do this -> I'm frustrated -> This game sucks".

In my mind a more sensible approach is to ask - on this forum there are clearly a significant number of people who find Brayko impossible; and a significant number that find it easy. Some have been able to move from the former group to the latter after discussions here. Where do you draw the line and say "it was too difficult"? I'm not sure - but I don't think you have anything that lets you put the stamp on it, either.

Thanks for insinuating that I am unintelligent, though. I appreciate your backhanded insults.

A little sensitive, isn't it? I'm arguing my opinion, and you're arguing yours, that's all. You posted a long, provocative, angry rant; is it surprising that others who don't feel the same as you will respond in a direct and uncompromising fashion? No insults intended or given, though.

[Pidesco]

OK, I was in more or less the same situation as sea is with Brayko, and it was indeed annoying how Brayko's fight wasn't designed for a stealth character. In fact, if it wasn't for the invisibility glitch and some metagaming knowledge, I would never have finished the fight.

I did finish it, however and here's how I did it:

First there are two places next to the stairs, where, when Brayko is on stage, he can't hit you while you can hit them. Once you take out a bit of his health he'll take a hit of drugs and go on his rampage. When he does that, turn invisible, he glitches out of his melee run and never calls his buddies. Just this makes it a bit easier.

Now, shoot the bugger while he's normal and run away when he's going nuts. Just don't forget to use armor piercing ammo.


Finally, for a little extra damage take all your grenades and stick them to the wall in one of the corners of the side rooms. Brayko always goes there when doing his thing.

[LH000]

What leads you to decide between the former and the latter? If the answer is, I've tried various things, was patient, I am fine with a few other games, etc, etc, then we could easily look at someone else's experience and draw the opposite conclusion. e.g. I'm absolutely useless at shooter games and can't aim for my life, yet after dying about 10 times, I worked brayko out and I've beat him comfortably on Hard - at one point just using Shadow Operative & SMGs (which is even less effective).

No, you couldn't. One experience (experiment) in agreement with hypothesis does not confirm it, while an experience not consistent with hypothesis does prove hypothesis to be wrong.

BTW, what makes you think your conclusion is of any value? From your experience of yourself concluding that your conclusion has any greater relevance (except of entertaining value...), if we make it simple, you may come to two conclusions :
1. You has some kind of a point.
2. You are not intelligent enough to understand problem appropriately.
What make you convinced latter is wrong so you wrote your post in the first time?

What about being less arrogant next time, and have some sympathy with people having problems with game, which are nearly surely caused by non perfect game design.

[sea]

[duplicate post]

I have no idea why, but sometimes when I hit the "edit" button it decides to post twice. Not sure if it's a forum bug of some sort but it's happened several times to me in the last couple of days.

Edited by sea, 23 June 2010 - 06:05 AM.

[sea]

I'm curious. What makes you think it's piss-poor design?

If we simplify things, there are two obvious conclusions that could be drawn from your experience:
(1) You are not very good.
(2) The game has crappy design and made it too hard.

What leads you to decide between the former and the latter? If the answer is, I've tried various things, was patient, I am fine with a few other games, etc, etc, then we could easily look at someone else's experience and draw the opposite conclusion. e.g. I'm absolutely useless at shooter games and can't aim for my life, yet after dying about 10 times, I worked brayko out and I've beat him comfortably on Hard - at one point just using Shadow Operative & SMGs (which is even less effective).

My point isn't necessarily that you're bad at the game or you're screwing something up - I can't tell that for sure without looking at what you're doing. My point is that you're not moving to the conclusion of poor design in a logical fashion - you're just saying "I can't do this -> I'm frustrated -> This game sucks".

Are you reading my posts?

The reason why I think that Alpha Protocol has poor design, at least with respect to its boss fights, is because the game does everything it can to suggest that you are always able to use non-lethal takedown methods. The extensive training session at the beginning of the game, the ability to spare the lives of every major character you come across, the abundance of gadgets, tranquilisers, etc. that are all designed to avoid the death of the enemies you go up against - in every situation beyond these boss fights, the game gives you plenty of options on how to resolve problems. That could be simply sneaking past enemies, it could be butchering them, it could be laying traps for them, incapacitating them non-lethally, etc.

The fact that the game then decides to change the rules on the player by creating situations where certain legitimate tactics are suddenly ineffective, without prior warning to the player, is an example of deliberately misleading him or her. No, the game and the developers do not explicitly claim that you can get through the game without resorting to violence or death. However, the suggestion that players must make use of meta-game knowledge to know this is downright silly. It's like saying that you shouldn't be able to pass a section of the game without looking at a strategy guide. With regards to the story, puzzles, etc. this can sometimes work. In the case of Alpha Protocol, it doesn't work at all - it's not clever, it's just plain frustrating. That is bad design.

A little sensitive, isn't it? I'm arguing my opinion, and you're arguing yours, that's all. You posted a long, provocative, angry rant; is it surprising that others who don't feel the same as you will respond in a direct and uncompromising fashion? No insults intended or given, though.

The tone of your language near the end of your post suggested otherwise, but I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions there. Frankly, the "no, it's not the game's fault, it's your fault" attitude is patronising. Yes, I know that it's common on the Internet to run into gamers who whine and moan because a game is hard. This isn't a case of the game being "hard". This is a case of the game being pretty much entirely unbeatable for certain characters simply because the designers didn't think about those characters when they created particular sections of the game. Maybe some people here have beaten it with the same build as me, but judging from their comments, it took a) a huge amount of trial and error, and b) exploiting glitches in the game in order to do it. If you seriously think that it's a good idea that a player be forced to take advantage of deficiencies in a game's programming as the only method to win... well, I'll simply have to disagree with you.

[naarkh]

Bad title.

Swearing doesn't help and it's not impossible.

But i can agree to you to some extent.

Talking about Fallout(I'm sure you're talking about first two ones but 3rd one is closer to AP as design) haven't you gone in small arms skills in third game? Did it make you think like "Oh i can't convince super mutants not to attack me by talking... This game is ****ing ****!"

You can use some speech skills which are availible in renegade/paragorn in Mass Effect but again boss fights are fights after all, even in there. And in AP you can use dossier information on people while talking or again choose to spare or execute but boss fights are boss fights.

It's not all about Obsidian or Alpha Protocol or any other game really, it's the state of whole sector(aka I r h3ro, i r l33t l0lz)

Developers in RPG or MMO sector generally thought they'd reach to a smaller but dedicated player base since start. But since WoW's success on masses they thought it might be better idea to influence casuals while don't caring much about hardcore or power or dedicated player base.(Or let's say concentrating on casuals since they're everywhere... I mean millions of people play WoW while "not so carebear friendly" games only reach to a few thousand sales) Even if developers would care distributers wouldn't allow them because money is important in life eh?

So that's when instead of supporting/using or thinking about different approaches to gameplay they decided to give people what they want. Players generally want instant glories, feel like a hero, want to "pew-pew" whole way around, want to be "leet", instant/fast paced gameplay which rewards them with no real reason at all... So why wasting resources that only for a few people while you can please a larger audience in other way?(Money, distributor's greed or it can be about even reviews... Just check how many adventures released this year and also check the same thing about FPS's. Not many people like talking, investigating etc but shooting them in the face! Sad but true =/)

It always works in same way in nowaday's games(excluding good old Fallout I-II etc since it's sad but their golden times has gone) so why choosing AP to rant about?

PS : Btw gameplay wise... i'm glad that AP isn't so "casual housewife" friendly that you need to aim at least. Too bad Obsidian gets flamed by "poor combat mechanics" because of that

[Alpha]

Once you get used to the bosses fights you will find it really easy.

[Tigranes]

The reason why I think that Alpha Protocol has poor design, at least with respect to its boss fights, is because the game does everything it can to suggest that you are always able to use non-lethal takedown methods.

But considering defeating Brayko is not the same as killing Brayko, wouldn't using gadgets and stealth to take him down and then extort/spare him fit the spirit of Alpha Protocol perfectly? And you certainly have the option to do that. What you're really saying is that you shouldn't be forced into a close quarters armed combat situation. I can see why that might piss people off, yes - that you can't 'ghost' the entire game and sometimes you're forced to fight. I agree that it's a valid point. I just don't think it amounts to 'piss poor design' 'bull****' 'feed people to various large animals' etc. I don't think it's so 'misleading' - a game is always going to have a variety of situations.

Maybe some people here have beaten it with the same build as me, but judging from their comments, it took a) a huge amount of trial and error, and b) exploiting glitches in the game in order to do it.

Judging from the various Brayko threads before this one, some people certainly use (b), but not others. I guess my tolerance level is different - I was delighted that there was a really difficult battle and it required me to work my brain.

[LH000]

Judging from the various Brayko threads before this one, some people certainly use (b), but not others. I guess my tolerance level is different - I was delighted that there was a really difficult battle and it required me to work my brain.

Problem is that just to use brain and be fairly good at playing the game (not in terms of character build and metagaming) does not always suffice.

I also didn't defeat Brayko so far (and haven't played for some time as don't have time for it right now), so I will describe my experience , which made me convinced that that part of the game done wrong.

So I play on hard, have fairly high stealth - but not high enoug to enable SO of level when you can move invisible (if i'm correct - from description -it works in a way that I'm invisible for few seconds, but cannot move [to maintain invisibility] ), high skill in pistol with chainshot lvl 2 and little skill with martial arts (plus 2 points in sabotage or TA, i dont remember which) .

Also, I'm experiencing technical problems throughout the game - most importatnt one is (here i don't know how you name it in english) "shuttering" coused probably by loading game world while playing (as my graphic card is quite good)- this is problem -as I have unfortunately find out - even in little location of Brayko fight. (also I have problems with aiming; like moving of cursor is not continuos; I would say that it is connected to issue mentioned before) And I know (and knew) that this might be solved through modifing some ini files, I had reasons not to do so until now, but that is not a point.

So in my first try I took him some health firing from pistol, while he did some dmage to me too, then he went to cocaine frenzy and finished me - i tryed to fight him using MA. In second try I learned how to take him health in gufight without taking any damage, I chainshoted him right before knife passage (this way it is possible [for my character] to reduce his health maximaly to 50%) then used
some gadget improving my fighting capabilities plus frenzy ability and tryed MA again; but I failed. I tred maybe once more, then I realized that it is most probably not possible this way. So I tryed running away from him while he uses knife [although it seemed little weird, running from pistol vs knife fight] - then shuttering occured, which made it (nearly) impossible. So I tried few times more, then once tried using shadow operative, finding out that this level of it is useless [maybe in combination with running it wouldnt be] and (nearly) litteraly run out of possibilities.

Now try to tell me that game is done right. I'm not saying that the fight is impossible, but it "is impossible enough".